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  1. #1

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    This thread originated in the FMIC Setup pics thread but I split it because they went 2 totally different ways I feel. Here is what started it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trance4c
    No.. very cool! I will put mine up, but I'm unhappy with it being routed next to the hot side. I have some lab work to do...

    But this is awesome, I wonder what your lag time though is like.. what is the diameter of the intake pipe off the IC? post ic that is, into the throttle body. Looks a lot bigger than the U bend off of the compressor. I've seen your times though.. looking nice.. fimiliar IC brackets too hahahahaa... interested in the flow dymanic here.. I wonder what would happen if you put your AFM right in front of the TB...
    You cant put the AFM next to the throttle body. It wouldnt read right. The positive pressure would fuck up its readings...
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luni
    You cant put the AFM next to the throttle body. It wouldnt read right. The positive pressure would fuck up its readings...
    Positive pressure?

    Stop talking like you know what your talking about MR2 boy :lolhittin

    Its been done.. and runs. I have pics and the 1/4 mile slip of the setup like that.. that proof enough?

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trance4c
    Positive pressure?

    Stop talking like you know what your talking about MR2 boy :lolhittin

    Its been done.. and runs. I have pics and the 1/4 mile slip of the setup like that.. that proof enough?
    I want to see this.

    It will work, but it wont work right.

    The flapper would still work but the data would be false. The problem is the flapper measures air flow as in liters or cubic feet. But the fuel mixture must be metered based on mass, as in pounds or grams.

    So when it measures a cu ft of air, it assumes that CF is at atmospheric pressure, and weighs .075 lbs. If you move it downstream into the post-turbo area, at 1 bar, a CF now weighs .150 lbs.

    At 1 bar, the engine is using twice as much air mass, but the AFM is still reading the same flow rate as if you were not boosting.

    If the engine is using 36 lbs/min (250 CFM @ 1 bar) , but the ECU only send enough fuel for 18 lbs/min (250 CFM @ 0 boost), your in big trouble.

    The AFM is calibrated to read volume flow rates at atmospheric, and the ECU converts that to a mass flow rate based on the standard mass at atmoshperic pressure

    The AFM measures "cubic feet per minute"

    The ECU needs to know "pounds per minute"

    The AFM can't tell the difference between a cubic foot at atmospheric (.075 pounds) and a cubic foot at 1 bar boost (.15 lbs.) But a cubic foot of air a 1 bar weighs twice as much as a cubic foot at atmospheric.

    If the AFM says "we're flowing 250 CFM", then the ECU will send fuel for only 250 X .075, or ~ 18 pounds of air per minute. But if that 250 CFM is at one bar boost, then its really 36 pounds of air per minute.

    Pretty big problem if you ask me.

    This has been tried and discussed by the MR2 community and it didnt work right. The AFM reads atmospheric pressure and a gen2 isnt a speed density system. It could cause you to run dangerously lean. And when you run dangerously lean, your ECU advances ignition timing and without any correction your engine goes boom. I know what Im talking about. Ive prolly read more about it than you have. I dont really care that youve seen it "work". The engine will definately run. Id be more interested in seeing a dynograph showing the a/f ratios across the band and this actually working without the use of blackboxes for corrections. If you can show me something to refute my claim Ill give you your internet victory. But if not, youre wrong and the physics are against you upfront.
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  4. #4

  5. #5

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    And hes using no corrections or black boxes? This theoretically should not work. Again theoretically I say because its speculation cause it just isnt done, but the logic is still all there.

    Id like to contact him and talk to him about it.

    Do you know who he is over there? Could you get him to drop me a line at admin@celicatech.com or come post in here. Im genuinely interested in this.

    Sorry I came across as a dick or knowitall but based on the theory of the AFM it just shouldnt work. It isnt a speed density system, his a/f numbers should be all fucked up and he should be running lean.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luni
    And hes using no corrections or black boxes? This theoretically should not work. Again theoretically I say because its speculation cause it just isnt done, but the logic is still all there.

    Id like to contact him and talk to him about it.

    Do you know who he is over there? Could you get him to drop me a line at admin@celicatech.com or come post in here. Im genuinely interested in this.

    Sorry I came across as a dick or knowitall but based on the theory of the AFM it just shouldnt work. It isnt a speed density system, his a/f numbers should be all fucked up and he should be running lean.
    haha.. shut up luni.. I'm a dick to.. thats how I ment it to come across and so did you so shut up foo haha

    As for the rest.. I read it like I do most of the board these days... I don't, sorry. All I know is, it works.. it runs and apparently there is 'proof'. People are always squaking about dyno runs and seeing sheets etc etc.. well there is some 'concrete' evidence. Don't like it.. look else where or ignore it. As for 'theoretics', thats just a fancy word for bench racing on a messageboard, rice 101. foo. I don't agree with half the crap I've seen or hear or many people take as 'common knowledge'. Half of its crap, everyone has their own perspective.. make power how you wish and go for whatever number you like, its just all in the same box.

    This is not the ONLY person running with an AFM in this setup configuration that I am aware of either. Good luck. over and out.

  7. #7

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    Some f00 with an MR2 apparently has done it too. However I was under the impression it didnt work correctly according to the thread. Heres his setup



    Dunno.

    Honestly the only thing you would really gain by doing it if it actually worked though would be able to blow off and not have to recirculate. Thats the only thing I could think of that would be a benefit to doing such a mod.
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  8. #8

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    I do have to say I disagree with your statement "everyone has their own perspective".

    It either works or it doesnt. There is no opinion or personal theory. You take everything you know about it (all the above information I posted is contained right in the big green book, made by Toyota themselves) and figure it out for yourself. If you were wrong, you go back and figure out why you were wrong.

    At this point Id like to find out HOW it works, and more importantly where were we (the people like me who said it cant be done correctly) wrong so we might learn from it and learn some more about the fucked up programming that is inherent in our cars.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luni
    Some f00 with an MR2 apparently has done it too. However I was under the impression it didnt work correctly according to the thread. Heres his setup



    Dunno.

    Honestly the only thing you would really gain by doing it if it actually worked though would be able to blow off and not have to recirculate. Thats the only thing I could think of that would be a benefit to doing such a mod.
    haha.. dude... actually, this setup would REQUIRE you to vent to atmosphere. haha

  10. #10

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    as far as i know the AFM will read find based of how it works (from what i know)...the AFM is based on air FLOW....if x amount of air crosses the flapper door then x amount of fuel needs to go...if the amf is before the turbo then it will "suck" x amount of air then push it....so if its after it will be pushed through the afm....

    This would almost work better due to the temp sensor now being after the turbo...but if its before the intercooler then it can work agasint you as the ecu takes your intake air temps as a way to adjust its fuel maps (not by much but its there).
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  11. #11
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    Malcom does NOT have any black boxes. He has said to me that he has since decided that his initial logic in using it was flawed. None the less, it seems to work well for him, and he is keeping it. He also has 100% stock fuel. His car is a damn anomoly.

    None the less, my opinion is that it doesn't matter. The afm just flaps open and calls it a day anyways. Its a damn on / off switch, pretty much. The only thing that I'd see being out in a real way is the intake temp correction. It would be way hotter, thus giving you 'worst case scenario' maps. Other than that though, it would work.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luni
    I do have to say I disagree with your statement "everyone has their own perspective".

    It either works or it doesnt. There is no opinion or personal theory. You take everything you know about it (all the above information I posted is contained right in the big green book, made by Toyota themselves) and figure it out for yourself. If you were wrong, you go back and figure out why you were wrong.

    At this point Id like to find out HOW it works, and more importantly where were we (the people like me who said it cant be done correctly) wrong so we might learn from it and learn some more about the fucked up programming that is inherent in our cars.
    Ya.. well.. you let me know how much real world proof you can find for each mod you do.. and let me know what kind of proof you can get that the direction of mods most people go is correct. Most people bolt on for power-adders. Thats not the right route, infact.. so many people are unaware of how to make a setup tuned correctly (even if it is on the stock ECU, the sensors have to be reading CORRECTLY) and efficiently.

    Anywho.. you said exactly what I mean and actually contradict yourself "It either works or it doesnt. There is no opinion or personal theory. You take everything you know about it (all the above information I posted is contained right in the big green book, made by Toyota themselves) and figure it out for yourself. If you were wrong, you go back and figure out why you were wrong."

    Tell me how you measure how things 'work'? How do you know an upgrade part that MIGHT get you 5-10hp real-world conditions is providing you that real 5-10hp gain? A butt-dyno? no, thats not factual. But most people do not take the time to dyno and get the right equipment to make accurate readings. Your right, if it doesn't work.. you have to go back and figure it out. That doesn't mean it either works or it doesn't. Its a grey science, and in each climate it is different.

    People need to start to think real-world.. not bench racing. On 16psi, I'm still very rich on my a/f.. but I have some some fuel mods to my stock system that most people would say, 'woo.. aren't you missing this? or shouldn't you have that there?' HA! I say, I'm not running lean above 14psi, but I'm on stock 440's.. where is the proof then? Its in front of my eyes, but most people wouldn't believe me... there are always alternative ways of going about things, remember that. There is no one true and perfected way to increase performance. Its a bunch of work and parts that have to work together in a symphony of smoothness. Tuning, its all in the tuning.

  13. #13

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    the afm argument isnt whats important in this thread... the real issue is this, clayton is a dick..... and we should all hate him... agreed?
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  14. #14

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    WOW.. what a statement...
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  15. #15

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    What I meant Clayton was either something works or it doesnt.

    There isnt really opinions on what works and what doesnt. Thats hard factual data we are talking about.

    Now I guess I was wrong, but based on what we know about the AFM (again, its workings and how the sensors read are published in the BGB for everyone with a brain to pick through) it shouldnt work. It is an interesting discussion nonetheless.

    Flyspyder, Clayton IS a dick. He never said he wasnt. But I dont hate him lol. Thats just how he is.
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  16. #16

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    Oh and one more thing Clayton, as far as I know, even an upgraded CT26 isnt capable of maxing out your stock fuel system. It cant flow enough air to max it. Even at 22 psi it isnt capable of maxing it. What it IS capable of is making you run hotter, and closer to detonation, so the minute something doesnt go right your engine CAN go bye bye. Not saying it will, but it could. Nobody has ever ran out of fuel on a CT26 on a stock motor, in any trim on the turbo. And if they have, they havent published it. Ive NEVER seen a dynograph with an A/F table on it, at ANY power level on a CT26 go anywhere near lean. The turbo just cant move enough air to do it.
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  17. #17

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    advantages of a blow through setup (maf near TB) is that the maf measures air entering the TB. Boost leaks before the TB will not cause the car to run rich. and the ignition timing will be more accurate/more conservative because airflow and intake charge temps are measured more accurately.

    i think it's about time you stopped messing around with the damn AFM and the people that make the MAFT (maf translator) ... that way you can get an LS1/LS6/LSX MAF and a MAFT and it will bolt up to the 3sgte.

    The MAFT even has idle, mid , high adjustments and an external adjustment (nitrous, 2nd stage of boost ...etc) al in one pacakge ...

    http://www.lmperformance.com/2551/1.html

    vr4 and DSM guys use this alot...and it works great if you have the correct version of the software
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  18. #18

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    the new maft... does speed density conversions too .
    http://www.maftpro.com/

    the only issue specific to the 3sgte is the reverse voltage issue. Shoot them an email ...figure out if it is an issue ... other than that, pull out a manual and draw up the wiring conversion ...

    i think this kind of stuff is what we should be really talking about IN HERE. not in hte 'advanced tuning forum' ...this needs to become a standard.

    The AFM-R for hte 3sgte (if you search mr2oc you may find it, this about 4 years old) dynoed a 35hp gain over the stock 3sgte maf on a stock turboed car with zeroed out settings. This is just to give you an idea of the potential...

    edit: here's the old MAFT application for the mk3 supra, doesn't the mk3 supra use the same maf as the 3sgte ?
    http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/ite...FT~eq~~Tp~.htm

    if so, then the LS1 Maf conversion should be plug and play with this.

    -Nuke
    Last edited by nuclearhappines; 09-05-2005 at 01:09 PM.
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  19. #19

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    For this to work the ECU would have to actuate air/fuel ratios based on throttle position and RPM (and temperature), not just AFM and RPM - Either that or the ECU runs REALLLY lean on-boost.

    Everything luni has said is 100% correct - that is, as air density increases as pressure increases. The AIRFLOW measured by the ecu however, as it has no way of adjusting for pressure (or even detecting the presence of it) MUST detect FAR LESS air than is actually entering the system.

    It's not about "ive seen it done before's", the fact is that if this has been done before the ECU, as ChrisD has noted, MUST use throttle position as a primary actuator for fuel maps, or else the maps WOULD be (no room for discussion here, it is a plain and simple fact) waaay too lean.

    This however contradicts the facts that you can modify the engines based on the air-flow meter reading, because if these post-turbo AFM's do work, then this shows that the throttle position sensor is in fact used for fuel calculation and modifications of the airflow meter signal does nothing.

    Either way however, these cars under NO circumstances would run as 100% stock under a spooling turbo throttle, unless the ECU runs a single AFR from 0+ psi. With no way to measure the actual air entering the system, you could be producing 2psi@4000rpm or 25psi@4000rpm, the ECU wouldnt have a clue either way (assuming the AFM readings are totally disregarded due to their inaccuracy at pressure and the ECU is fueling based on T/P)

    So what is it? Does the ECU fuel based on throttle position primarily over the AFM signal? If so, why cant we just use resistors and discard the AFM all together? Does it only use it under open-loop? Is there something else i dont know about?

    Theoretically this shouldnt work, full stop. In practice there is something in place with the 3s-gte that is allowing it to work. I want to find out what it is.

    Elliott

  20. #20

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    it's probably something like this:

    3sgte ecu never measures boost. It always uses airflow (before the turbo to calculate fuel).
    tps isn't really a big factor in fueling, except for detecting wot, switching in the fuel pump at full flow etc (probably)
    temp is a big deal though...

    the shitty 3sgte AFM goes to 100% flapper opening at any significant amount of airflow which dumps in a ton of fuel (typical for most 3sgtes)
    however with this setup there is 1 major difference...temperature... the ecu sees a hot temperature and now takes out alot of the fuel that it dumped in possibly making the car run better than it had before (where the flapper was 100% open at any significant boost because of the shitty afm, however it was also in a cold and thus EVEN richer fuel map)...

    i think the temp sensor is what probably saves this setup from being complete trash...

    either way...if you take trash and you move it somewhere else, it doesn't necessarily become less trashy... you take a shitty AFM and put it wherever you want... i don't think it's worth the hassle honestly.
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  21. #21
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    You would think it would also retard timing though with hotter temps, no?
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  22. #22

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    Wouldn't it ADD fuel at higher intake temperatures?

  23. #23
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    Haha.. I might be a dick, who knew?!?!

    na, seriously though it has brought this conversation into a better light for it. We do not necessarily know how the ECU works in all variables, and we might never. We can talk theoretics all we want, but now we have more technical discussion here. Maybe the AFM closer to the throttle body shouldn't work.. infact, I don't think it would. It is a mystery to me, but not something I am willing to try. I believe that things are made the way Toyota intended them to be. I agree and believe that if the AFM was in this spot, temp sensors would be tripping out and make it want to dump more fuel, but that isn't the case.. the AFM is already maxed on its resolution for reading. As Chris and many others have measured, by 3K the thing is already dumping max load. I see it all the time on the wideband readings (it actually makes me a better driver because I try to keep a decent a/f and not just plow my left foot onto the pedal.. gas is expensive! haha). Anyway, before I go writting a book here, the AFM mod seems to work for some but just because it works, doesn't mean I believe in it and would do it. Thats not a good basis for going off mods to do to your own car. Each setup is different, even if they are the same base engine. For instance, I do not run over 13psi on 93 pump gas, but when I want more power I use a 100 mix and that changes the conditions of the combustion. I think anyone that is wanting real power has to address these concerns to have a solid platform. You might be able to build a drag car that will pump out 3X the hp but last you only 1 quarter mile run, or you might have a track car that has to last so peak hp is sacrificed for reliability. Ya, so I need to finish this post and shut up.. I believe it all in heat control personally.

  24. #24

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  25. #25

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    i'm with alltracman78 on this. a 5sfe can run 13psi on pump... what's wrong with your 3sgte clayton .

    -nuke (promoter of the 5sfte that will eventually come in here and outrun y'all)
    2005 C200 Kompressor sport
    K&N Filter, HKS 2.5" throttle pipe, Apexi WS2 Muffler, DIY Voltage Stabilizer, Intrax lowering springs, H&R rear 19mm sway bar, EBC redstuff pads, EBC 13" front rotors, Stop Tech front brake lines, VDO Boost gauge @ 7psi, Greddy Iridium Plugs, Sprintbooster
    On the way:HKS FCD's (12psi), Remus testpipe (2ndary cat), vortech 2:1 FMU

    my blog:
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