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  1. #1

    Default Dr Tweak's 3SGTE into ST Swap Adventure

    This thread covers some unusual troubles along with the solutions to swapping a 3SGTE into a '97 ST. I tried to followup on all of the different problems, but feel free to ask questions.

    This first post is a summary of everything that happened, and here is the list of all the threads in reference to the swap.
    ------------------------------
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8402
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8819
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8615
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8959
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8753
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8780
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8389
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8067
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9142
    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/sho...d.php?p=101915
    -------------------------------

    Background info: This car is a '97 Celica ST automatic, the car was converted to 5-speed and got the 3SGTE using a GT tranny. For the entire swap writup please visit www.phoenixtuning.com and www.northeasterntuners.com.

    The first problem that I ran into was these two broken parts. First is the cold start injector switch:



    Which I found a replacement for from another car, and the Power Steering Idle-up sensor:



    Where you can see the two nipples that the vacuum lines go to are broken. I replaced this part with one from a 4AFE Corolla PS Pump which fit perfectly.

    Okay, so the next problem I had was trying to locate the "FC" (fuel cut wire, the one that shuts the fuel pump off when the engine is not running, not the one that cuts fuel when boost gets too high which is handled by a different sensor). The engine I had was a '92 or newer, but the wire was not in the place it was supposed to be. Finally I figured out what happened: when the engine importer sent us the engine, they forgot to include the third ECU plug (the one that has wires going to the chassis, incluiding the FC wire). So we called them up and they promptly sent us the plug, no problem. The thing is, they sent us the plug from a '90 era 3SGTE ECU, so the FC wire wasn't on it, and that's why I was going nuts trying to find it. Once I figured that out I just had to put a pin in that spot... but it gets better

    The next problem was that the engine wouldn't start, all the wiring was done and it was just right. Here's my original post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tweak
    Okay so the 3SGTE swap here is all wired up and it's been primed, cranks over great, but it won't start. There is no tach readout when cranking, and the diagnostics threw a code 12 (missing tach signal from distributor). I checked and double-checked the wiring for the STA wire at the ECU and it's fine. I checked the wires for the distributor to the ECU they are all fine, check the resistance and that checks out.

    Tomorrow I'm going to see if I get a signal at the STA pin on the harness when cranking, that's one thing I didn't check. The other thing is, from the point that that the stock harness ends (it needs to be extended about 30" as I'm sure you know) to the ECU I have regular (unshielded) wire going the rest of the way to the ECU. In the stock harness there are several inches of unshielded wire going to the ECU so I thought it would be fine, but could this be the cause of the problem?

    Has anyone else had this problem and if so what was the cause?
    So for some reason the ECU wasn't reading a signal from the distributor (cam position signal) so it wouldn't start. I tried EVERYTHING and tested every last wire. FINALLY I discovered the problem. I had a hunch after figuring out that they had sent me the wrong plug, so I did some research with the part number on the ECU and found that IT WAS A '90 ECU!!! So of course the pin locations on the '90 and '92 harnesses are totally different (well, quite a bit anyway). So it took me a little while of repinning the connectors to match the '90 pinout, and the engine fired up on the first try.

    Okay then next, the engine would start, but it wouldn't stay running. It was like it couldn't keep idle. Here's my original post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tweak
    Okay, so I figured out that the reason why this engine wouldn't start is because they sent us an earlier year ECU than the engine. So, this morning I repinned the connectors to match the older pinout, and the engine fired right up! Woot! Except...

    Then it died. It will start and run for about 3 seconds and then die. If I hold the throttle open, then it will run fine, so I know that I'm getting spark and fuel and the timing is on. But it won't stay running! It's like the Idle Air Valve isn't letting air through.

    I've done a bunch of tests. First up I ran the diagnostics and got a code 51 which seemed to point to the TPS. Then later on I got codes 24 (intake air temp) and 31, AFM circut. After clearing the codes and trying again, there are now NO codes at all.

    Anyway, I tested out the circuts for the TPS, AFM, and ISC. All of the wiring is correct, I did get a couple unusual readings on a couple things. I'm going through it again right now and taking better notes.

    Everything on the TPS checked out for resistance as well as voltage at the ECU, EXCEPT that when the throttle is open the IDL wire reads 11 volts instead of 5 like the BGB says it should. Everything else is right.

    I'll post the results of the other tests in a little bit as I go through it again.

    Any ideas???

    This is driving me crazy, I've never had this much trouble with a swap before! ARG!
    I spent the whole day doing electrical tests, and then when looking at a diagram I realized that the ISC (idle control valve) takes air in through a tube, which I didn't have hooked up behind the AFM. Once I routed a hose there, it started up and idled perfectly

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWOT




    And here's the pinout for the '90 and the '92 3SGTE:

    Last edited by Dr Tweak; 08-24-2005 at 04:40 AM.
    -Dr Tweak, Toyota engine swap wiring expert extraordinaire

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  2. #2
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of
    MrWOT has donated to the forums! MrWOT helped get Luni's MR2 back on the road!

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    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  3. #3

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    Oh comon, I'm a moderater on a vBulletin forum too and it's not that hard
    -Dr Tweak, Toyota engine swap wiring expert extraordinaire

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  4. #4

    Default

    tweak... i tired to hook you up, but there are 2 problems... 1 as you can see by my attempt, unless i delete peoples comments, it just creates one big mess of a thread... the other problem is, i can not merge from threads i am not a mod of (genera auto), so we would need an admin for this.

    my recomendations would be to type up a new post as a sort of swap diary and copy paste the old info into it, if you wish to share all your experiences during the swap. this would create a much cleaner post with all the info in one place
    Boosted. Tuned. Ready.

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  5. #5

    Default

    hmmm so uh, are there any admins that are active that can do it? It'll be way easier to merge everything than it will be for me to try to copy and paste every single comment... and I don't want everyone's comments deleted, they're fine.

    Luni?
    -Dr Tweak, Toyota engine swap wiring expert extraordinaire

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  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tweak
    hmmm so uh, are there any admins that are active that can do it? It'll be way easier to merge everything than it will be for me to try to copy and paste every single comment... and I don't want everyone's comments deleted, they're fine.

    tweak, ill look into it for u, but as you can see from the one thread that i was able to merge, i think it just gets messy and confusing when people are reading a thread that is combined with 8 others. i think a better way to do this would be to write up a swap dairy, similar to what defgeph did. that way all the info you wish to share is presented in one clear way.
    Boosted. Tuned. Ready.

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  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagos
    tweak, ill look into it for u, but as you can see from the one thread that i was able to merge, i think it just gets messy and confusing when people are reading a thread that is combined with 8 others. i think a better way to do this would be to write up a swap dairy, similar to what defgeph did. that way all the info you wish to share is presented in one clear way.
    Hmmm... okay well how about this. I'll write one long post at the beginning (can you move the post in this thread that I started it with up to the top) and then if we can just dump everything else in that way everyone elses comments are in here too, how about that?

    *edit* Nevermind I see you fixed it up already.
    -Dr Tweak, Toyota engine swap wiring expert extraordinaire

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  8. #8

    Default

    Tweak, I tried to combine them, but what happens is it does them in chronological order and it messes up the entire thread. I moved this thread to the archives (so I didnt pooch your original thread) and started in on it, but even after merging the first 2 it was screwed up so I decided i didnt want to do it as it just wasnt right.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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    This thread is gayer than Richard Simmons singing a duet with Elton John in a bath house.

  9. #9

    Default

    Oh I gotcha. Well thanks for the try, I guess the first post list all the thread anyway so it's there for reference.

    -Doc
    -Dr Tweak, Toyota engine swap wiring expert extraordinaire

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  10. #10
    Blowing Stereotypes, ya heard? Snafu Vanilla Ice gets more respect.. Snafu's Avatar
    Snafu has donated to the forums! Snafu helped get Luni's MR2 back on the road!

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    Good stuff man. I'm glad to see all this info on the 3SGTE swap. I know there have been some words said that were not proper, and I appolgize for the way I've acted, but you're a good resource to this site. Good job man
    1988 CRX DX - Drag Car
    Vitara/TT rod Z6 - Sinktrap Manifold - GM9 turbo

    www.mydragcar.com/snafu

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu
    Good stuff man. I'm glad to see all this info on the 3SGTE swap. I know there have been some words said that were not proper, and I appolgize for the way I've acted, but you're a good resource to this site. Good job man
    I appreciate the respect Props on the turbo ST, maybe I'll hit you up with some questions when I do mine.

    Now make sure those HMT guys know what's up with the Doc!
    -Dr Tweak, Toyota engine swap wiring expert extraordinaire

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  12. #12
    Blowing Stereotypes, ya heard? Snafu Vanilla Ice gets more respect.. Snafu's Avatar
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    Haha. I understand where you were comming from in those posts, and yes, the guys on HMT are assholes, and sometimes it rubs off

    Depending on what type of engine I decided to go with, I will be giving you a call this winter.

    I plan on keeping my kit on, but getting my hands on a 20v head/harness and a GZE bottom end. I think 10-12 pounds on a 20v head would rip. I'm still debating if I want to still run the T25... we'll see
    1988 CRX DX - Drag Car
    Vitara/TT rod Z6 - Sinktrap Manifold - GM9 turbo

    www.mydragcar.com/snafu

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu
    Haha. I understand where you were comming from in those posts, and yes, the guys on HMT are assholes, and sometimes it rubs off

    Depending on what type of engine I decided to go with, I will be giving you a call this winter.

    I plan on keeping my kit on, but getting my hands on a 20v head/harness and a GZE bottom end. I think 10-12 pounds on a 20v head would rip. I'm still debating if I want to still run the T25... we'll see
    That's a fantastic combo, especially if you're using the full GZE short block. I'd go with a T3 Super 60 or possibly a T3/T4 hybrid, assuming of course you can't afford something really nice like a GT30 or something

    The Super 60 can be had for pretty near $400 from www.turbocalculator.com which is pretty fair.

    Where you from anyway?

    -Doc
    -Dr Tweak, Toyota engine swap wiring expert extraordinaire

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  14. #14
    Blowing Stereotypes, ya heard? Snafu Vanilla Ice gets more respect.. Snafu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tweak
    That's a fantastic combo, especially if you're using the full GZE short block. I'd go with a T3 Super 60 or possibly a T3/T4 hybrid, assuming of course you can't afford something really nice like a GT30 or something

    The Super 60 can be had for pretty near $400 from www.turbocalculator.com which is pretty fair.

    Where you from anyway?

    -Doc
    I'm from Minnesota.

    I can get a T3 Super 60 for a pretty damn good deal; My T25, a Volvo T3 in need of a rebuild and 50 bucks. I might jump on that pretty quickly.

    Since I've spent the past year learning to weld (yes, I know, you all love my flux core, aids infested downpipe), I have a lot of confidence that I'll be able to make my manifold and a custom intake manifold for the 20v.

    Either way, I want to get a bigger turbo, different exhaust manifold this winter. I might not do a 20v swap, I'll see what I can do as far as funding goes.

    I might try to tackle the intake manifold first. Since the injector boss' arn't in the manifold itself, it should be pretty easy to get an aluminum flange, some aluminum tubing, and to build a sheet metal plenum for it. Only thing I have to worry about is mouning all the sensors.

    As far as the exhaust manifold goes, I want to develope one of the Ram horn type. either that, or an "elf" manifold. We'll see what this winter brings.
    1988 CRX DX - Drag Car
    Vitara/TT rod Z6 - Sinktrap Manifold - GM9 turbo

    www.mydragcar.com/snafu

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