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  1. #1

    Default Opinions on next step for power

    Well, i have about a grand that i wanna spend right now. Im tryin to figure out what will give me the best bang for the buck. My car runs really rich right now and i wanna get it tuned (smt7) and get rid of that afm, then i can tune and turn up my boost a bit too.
    But i did a lot of reading about the NX wet nitrous kit. Im thinking about that maybe instead because it acts as a charge cooler and of course will give me more power. I was thinking of a 50 shot. On the mr2 board people are saying its more like a 70shot because it cools the intake temps as well. The only question is, if i run about 10-11 psi and run a 50 shot, Would it give me more power than the smt7 and tuning?

    I guess there are soo many other things that come in effect, but i was just curious about peoples opinions.
    Paul S.-
    89 Celica Turbo 4WD- Jdm ST-185 swap, CT20B turbo, ST205 A2W I/C....

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  2. #2

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    Do you have your BOV vented to the intake?

    Id say if I had a G to play with, Id probabally get cams and headwork done.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  3. #3
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    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  4. #4
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    Default

    Indeed build up your motor before you start spraying. ATS has cams for 300 each. and many other parts.

  5. #5

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    It depends on your goals. If you are going to spend this $1000 and never spend another dime, I would recommend a ct20b or ct27 and call it a day. However, if you plan to upgrade further, put it in the bank and save for EMS. If you are doing more than BPU (exhaust, intake, intercooler, fcd and boost controller), an EMS should be the next upgrade. Although the AFM will POTENTIALLY WORK up to 300whp, it was really designed for about 180whp. The maps in the standard ECU really only work well up to about 240whp. My second upgrade would be a small to medium turbo upgrade. My third would be cams and other head work. Ideally, you would do these all at the same time.

    P.S. I think piggy backs are very 1990's.

  6. #6
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    I agree with Gman, either a 20b turbo, or a FMIC.

    Cams will give you a little increase, but under 300 hp, there not going to make a HUGE difference.

    NX kit sounds good to me as well.

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  7. #7
    Senior Member CelicaGT4 will become famous soon enough

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    Get an EMS.....you'd be amazed with how much you can increase your power with tuning.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CelicaGT4
    Get an EMS.....you'd be amazed with how much you can increase your power with tuning.
    Not a bad call either....

    Whats your ultimate, realistic plan for the car is the best question to ask. It makes no sense to buy parts twice.

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  9. #9

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    Whats the point of having an EMS without cams you can tune.

    In my opinion, cams and adjustable cam gears should come before an EMS. Youd be amazed at how much power under the curve and response a nice set of well degreed cams with the right adjustment on the gears will get you.

    Besides, would you rather be using 100 percent of what you have available all the time or shoot a little bit higher, and keep in the 80 percent.

    Ive just seen too many people blow their engines up because of lack of proper tuning.

    At the same time the stock intercooler on a GT4 is a pile of crap. You could always buy a ST205 Top Mount WTA intercooler, or get yourself a budget front mount IC and a water injection kit. Proper intercooling is a must. That IC is good for over 500 hp. Actually thinking about it Id say you will gain more and be better off with what you have if you have a good intercooler. Then that way all the other VE mods you do to your car will increase your output that much more, and be that much more effective.

    Get the IC before you go standalone.

    On that note Id also recommend an aftermarket intake manifold as well. Ive seen gains as high as 60 hp with a CT20b on a 3SGTE with just cams, and an intake manifold on an otherwise stock engine.

    I think too often people talk about power gains in terms of peak power and not stuff you can use.

    If you increase your VE on your engine and you tune for it correctly you increase your area under the curve and your peak power. Area under the curve is ultimately what matters to most people because thats where 80 percent of your power is made unless you drive around at 7000 rpm all day long.

    On the same note, you shouldnt be even thinking about doing all this stuff until you at least have an exhaust, and maybe even brought your suspension back up to par (upgraded shocks and springs and even maybe bushings).

    So Id say if your suspension is good, then go the above route. If it isnt, get yoruself some upgraded components and a bushing kit and install them. You might even be able to do some other stuff with a G assuming you get a good deal on the stuff. But too often I see people upgrading their speed but they dont pay attention to their braking/suspension systems.

    Thats my 2 psi.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  10. #10

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    The reason i was wantin to run some nitrous was to cool my intake temps, it will give me lower temps and it will give me a nice power boost at the same time. I would only plan on runnin a 50 shot. (and i can get a nitrous setup for pretty much cost )
    But, now i realized my turbo has a bit more play in it than i like, so i might get that rebuilt, get a midpipe. Not sure if i can afford a tuner after that.
    I think my best option would be to rebuild turbo, do MP, and tune with the smt7 and get rid of that damn AFM.
    Thats what im leanin towards right now if i can afford it.

    In the future i plan to be able to run a low 13sec 1/4 mile and a reliable daily driver, lol, probly not the best mix. :lolhittin
    Last edited by All4Traction; 08-14-2005 at 07:33 AM.
    Paul S.-
    89 Celica Turbo 4WD- Jdm ST-185 swap, CT20B turbo, ST205 A2W I/C....

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  11. #11

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    Another option is runnin through my head. If i get cams, will adjustable cam gears be needed? I assume so. What would cams do for an increase on a fairly stock motor?

    Then i could run a 50 shot of Nitrous to cool the intake temps. I can't see cams and nitrous having a negative effect on eachother (Ie.blowin up). Then i could get a MP and rebuild the turbo. I might be stretchin my budget, but ill see.
    Last edited by All4Traction; 08-14-2005 at 07:45 AM.
    Paul S.-
    89 Celica Turbo 4WD- Jdm ST-185 swap, CT20B turbo, ST205 A2W I/C....

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  12. #12
    Senior GT2 Member Aust162 is on a distinguished road Aust162's Avatar
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    I'm not that knowledgeable but i'd definately finish off the exhaust 1st, then rebuild/hi flow the turbo.
    I thought running aftermaket cams on a stock ecu made the car run crap, idle badly etc?

    Atm my next step is a full EMS. (i;ve done the exhaust,fmic,mbc, intake, susp) I'm doing this now becuase i can get the EMS cheap, next step will be h/g and hiflow ct27

    just my 2c.
    1985 ST162 Celica Sx - 3SGTE SW20 swap.
    Dynoed: 219fwhp @ 13psi (17/3/06)w/wolf3d + 50trim ct26
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  13. #13
    Senior Member CelicaGT4 will become famous soon enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aust162
    I'm not that knowledgeable but i'd definately finish off the exhaust 1st, then rebuild/hi flow the turbo.
    I thought running aftermaket cams on a stock ecu made the car run crap, idle badly etc?

    Atm my next step is a full EMS. (i;ve done the exhaust,fmic,mbc, intake, susp) I'm doing this now becuase i can get the EMS cheap, next step will be h/g and hiflow ct27

    just my 2c.
    I've pushed the stock head gasket up to 24psi with my t3/t4 60-1. I'm a firm believer in the stock OEM headgaskets on the 3s. Unless you take your head off for porting/resurfacing purpases or do ARP head studs, keep your HG unless you're hitting crazy boost levels.

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  14. #14
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean's Avatar
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    Yes, you have to get adjustable cam gears if you get cams, or your never going to optimize your cam timing, making the modification null.

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  15. #15

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    Whats the point of having an EMS without cams you can tune?

    About 20-30whp and smooth power delivery

    In my opinion, cams and adjustable cam gears should come before an EMS. Youd be amazed at how much power under the curve and response a nice set of well degreed cams with the right adjustment on the gears will get you.

    properly degreed larger cams cause LAG. Although, you will be able to make a higher peak number and the torque drop off in higher RPM's will not be as pronounced, I am not sure I would recommend cams for "area under the curve" because that term really refers to an early powerband.

    On that note Id also recommend an aftermarket intake manifold as well. Ive seen gains as high as 60 hp with a CT20b on a 3SGTE with just cams, and an intake manifold on an otherwise stock engine.

    I don't agree with this advice for someone on a budget. Aftermarket intake manifolds typically get rid of the TVIS which will, once again, increase LAG. Also, you are adding a level of complexity that really should not even be considered until you have a standalone EMS.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by G-man
    Whats the point of having an EMS without cams you can tune?

    About 20-30whp and smooth power delivery

    In my opinion, cams and adjustable cam gears should come before an EMS. Youd be amazed at how much power under the curve and response a nice set of well degreed cams with the right adjustment on the gears will get you.

    properly degreed larger cams cause LAG. Although, you will be able to make a higher peak number and the torque drop off in higher RPM's will not be as pronounced, I am not sure I would recommend cams for "area under the curve" because that term really refers to an early powerband.

    On that note Id also recommend an aftermarket intake manifold as well. Ive seen gains as high as 60 hp with a CT20b on a 3SGTE with just cams, and an intake manifold on an otherwise stock engine.

    I don't agree with this advice for someone on a budget. Aftermarket intake manifolds typically get rid of the TVIS which will, once again, increase LAG. Also, you are adding a level of complexity that really should not even be considered until you have a standalone EMS.

    Ok. I disagree with your flat statement that degreeing your cams and adjustable cam gears hurt spool. They can help it if they are set up properly.

    I will retract my statement about the iaftermarket ntake manifold, in favor of my liking of area under the curve and spool characteristics for anything less than 300 or so whp.

    I still stand by my statement, that if youre going to spend money on an EMS, to even reap the potential of an EMS you NEED to have properly degreed cams, because it opens up a whole world of shit you can do to improve spool, customize your powerband the way you want it, and more.

    I also will stand by my statement that if you are serious about reliable power you can do something with, you should take your 1000 dollars, save it, add to it, and get cams, an EMS, tuning, and an intercooler if you want to extract the most from your car.

    If you are just looking for a mild upgrade and more reliability with what you got without getting greedy for boost pressure numbers and hp numbers, then get a front mount intercooler setup, some water injection, and possibly a mild suspension upgrade (again depends on how well you shop around, and what deals are going on right now or at the time you chose to spend).

    Here are some tidbits and a dynosheet from the mr2oc I have recently read about spool charastics and EMS and cams and other fun things about modding.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyB
    There has been a lot said on this board about turbo spool and many dyno comparisons of different turbos and the point at which they cross the 200ft/lbs mark. I'm going to list many of the elements that affect turbo spool.

    Most attention has been concentrated on choosing the right turbo. Too large a turbo is always going to be slower to deliver torque on demand. The physics of it is simple: larger wheels have more mass and take longer to spool to effective speeds. This is always going to be true, but it is not the whole story.

    The turbo kit and exhaust components have a huge impact on how quickly the turbo will spool. You can see this by comparing the dyno results of the GReddy TD06 kit versus those of the ATS kit. Both use the same basic turbo, but the average ATS kit easily reaches 200 ft/lbs hundreds of RPMs prior to the average GReddy kit. This highlights how important it is to have a less restrictive downpipe and a well executed wastegate setup. While the exhaust manifold also has an impact, it is my belief that no one has really built an aftermarket exhaust manifold for the 3SGTE that shows significant flow improvements over the stock manifold. It's not that it cannot be done, it's just that no one has really taken a systematic approach to designing one.

    Flow through the cyclinder head and the engine has a very significant impact on spool. While most folks focus primarily on increasing displacement to produce more flow in the spool region, proper head work, valve selection and compression ratios also have a very significant impact on a motor's ability to spool a turbo. Similarly, the intake manifold plays a huge role in determening flow in the spool region. Most aftermarket manifolds are tuned to flow at higher RPMs while giving up some flow in the spool range. The best spool-time flow can be obtained with a gen2 intake manifold with a properly controlled TVIS plate, which I believe is the best choice for setups up to the 320rwhp range.

    The IC also plays a role in spool. The lower the pressure drop across the core, the faster the turbo will appear to spool primarily because any extra pressure drop will require the turbo to build up that much more pressure to overcome the drop. The same is true of the intake. I've seen very few serious intakes on 3SGTE engines. Most of them are nothing more than regular pipes with a couple of 90 degree bends and a filter on the end. A properly designed intake with gentle bends and a velocity stack to reduce turbulence at the intake point can eliminate as much as psi or two of pressure drop across the intake which means that the turbo will reach the desired torque point just that much faster.

    Cam adjustments, particularly the adjustment of the exhaust cam, has a very significant impact on spool. Advancing the exhaust cam several degrees will release more pressure and heat into the exhaust manifold providing the turbo with more energy to spool faster. The drawback is that the more the exhaust cam is advanced, the more top end you will give up. The ATS results showing a TD06 producing 200 ft/lbs by around 2700RPMs is a perfect example of this. Granted that the motor used is a 2.2L stoker and the turbo and kit are fairly good, but it is obvious from the shape of the torque curve that a lot of top end torque was sacrificed to deliver low-down grunt.

    EMS tuning also has an effect on spool. Running the AFR slightly leaner and retarding the spark advance at the point around 0 vacuum to around 7-8 psi can yield a nice improvement in spool.

    Boost control also plays a significant role in getting a turbo to spool quickly. A boost controller that holds the wastegate completely shut until just before the boost target is reached is always going to give much better spool than one that allows the wastegate to crack open many psi before the target.

    Thermal coatings can also play a role in obtaining faster spool. Coatings on the cyclinder tops, cylinder head and valves can keep heat from escaping into the cooling system and puts it to work spooling the turbo instead. Thermal coatings on the exhaust manifold and turbine housing do the same.

    Extrude honing the compressor housing and turbine housing reduce frictional losses and these will translate into slightly faster spool. Divided turbine housings (like the one on the stock CT-26) also help spool by reducing the interactions between exhaust pulses that are 180 degrees from each other. Nozzle area makes a large impact on spool. The smaller the nozzle, the faster the spool but the more top end you will lose for it. The same is true of exhaust turbine A/R on turbos where you have more than one A/R to choose from. A smaller A/R gives you faster spool but reduces top end flow.

    Contrary to popular belief, I have seen no evidence that ball bearings help a turbo spool faster. Ball bearings have no less friction than oil film bearings (probably have more, actually).

    So, as you can see there is a lot more to getting the kind of spool you want out of any given turbo than merely choosing the turbo itself or stroking the motor. While it is the case that you will never be able to hit 200 ft/lbs at 3000RPMs if you slap a T78 on your 3SGTE, it is the case that you don't always have to buy a different turbo if the spool is not quite to your liking.
    About the cams hurting spool. I only have to show you the following

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyB

    I hope Noshoes doesn't mind my "borrowing" this image. This image shows a set of dyno pulls in which Noshoes was playing around with cam timing because he suspected that maybe he had degreed a set of cams improperly (which he didn't, but that is not pertinent to this thread).

    You can see how the 200 ft/lbs torque point can be made to vary by several hundred RPMs just by advancing and retarding the cams several degrees. To some folks, this could be the difference between and acceptable turbo and an unacceptable one and yet all these pulls are on the same turbo and setup with only the cam timing changing.

    Several of those runs were testing out the intake cam which have more effect across the entire torque curve. In general, the exhaust cam trades spool for top end.
    Oh and I just want my general opinion out there that I dont really care too much for piggyback units either. The SMT7 is a damn good piggyback unit but it is still a blackbox. I decided after my suspension goes on my car, the next mods Im doing on my car is a Hydra Nemesis ECU, a CT27 or equivalent turbo, exhaust, intercooler, and some fuel system mods.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  17. #17

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    Ya, what im lookin for is a mild power gain, nothin huge, but i want something i can definately notice. Im thinkin seriously about a 50 shot of nitrous (acts like water injection)

    Ill figure out what i can do for an upgraded turbo, or maybe just rebuild mine.
    I have a supra turbo on with the 3sgte compressor, so i think just a rebuild of that would do good since i dont plan to run more than 11-12psi since i have an FCD but no tuning.

    Ill also get some of my exhaust done.

    I just dont think cams and cam gears are exactly the best bang for the buck right now.
    Paul S.-
    89 Celica Turbo 4WD- Jdm ST-185 swap, CT20B turbo, ST205 A2W I/C....

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  18. #18

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    I still dont think Nitrous is the best thing for you right now. Once your turbo gets to a certain point (yours is already upgraded too), and you have an intake and exhaust, and youre running 12 psi or higher, you are starting to run out of fuel. You would be looking RIGHT at the limits of your stock fuel system, and when pushing limits you have such a higher chance for failure. I dont think nitrous should be used unless you have fuel system mods (at least larger injectors and the SMT7 to tune for it).
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  19. #19

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    The only reason im thinkin about nitrous is because i can get it for super cheap.
    Its hard to decide what to do, i want to be able to feel a good power difference, and i should be able for $1k or under. I probly wont be able to spend any money on mods for my car after this for about a year.(after im done school )

    I have a feeling im gonna end up goin with what i originally wanted to do.
    The Smt7 will set me up for any mods i wanna do down the road. Ill open up the exhaust a bit and see what i wanna do about rebuildin my turbo.
    Last edited by All4Traction; 08-15-2005 at 06:10 PM.
    Paul S.-
    89 Celica Turbo 4WD- Jdm ST-185 swap, CT20B turbo, ST205 A2W I/C....

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  20. #20

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    I would implore you to not take the cheap way out on power. You get what you pay for, and like I said, I can just see you blowing your engine because something in your fuel system isnt up to par or you are already approaching the limits of it. I also think instead of rebuilding your turbo, you should look at a CT27, or a CT20b. You will see more power from either of these turbos than an upgraded ct26 from what Ive seen.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  21. #21

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    The only problem with upgrading a turbo is the $$. Itll cost me a grand atleast just for a new turbo. Thats why i think just some good tuning, and exhaust will help a lot.

    My plans are to eventually run a mid 13 sec 1/4 mile, i dont plan on building up this car anymore than that (I might desire more power once i get there, but this is my goal) I figure i will eventually need some sort of tuning, but not enough tuning to buy a full standalone ems.
    I dont think my turbo will be able to run a mid 13 sec 1/4.

    All I wanna do is see what would my $1k be best spent on.
    Last edited by All4Traction; 08-15-2005 at 08:15 PM.
    Paul S.-
    89 Celica Turbo 4WD- Jdm ST-185 swap, CT20B turbo, ST205 A2W I/C....

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  22. #22

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    Power costs money dude. You cant take shortcuts or you will blow up your car.

    If you want to augment what you already have, spend your 1k on a downpipe, an exhaust, and if you dont already have one, an intake. If you have any left, and you dont have any, get some gauges.

    If your hybrid turbo is in decent condition, it should be powerful enough to put you into low 14s, high 13s.
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  23. #23

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    Im not tryin to cheap out, im just tryin to put my money where it is best spent. Ill just have to keep thinking things through and talk to people.
    Thanks for the input guys, i got some different options that I can throw around in my head now.
    Paul S.-
    89 Celica Turbo 4WD- Jdm ST-185 swap, CT20B turbo, ST205 A2W I/C....

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  24. #24

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    Actually Ill retract my timeslips.

    NoShoes ran like a 12 with a CT26. I think he ran an 11 with a CT20b.

    Thats on an MR2, so subtract maybe half a second off his timeslip and with the proper tuning thats what youd get.

    However he had standalone and cams and shit on both of them.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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    - Shadow's Army - Commander In Chief


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    Originally Posted by surfergravity
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    This thread is gayer than Richard Simmons singing a duet with Elton John in a bath house.

  25. #25

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    I think i have come close to making up my mind. Im gonna see if the smt7 ever comes out, lol. Ill also do some exhaust (midpipe). Ill wait to see what i wanna do about an intercooler (Upgrade or WI) because winter is comin up soon and i wont have to worry about hot intake temps.
    Last edited by All4Traction; 08-16-2005 at 06:20 PM.
    Paul S.-
    89 Celica Turbo 4WD- Jdm ST-185 swap, CT20B turbo, ST205 A2W I/C....

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