CelicaTech Main Page  CelicaTech Member List CelicaTech Image Gallery CelicaTech Data Garage Chatroom CelicaTech Forums Search CelicaTech Forums Contact CelicaTech
Closed Thread
Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. #1
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD's Avatar
    ChrisD has been to an official Ogopogo Meet! ChrisD has donated to the forums! ChrisD helped get Luni's MR2 back on the road! ChrisD helped bring Chaos back to the Dragon ChrisD helped KM replace his 5-year-old clutch.

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Calgary AB Canada
    Posts
    6,467
    Images
    913

    Default Thinking about swapping? READ THIS FIRST

    ...

    Posted by Trance4c

    My hope is that others will also add to this thread but I will prune it and edit posts as I see fit so that the information flows the way it should.

    **NOTE** THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR QUESTIONS!

    __________________________________________________ _

    We continually get people asking us questions of this nature -

    "1)How hard would your rate this conversion? Including wiring problems and such, just over all.
    2)How hard is the 3SGTE engine to install over all?
    3)What would be the best choice for a poor college student [Big Grin]"

    OR

    "how dificalt is the st205 swap im geting a front clip so will my mecanic have any problims instaling it and how long should it take to install it"

    Now, if this is what your after.. your in the right place, so keep reading! First though, let me tell you why these posts PISS US THE FUCK OFF!

    __________________________________________________ _

    The problem is that these questions are VERY vague!

    Vague is defined as:
    1. Not clearly expressed; inexplicit.
    2. Not thinking or expressing oneself clearly.
    3. Lacking definite shape, form, or character; indistinct: saw a vague outline of a building through the fog.
    4. Not clear in meaning or application. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
    5. Indistinctly felt, perceived, understood, or recalled; hazy: a vague uneasiness.

    How are we suppose to answer any questions you have, when your not specific about any one question and we don't know your mechanical background? Maybe you've only had the mechanical background to change your oil, maybe you've replaced motors before in other cars.. we don't know because YOU DIDN'T TELL US!

    Its like looking on a Tester's model box, how hard is it to put together? They give you a little number, lets say '3'.

    So you want a vague reply to your 'how hard is this swap?' question.. here is my vague answer = '6'

    Look at that however you want, but its frustrating because you have no clue what scale I'm using, you don't know if '6' is the top or in the middle, and wtf does '6' represent in the first place?!?!

    Get my drift? Be more specific and you'll get MUCH better responses. In the mean time, don't break down into profanity, thats the quickest way for everyone to be turned off by you and not help you.

    __________________________________________________ _

    With all that being said, these are resources you should look through first:

    Here on the Force Induction forum you can look in the upper right and you see 'Show Topics from last 10 Days'. Pull that down and select 'Show all topics'. THERE IS LOADS OF INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!! Do yourself a favor, it looks like a lot of pages, but GO THROUGH THEM ALL. More than likely the answers you are looking for are here (I'll bet that is the case 98% of the time).

    Start Looking through the Archive Section as well - Archive Forum

    __________________________________________________ _

    An example of importers for GT4 Clips -

    Jarco
    Jemco
    ATK
    Rising Sun
    SOKO
    etc.. etc.. etc

    __________________________________________________ _

    Now, knowing your OWN mechanical background and everything we have just gone though you should be able to sum up what is needed and the effort load you feel its going to take. So all those questions of 'how hard is it?'.. you just answered that yourself because you took the time to look through these resources!

    Now your 1 set closer to being able to do this swap, loads more to go. Good luck!

    __________________________________________________ _

    Questions from the other threads from here on:
    __________________________________________________ _
    Can you used the front axel's from your clip?

    No, because the axels are for the AWD transmission which has equal length axel's. The transmission is completely different and so are the axels. Your best bet is to first figure out which kind of tranny you want to use. If you use the stock S53 5S-FE tranny, used your stock axel's. If your going to use convert an MR2 transmission or the AWD transmission do some searching, but check here first:

    AWD conversion thread

    Information on the MR2 E153 transmission - Credit to outside Source for original information.

    Custom axle thread

    Clayton
    Last edited by ChrisD; 12-03-2009 at 08:14 PM.
     ...to the topTop

  2. #2
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD's Avatar
    ChrisD has been to an official Ogopogo Meet! ChrisD has donated to the forums! ChrisD helped get Luni's MR2 back on the road! ChrisD helped bring Chaos back to the Dragon ChrisD helped KM replace his 5-year-old clutch.

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Calgary AB Canada
    Posts
    6,467
    Images
    913

    Default

    ...

    Posted by ChrisD

    So, you're looking for more power? You think an engine swap is what you need? Well then, better start to do some research first. We'll try to keep this thread as informative as possible, for your benefit.

    I'll list out some common questions in bold .

    Okay so you want to do a swap, presumably to your normally aspirated (NA) celica, replacing the existing engine with a 3S-GTE from a Celica GT-Four.

    What exactly is involved in swapping? How do I solve the problems that I will encounter?

    This is a hard question because every swap is different. There are many combinations including the year and model of your car, and the year and generation of the engine you are using. Also, it may be harder if you do not have a front clip and will involve quite a bit more work.

    To give you an idea on what is involved with one of the harder swaps, check out the "how to" I wrote describing exactly what must be done for the ST185 engine swap into an ST165. http://www.gtfour.ca/howtoswap.html

    As you can tell, mechanically there are very few problems, however there is a lot of work to be done with the electrical systems.

    Where can I buy a JDM front clip?

    Well this has been asked a thousand times on the board, which you could easily find by searching. However, there are a few options. There are numerous online companies, such as www.jarcoinc.com which have a very good reputation for their japanese engines. Here's my suggestion: shop around to your local engine importers. The 3sgte is a very hot engine in japan and should be well known to a good importer. You can do a few things to seperate between the good/bad importers... Ask for the EXACT mileage of the engine/clip. Since you are going to buy a clip (I'll get to that in a bit), your importer should know. If the odometer is no longer attached, ask for a photo of it before you start. Just because they say it should be "around 30,000 miles" that doesn't mean a thing. There are high and low mile cars out there. Next ask for the EXACT compression test results, and ask if they do a leak down test. Again, if they say "it's probably good since I doubt they'd send us a bad engine"...well keep looking. Also see if they can get you pictures of the car before it was cut, which might give you a sense of how long the engine has been sitting. I had 4 different views of my clip before I even committed to the deal, plus compression results and an odometer reading photo. Some engines sit for many years in japanese junk yards, which can be very troublesome to the engine. So I'd advise asking a LOT of questions. If you would like to get a front clip or engine from the place that I got mine, email me and I will put you in contact. He will ship to canada and the usa.

    How much will my front clip cost?

    Well thats one of the worst questions you can ask us. We don't know. It all depends on your importer. Some quote prices but fail to include shipping costs and duty fees. Personally I paid $3050 canadian for an st185 front clip shipped to my door. This did not include any body panels or the hood, which are important to look into if you plan on using the factory intercooler.

    How can I transport my front clip?

    Most towing companies can offer a tilt deck service. You can also rent a trailer for a truck, or uhaul has some options I'm sure. Keep in mind this clip weighs over 1000 lbs.

    How much does the swap cost start to finish?

    Another REALLY hard to answer question. Well you can do it really cheaply, or more expensively should you wish. Well, to start, do you have the right tools? Get 2 sets of sockets, extensions of various sizes, a pivot for your socket wrench, a very large breaker bar, a good torque wrench, tie rod puller, screw drivers, wrenches (open and closed end), pliers of various sizes, fender covers to protect your paint, you need access to an engine hoist, lots of wrags, engine cleaner, hand cleaner, a big thing of liquid wrench, and much more that I'm forgetting. Tools are pricey.

    Okay, well you could just drop in the engine as it sits...but have you thought about doing any maintanence? This is a used engine and I'm sure it's coming close to time for a little refreshing. I'd suggest getting all new belts, a new water pump, distributor cap and rotor, new plug wires and plugs, you'll need a bunch of new gaskets, fuel filter, air filter, and there's more. It adds up quickly. What about a new clutch? Now would be a good time since the engine is out. Are you planning on running a lot of boost in the future? Maybe you might want a metal head gasket and upgraded head studs. Then you need your head remachined to ensure a proper seal. There are numerous troublesome gaskets that you might need to replace along the way. You also need to have a new exhaust installed, since your old one won't bolt up to the turbo. Plus you'll need all new fluids. Oh and do you have the Toyota factory repair manuals? Might be a good idea!

    Then, are you doing any modifications at all?

    And that doesn't include labour...

    How much would a shop charge to do this?

    Well first you have to find a shop willing to try. Many places won't be willing to tackle this type of thing. Then once you do find a good shop the rest is any body's guess. You could be looking at a thousand dollars to significantly more than that depending on his/her competency and the amount of work you are having them do. My suggestion is to do it yourself if you can.

    If you aren't looking for much hassle then make it as easy as you can on yourself! If you own a '91 GT then do your best to find a '91 gt4! Once you step across generations then you are opening up a whole new can of worms here. The 4th gen and 5th gen are close in many respects, but have many differences between them. Just try to be simple unless you don't mind what comes along with it.

    Do you know how to solder? Well, you better find someone who does or start learning. There are many electrical parts you may end up needing to extend wires, swap over little plugs here and there and re route wires completely. Another fairly large task is that the main wiring harness needs to be significantly extended in order to pass through the hole in the firewall. I think I measured a 32" extension, one wire at a time. Note that not all wires are the same, some are shielded, some aren't, some make wierd connections to other wires, etc. I suggest leaving it the same way you found it, just longer.
    Last edited by ChrisD; 02-07-2005 at 10:42 PM.
     ...to the topTop

  3. #3
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD's Avatar
    ChrisD has been to an official Ogopogo Meet! ChrisD has donated to the forums! ChrisD helped get Luni's MR2 back on the road! ChrisD helped bring Chaos back to the Dragon ChrisD helped KM replace his 5-year-old clutch.

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Calgary AB Canada
    Posts
    6,467
    Images
    913

    Default

    ...

    Posted by ChrisD

    How hard is the swap in general?

    Well my answer is 25.8. Just like Clayton said, we don't know how skilled you are. You might not know. How confident are you taht you can take something apart and put it back together again? Do you have the time and patience to do something like this? It might take a long time to finish if you aren't a mechanic. It's definitely doable, so I'd suggest reading through a BGB and seeing what confuses you and what doesn't.

    Do I lose reliability with the swap?

    Well yes. You are now running a car with much more horsepower than it was intended to handle. Some have a lot of problems, some don't. Keep in mind the engine is an OEM engine on teh celica alltrac.

    Will I pass emissions tests with the swap?

    Maybe. Some do and some don't. Make sure you have good catalytic converters and with a healthy engine you should be okay. However, for the visual inspection if there is one, you might not pass if you are missing things like the EGR system. Check with your local requrements.

    What tools are required to perform the swap?

    Good question. There are quite a few. Some very obvious, some not so obvious. A quick glance at the BGB will probably scare you, since there are about 6 million special service tools (SST's). Oh well not to worry. I'll try to be complete as possible.

    First go out and get 2 cans of Gunk's Liquid Wrench . It will save you hours of swearing. Next on the list should be a monster sized jug of orange hand cleaner. Don't get the "smooth" versions, they suck at removing grease, so get a nice gritty one. Okay while you're in that section you should probably get some engine cleaner, and brake cleaner since you'll undoubtedly brush against your exposed disks in the process. Okay, next best tool is a big monster breaker bar with a 1/2" drive. It's worth the cash trust me. You will also need a set of socket adaptors, and you can also get a socket pivot peice which comes in handy quite a lot for getting at wierd angles. Then of course get socket set, two sets are best since you will either break or lose one at the wrong time (I have broken 6 sockets so far and 1 ratchet). A few special sizes I'd recommend would be 17mm, 19mm, 23mm, 24mm, 25mm, 26mm, and 27mm. I don't remember exactly which ones out of those you need, but it never hurts to have more tools. Also get a good ratchet. Speaking of sockets you need a special one for removing the axle bolt. It will be a big sucker, usually black in colour. You WILL break a normal socket. Another good tool is a tie rod puller, which is basically a big fork. It can pull double duty and do other things as well. You will need a good mix of extensions too. Maybe a 3", 6" and 10". You will also need a good torque wrench. If you are changing your timing belt then you will either need Toyota's SST for when you are trying to loosen the crank bolt, or you have to make something. I had the tranny off at the time for mine, where I basically took a beice off of an old BBQ and drilled some holes in it to match up with the flywheel bolt holes, bolted it in and it caught on one of the little guiding tabs for the tranny (one of the little "nubs" on the block). That way the engine doesn't turn when you are trying to loosen the bolt from hell. Did I mention that a lot of people use air tools? Also for changing the T-belt you need a very small allen key, small torque wrench, and a set of gapping plates. (yeah I know I don't know the EXACT names of everything...haha) Also to remove the crank pulley you need a harmonic balacer puller. You cant make this but you can likely rent one for free from a local parts store. Also get a set of open and closed end wrenches. You'll need to get in a few tight spots at times with them. 12mm and 14mm are the most common. Also get an assortment of pliers and screwdrivers. Make sure to have a bunch of solid wooden blocks ready for safety. Of course, you will need a hoist, in order to lift the engine/car/clip. Anything else? Probably. But this is a start.

    Will a 3S-GTE fit into my ST Celica?

    Not directly. The ST uses a 7A-FE engine, which uses the "A" block. The 3S-GTE uses an "S" block, hence the given names. The 2 blocks use different locations for their engine mounts, which means that if you are searching to install the 3sgte to your ST, you need to fabricate custom engine mounts. Although it can be done it is quite difficult and time consuming, not to mention costly. A better choice might be to use a 4A-GZE engine. This is a supercharged ("Z") engine that uses the "A" block, and makes fairly good power depending on the year. It is available on many JDM cars, also on the 1st gen MR2's. As always, GET A FRONT CLIP. A bare engine will make the swap a million times more difficult.

    Thank you to kuya1284 for providing me with this additional information on the motor mount situation for ST owners:

    ST owners don't need custom mounts. They can use the GT/GT-FOUR mounts. As far as securing them (on the driver's side), that's a different story. Mine were welded on.

    Thank you to Snafu and Matt from alltrac.net for supplying this additional information about swapping into an ST:

    He has a 91 ST, and has had the thing up and running for a while. I've talked with him, and here's what needs to be done differently.

    Motor mounts. Here's the deal. All of them match up, except the passanger side. On an A series engine, the mount is just before the strut tower, where as on an S series engine, it's basically right on the strut tower. A simple bracket can be fabricated, no prob.

    Wiring is the bitch in this. He switched over the whole cluster harness, and replaced it with everything from the JDM harness. A lot of it won't be used, mainly because the ST does not have as many features as the GT4. simply disconnect those wires. He is also using the electronic GT4 cluster, so no need for a speedo cable, which you can run the engine harness through. This eliminates the need for extending the wires (even though you could have done this with a normal swap).

    Other than that, It's basically the same as a swap on the GT.

    If I buy all of the GT-Four rear drive parts, can I make my normal celica 4 wheel drive?

    Very common question. OK, well yes it is possible, but not feasible by any leap. Very few have attempted and even fewer have succeeded. Okay, first thing that you have to know is that the GT-Four is an entirely different platform. It was specifically designed to hold up to the extreme stresses of the WRC, high horsepower, and a very strong 4WD system. It has been designed to be able to hold up to pretty much anything the typical person can throw at it. The NA (normally aspirated) model Celicas were not designed the same way. They were not designed to accomodate a 4WD system. There is no channel for the drive shaft to go to the back of the car. The suspension is much different, and is valved for the lighter NA celicas. (The GT4 weighs several hundreds of pounds more) That being said, the suspension systems are not directly interchangeable in the rear. In order to fit a drive shaft under the car, you would have to custom weld a channel for it to fit. This would weaken the chassis in 99.9% of cases, not to mention you would be entering into a whole new level of attention to detail, because a mistake could mean risking your life. Even if you managed to "fit" a complete 4WD system into your car, you would be battling with cost. For the price you would spend on this conversion, I would imagine you cuold buy a complete Alltrac, and have enough money to do some significant modifications. If you really want 4WD, buy a GT-Four. If I haven't convinced you enough, and you still wish to proceed with this conversion, please talk to qatar11 on this board for his advice, because he is one of the few crazies that has decided to give it a shot. Quatar you definitely have much respect from us for giving this a shot. We wish you good luck and can't wait to see your beast on the road!

    This so far is the best attempt at it Click Here (Credit to 6GC Celica site)
    Last edited by erstechen; 11-02-2009 at 03:24 AM.
     ...to the topTop

  4. #4
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD has much to be proud of ChrisD's Avatar
    ChrisD has been to an official Ogopogo Meet! ChrisD has donated to the forums! ChrisD helped get Luni's MR2 back on the road! ChrisD helped bring Chaos back to the Dragon ChrisD helped KM replace his 5-year-old clutch.

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Calgary AB Canada
    Posts
    6,467
    Images
    913

    Default

    ...

    Posted by ChrisD

    If I plan on modifying the 3S-GTE engine for more power (or even if I didn't) would it be a good idea to put in a larger fuel pump?

    Yes, I think it is a very good idea that you replace your old fuel pump with a new one. (What we are saying here is 'yes, UPGRADE!' keep reading) The stock 3SGTE one (Keep in mind, yours will most likely NOT be a 3SGTE Turbo fuel pump, as the 5S-FE Celica's use the N/A fuel pump) can usually hold up well when it is NEW, however they are very expensive and tend to be the source of some major problems when running higher HP and when old and tired. I am actually pretty confident that a bad fuel pump caused my engine #2 to blow up, at a measly 14psi.

    If you plan to run more than stock boost 10psi, know now we are telling you to upgrade to a larger flowing fuel pump.
    If you don't, it is advised to replace that old pump. If you run more boost, it is guaranteed you will not flow enough fuel and will blow up your engine on the N/A 5S-FE pump (as shown in the following graphs lowest pump reading, the gold x line)

    All Credit goes to Julie http://www.wolfkatz.com/



    Walbro makes excellent pumps that are cheaper than oem. I just installed a 255lph one on my car and it works great, and is way cheaper than the next best toyota alternative. I've heard people complain about noise, but this is because of the way that they have wired in their pump. See below for more details on that topic. Anyways, I personally recommend the walbro for any 3sgte application.

    The Walbro's run about 100USD plus shipping from most places. I got mine from cyber auto, www.fuel-pumps.net , they have another name too... Comes with everyting needed to install and it was actually pretty easy EXCEPT for the stupid rusted out bolts. haha. Add to your list of Toyota parts a gasket for where the fuel pump goes (it's a big round rubber one), and if you are draining your fuel from the tank you'll need another gasket for the drain plug...

    Fuel pumps can be picked up from our community vendors as well:

    The primary fuel parts supplier to the 3SGTE world - Wolfkatz
    Click here for the Wolfkatz site

    ATS Racing
    Twos R US
    Chico Raceworks

    An Example of Fuel pump flow Click Here (Credit to MR2OC)


    How fast will my car be after the swap?

    This is hard to say, because it depends on the specific model of celica, the year of engine used, and mods. However, a few members have made small videos of their cars acceleration after the swap, to give you a general idea.

    Four's car
    abatardi's car

    How do I get my fuel pump to operate properly?

    In order to get the fuel pump to operate, you need to make sure it is getting power. You can do this by either:

    A) The easy way: Bridge the terminals B+ and FP in your diagnostics box to ensure that the fuel pump receives power when the ignition is turned on. Some say this accounts for a 5hp gain since the fuel pump is turned on full-power all the time (bypasses the fuel pump resistor). This could cause you to run slightly more rich at idle. After this, you no longer need the fuel pump resistor.



    or

    You can connect the blue/orange (fat wire) with the blue/black wire, from the fuel pump relay. Do not confuse this with the blue/red wire (thin), which is the "FPR" signal from the ECU. If you do this, you must ensure that your circuit opening relay is connected. You could also strip down your harness and make this connection closer to the ECU, so that you can throw out some extra unneeded wire. You can then also throw out the wiring to the fuel pump resistor. Obviously, this route also gives the fuel pump full power at all times.

    or

    B) The more difficult way: implement the 3S-GTE fuel pump wiring in your harness. You can do this by replicating this diagram:



    In either case, you must realize that the fuel pump is operating differently. If you decide to buy a Walbro fuel pump, it will run very loud when getting full power. (ie. when bypassing the fuel pump resistor) Read this thread for more info: http://www.celicatech.com/forums/sho...ghlight=wiring

    C) Setting up a dedicated power source to the fuel pump - when doing this please ensure the use of the appropriate relays! Click Here (Credit to MR2OC)

    How do I make my A/C work on my swap?

    Sometimes people report that their A/C works perfectly following the swap. Other times, it does not. Toyota uses several different wiring schemes to operate their A/C systems, and sometimes these are not directly compatible. In this case, an easy fix is to make your A/C magnetic clutch engage, by providing it 12V power. The following thread outlines how to do this, and provides the relevant diagrams for you as well:

    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414

    How do I do the wiring for my swap?

    There are MANY ways that you can go about doing the wiring for your engine swap. The following discussion explains some of the more common techniques that people use. If you are not able to do this yourself, you could send it to someone who knows what they are doing as well, and pay them to do it. The advantage is that you would receive back a complete plug and play harness.

    If you wish to do this yourself, see: http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6359

    If you wish to have someone like me do this, see this thread: http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1459

    Where can I get the engine wiring diagrams that I will need?

    Celicatech is the source for all your swapping needs. This should cover almost any engine swap you will do.

    ECU Pinouts for several engines



    1988 USDM Alltrac 3S-GTE ECU Pinouts
    1990 USDM Alltrac 3S-GTE ECU Pinouts
    1993 USDM Celica ECU Pinouts - All Engines (page FI-79 for 3S-GTE)
    1994 Euro-spec GT-Four 3S-GTE ECU Pinouts

    Typical original engine:
    1989 Celica 3S-FE/3S-GE/3S-GTE Engine Control (TCCS)
    1990 Celica 4A-FE Engine Control
    1990 Celica 5S-FE Engine Control
    1995 Celica 7A-FE Engine Control
    1995 Celica 5S-FE Engine Control
    2002 Celica 1ZZ-FE / 2ZZ-GE Engine Control

    Typical new engine:
    1990 Celica ST185 3S-GTE Engine Control
    1991 MR2 T 3S-GTE Engine Control
    1994 Celica ST205 3S-GTE Engine Control and ECU pinouts
    2000 Camry 1MZ-FE (V6) Engine Control
    2000 Lexus LS400 1UZ-FE (V8) Engine Control
    2005 Scion tC 2AZ-FE Engine Control

    Other diagrams which may be useful:

    1991 MR2 T
    Charging System
    Combination Meter
    Engine Compartment Cooling Fan
    Power Source
    Radiator Fan and Air Conditioner
    Starting and Ignition

    2000 Camry 1MZ-FE (V6)
    Charging System
    Combination Meter
    Engine Immobiliser
    Power Source
    Starting and Ignition

    Lexus LS400 1UZ-FE (V8)
    Charging System
    Combination Meter
    Power Source
    Starting and Ignition

    2005 Scion tC 2AZ-FE
    Combination Meter
    Engine Immobiliser
    Power Source
    Ignition
    Starting

    More info to come...

    Chris
    Last edited by ChrisD; 10-15-2010 at 09:59 PM.
     ...to the topTop

  5. #5
    CelicaTech Supporter Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold
    Trance4c has been to an annual Dragon Meet!

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Darkside of the Moon
    Posts
    4,033
    Images
    203

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CabrioletCam
    Hey,
    I drive a 1990 Celica Cabriolet with the 5SFE engine and an automatic gearbox, I want to swap it for the 3SGTE engine and put in a 5SFE manual gearbox. I dont have much mechanical experience but I know a bit about all the parts and was wondering what was involved in doing this and will the manual FWD gearbox line up ok with the 3SGTE engine and are the bolts that hold on the bell housing going to be long enough etc.?? Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated because I want a nice celica as there isnt very many on the road here in Australia. Thanx.
    As long as you use a Transmission that is going to bolt to an S series block

    The original FWD Celica's in the USA came with the 5S-FE, before we know what will bolt up we need to talk about how the engine designations work.



    How does Toyota code engines?


    The number 5 in the beginning means its the 5th generation, the S is the block code. So according to Toyota this is the 5th generation of the S block. After the dash is the FE, or F for economy valve angle and E for electronic fuel injection. Other Toyota engines like the 4A-GE work along the same line, that is the 4th generation of the A block, but the G stands for the sports valve angle head and again E for electronic fuel injection.

    Now that we understand how the designations work from that Toyota era, we can look at what will bolt up. Since most people will be swapping in a 3S-GTE we can automatically see that it is as well an S block version, in this case, the 3rd generation. (Now don't get misleaded, just because the 5S-FE is a later version, does not mean its better than the 3S-GTE, the 5S block is a 2.2 liter and the 3S block is a 2.0 liter. There are other internal differences, but the numbers are more there for a Toyota referance of a family off the same design. Differences stagger, there is no linear logical progression of whats better or newer just due to the numbers) So your probably asking yourself at this point, 'Whats the T stand for in 3S-GTE then?', good question! The 3S-GTE came stock with a turbo charger, thus the T.

    So will the 5S-FE stock transmission work on a 3S-GTE engine swap, sure! They're going to have the same bolt patterns for the tranmission to line up.


    How about Automatic to Manual Conversions?


    As for this specific question, you are going from an automatic to a manual. You could try using the automatic transmission as we have already learned it will bolt on, but this is seriously NOT recommended! The stock 1990-1993 transmission, the S53, and the stock 1994-1999, the S54, can be used. They are not the best setup but work for 90% of the people out there that are gunning for 300hp and lower. People have broken transmission and axels in the past, how well it holds up is going to be up to prior condition and your driving habits!

    The only last bit of information I could give you, is that since your asking about parts related and your doing a tranmission swap (a bit off topic for this thread as its primary focus is about the engine swap) is that you will need to get ahold of a manual ECU and shifter linkage to install inside the car. Overall, the transmission swap is fairly straight forward. You will be able to get a clutch pedal and bolt it right up, since Toyota worked on an assembly line, the frames are kept as close as possible even though different to cut costs. This means that even though your car came stock with an automatic tranmission, there are still bolt holes for a clutch pedal, this is all thanks to the cookie cutter assembly line!
    Last edited by Trance4c; 01-30-2009 at 12:09 AM.
     ...to the topTop

  6. #6
    CelicaTech Supporter Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold
    Trance4c has been to an annual Dragon Meet!

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Darkside of the Moon
    Posts
    4,033
    Images
    203

    Default

    So why isn't there just one big editorial on how to do the swap?

    Great question! This is probably were we really should start and were I have tried to begin at the top. The 3S-GTE can be bolted into 3 different Celica body styles. The 4th gen (86-89), the 5th gen (90-93) and the 6th gen (94-99). All of those versions came in either an Alltrac or GT4 version, that is the original all-wheel drive 3S-GTE powered Celica. Unfortunately we did not see the 6th gen GT4 in the USA. The problem with doing one single swap editorial though is that Celica's came in many different versions. For example, lets take a look at the 5th generation alone, possibly the most versions came in this body style: (chassis code, model, 2/4 wheel steering, engine code)

    AT180 ST 2WS 4A-FE
    ST182 GT-i 2WS 3S-GE
    ST183 GT-i 4WS 3S-GE
    ST182 GT-R 2WS 3S-GE
    ST183 GT-R 4WS 3S-GE
    ST182 Z-R 2WS 3S-FE
    ST183 Z-R 4WS 3S-FE
    ST182 S-R 2WS 3S-FE
    ST183 S-R 4WS 3S-FE
    ST184 GT, GTS, SX 2WS 5S-FE
    ST185 Alltrac, GT4 2WS 4WD 3S-GTE

    There might even be more models out there! As we can see though, most of all the models were S block engine setups and will allow a 3S-GTE to be bolted in but that is were the differences begin.

    You should research your particular version of your Celica to find out specific differences that you will encounter that way when you are looking at information available about the swap you can understand better what your looking at and what you have to do.

    More information can be found here:

    Wikipedia - Toyota Celica
    Know your Celica Roots
    Differences between GT & GTS

    **NOTE: You will find that even today many people disagree about the differences between the cars, the only real way you'll learn is to get hands on with your vehicle! Have confidence in your work, if you don't then your not ready yet.
     ...to the topTop

  7. #7
    CelicaTech Supporter Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold Trance4c is a splendid one to behold
    Trance4c has been to an annual Dragon Meet!

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Darkside of the Moon
    Posts
    4,033
    Images
    203

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by celica al trac
    after about 2hrs of read this. i think i found out that i will be better of geting a 1/2 cut. that should make it lil better. becosue if i really need to i can swap everthing over right? and just extend the harnes as need or i am looking at this all wroung? i have not been on hear for a long time beocuse i want to see if i could do. so i have been doing honda swaps. east. so i helpd my friend do a st205 awd. well its a hold for about 6months right waiting for more parts.
    I still can't decide, should I get an MR2 rear cut? Celica front clip? Or should I do a package engine, ECU and wiring harness? I dunno!!

    You are looking at this correctly, and regardless of what anyone says - a GT4 1/2 cut clip IS THE WAY TO GO.

    Now, you may also use a rear cut MR2, but conversion pieces are necessary - wiring harness is all wrong, water neck is incorrect, Alternator bracket and placing is different and Valve cover PCV extension is curved which will not work with a top mount intercooler setup (this might not necessarily be a problem because many swappers don't use an alltrac hood or a top mount IC, they go straight to a front mount setup). You will also have to deal with the issue of radiator fitting, while you can get around that with hosing its not a make or break situation like the above differences.

    In which ever case, its up to you to figure out the best course of action. There are also a LOT of opinions on transmission durability and axels for these different setups. You can convert the GT4 transmission to FWD but at a cost of a lot of extra weight. You may also use the MR2 transmission though 91-92 tranny's are weaker and non-LSD then the 93+ MR2 E153 transmission and only then only select 93+ E153 transmissions are LSD. In either case, the MR2 transmission requires the creation of custom axels from the GT4 and MR2 - a hybrid of inner MR2 axel and outer GT4 axel. (and even then at this point a conversation that does not happen all that often is the reliability and durability of hybrid axels) The obvious choice is to use your S53/S54 FWD non-LSD transmission setup that came in your Celica attached to the stock 5S-FE engine. Lastly, there is always the Camry V6 transmission option as well with hybrid custom axels.

    All of these issues and choices will have to be dealt with by the individual swapper to decide, you will have to weigh your budget, parts availability, purpose, reliability yourself. No one person can tell you the best course of action to take.

    I will say though, if you have done previous Honda swaps, this should not be any more difficult for you. Go with a GT4 clip, make some transmission / axel choices and drop that sucker in!
    Last edited by Trance4c; 01-30-2009 at 12:13 AM.
     ...to the topTop

  8. #8

    Default

    The primary reason for getting a front clip when doing a swap is that all the necessary parts are included. This is as opposed to just using the engine and having to source out all the remaining necessary parts (ie. wiring harness, ecu, axels, sensors, etc...) which will invariably cost much more in the end.
    Remember also: doing a swap is not only an ENGINE related event. It also involves the DRIVETRAIN, due to the increase in power levels as mentioned earlier and there are many choices to be made in regard to the particular choice of inner/outer axels,mr2 or gt4...
    Do your research. It can all be found here.
    - Mario
    - Shadow's Army - 5 star General -

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

    Questions?

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    .


    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a Habit."
     ...to the topTop

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Similar Threads

  1. Thinking about swapping? 6GC tips and tricks
    By ChrisD in forum 6th Generation
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-24-2011, 02:21 AM
  2. Maybe OT, but something I've been thinking about...
    By TheNefariousOne in forum Forced Induction Applications and Tuning
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 12-16-2005, 08:13 PM
  3. Thinking of getting rid of the celica...
    By ToyotaSupra in forum 5th Generation
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-06-2005, 07:34 AM
  4. Information on how turbos work, and how to pick the right one! READ ME!
    By MrWOT in forum Forced Induction Applications and Tuning
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-01-2005, 05:59 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Top Member List Chat Forum Search Contact Top