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Thread: The 3sgte Swap

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  1. #1

    Post The 3sgte Swap 56K Warning

    *THIS IS FOR INSTRUCTIONAL USE*

    Hey guys,
    I figured I'd do a write up while I was doing my swap. Later on we can edit everything and have a nice FAQ & how-to for the 3sgte swap.

    Ok, I dont know everything about cars. I took on this project to learn and further enjoy the car I love. There will be times where I dont know what a part is or how to explain it, but with everyone's help we'll get through it.

    If you guys have anything to add, please feel free to reply. Please do not flame me or post negative remarks about the parts I install, or anything thats involved in this thread. Post your opinions not your attitudes.

    First Step: The thought. Should I do it. Well its up to you, use this as a guide to help you along the way.
    Its recommended that you have somewhere around 4000 dollars saved for the swap.

    Before you ask: Engine or Clip. Get the clip, it will have all the parts you need for the swap. (for the most part). If you purchase only an engine you would have to hunt down so many hard to find parts it would be rediculous.

    ChrisD wrote:
    If you just bought engine, ecu, tranny, wiring harness.

    You would be missing: 3rd ECU plug, AFM, ignitor, coil, injector resistor pack, fuel pump resistor, fuel pump relay, turbo pressure sensor, air intake piping, and probably some other stuff.

    If you got a clip, you would be missing nothing. Plus, you could sell off a LOT of stuff, and pay for a good portion of your swap.

    A swap can take a weekend or many months. It all depends on what you are doing.

    It is probably a good idea to replace some old parts while you are at it! All gaskets, water pump, oil pump, belts, hose from hell, clutch, head gasket, distributor cap and rotor, plugs, plug wires, fuel filter, air filter, etc....depends on what you want out of the car. If you want to modify it, add some more.

    Second Step
    : What model do you have ST(like me) or a GT.
    IF you have a GT its a little easier for you guys. The 5sfe Tranny bolts right up to the 3sgte engine. Most people will bash the 5s tranny saying it wont hold the power. We have a few guys running the 5s tranny with no problems.
    Other options: E-153 MR2 turbo tranny with LSD
    1mzfe tranny found on Solaras
    3sge tranny found on a number of Toyotas

    GT guys unless you dont want to use the 5sfe tranny, move on you dont need this section.

    ST guys. You most likely know that you need new mounts. I originally bought ST205 TRD mounts, they do not fit with the 3sge or 5sfe tranny. they will work on the solara and I believe the mr2 tranny.

    ST mounts


    GT mounts


    Totally different, to be safe get all four.


    You also need to get a tranny, look above for recomendations. I'm using a JDM 3SGE Tranny. I'll have pics and more detail later on.
    you need axles for my case I can use regular gt axles(which I have to buy).
    Shifter cables yep you need them.
    Here is how they break down:
    E-153 mr2 turbo tranny = GT shifter cables
    GT tranny = GT shifter cables
    1mzfe Solara Tranny = ST205 Cables (GT4)
    3SGE Tranny = GT Cables

    I have some pictures of cables and the differences

    GT & GT4 side by side

    GT left, GT4 right

    GT top, GT4 bottom

    Ok Cables, mounts, axles I think we can join the GT guys again.

    GT & ST: Clutch. Depending on which tranny you use it will effect which clutch parts you buy.
    Lagos wrote:
    Clutch:
    if using the gt tranny with the 3sgte motor, you will need:
    5sfe disk (or a custom made 3sgte disk, with the splines for the 5sfe tranny)
    5sfe throwout bearing
    5sfe alignment tool
    3sgte pressure plate
    3sgte flywheel (or just get your stock one resurfaced)

    if you are going to use an mr2 turbo tranny, then all you need to do is buy a clutch kit for a 90-93 turbo mr2.

    be carefull when buying clutch disks for the 5sfe tranny. a stage 1 disk for the 5sfe is not the same thing as a stage 1 disk for the 3sgte. so if you get something like a stock oem clutch or a ACT street disk, it probably will not hold the power you need to put down.
    if you call up a company like Spec or Clutchmasters and tell them about your project, they can make you a custom disk that can hold the power you will make and have the correct spline count that you need.
    You all will need a new fuel pump. I am using a walbro supra turbo pump. Most people will say that it whines when operating. People have even dubbed it "WhineBro". Another option is to purchase a OEM Supra turbo pump from toyota. It is silent, and still delivers the fuel the 3sgte needs.

    I'm not going to cover after market intercoolers. You can do the swap with the stock set up. The stock Air to Air cooler is not recommened, most people prefer to get an aftermarket. The stock intercooler sits on top of the 3sgte, with leads to heat soak at an idle. Most people Use an front mount intercooler. You can search for it in the forums.
    My 3SGTE is the RC version with a water cooled top mount intercooler. I have no need to get a FMIC (front mount intercooler)

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    My Setup
    97 celica ST 5spd 179,xxx
    ST185 3SGTE RC Swap
    GT motor mounts
    JDM 3SGE Tranny
    JDM 3SGE axles
    GT shifter cables
    Fidanza Flyweel 10 lbs.
    Spec stage 3 clutch
    HKS SSQ blow off Valve
    Walbro fuel pump
    Full 3 inch exhaust
    HKS Titanium TI muffler
    Gauges - Undecided. Autometer boost gauge for now
    Electronic Boot Control- Greddy Profec B (still need to buy)
    I'll add what ever I forgot later.
    I have parts all over the place so it will take time to get all the pictures. here is what pictures I have right now


    My car as it sits now


    Walbro Fuel pump


    My Down Pipe


    My Baby

    My HKS Carbon TI muffler 3 inch inlet, 4 3/4 inch outlet

    This is what I have pictures of right now. I have parts scattered in three different homes. I'll get pictures of everything dont worry



    Right now 5/26/05 I have almost everything for the swap. In the next two weeks my clip will be delivered to my home by JARCO. At that time this thread will be come more technical. I'll try to keep a step by step account of everything. I will also have some videos of a few parts of the swap.
    I'll also end all your worries about the motor mounts, I'll clearly lay it out for you with measurements. You DONT have to weld the mounts in. I'm not sure about the wiring yet. so maybe one of you guys might want to do a write up about it. And I'll quote it in later on.

    UPDATE:6/7/05 I'm going through the longest week ever. On saturday my clip will be delivered. Spec Stage 3 clutch is on the way, Next week the pictures start.

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    Update: 6/14/05 I got my clip over the weekend, and I couldnt be happier.





    Ok so this thing is huge make sure you have enough room for the swap.
    only thing I can really say right now is, get that bitch on some jeck stands and start taking it apart.

    Where do I start. Well, I pulled the wiring harness from inside the car out and layed across the top of the engine. I pulled the throttle cable, save it you will need it for your swap. Then I pulled all the other wiring and hoses that connect the engine to the body. Make sure you label everything ! Take pictures if you need to, whatever will help you remember where everything goes. if all goes well you should have somthing that looks like this.



    Dont forget to pull coolant hoses, shifter cables,axles, radiator and whatever other small things that may hold the engine in or get in the way.

    Raditator

    Now before you lift the engine out you still have some things that need to be done.

    Like removing the intercooler, just so it doesnt get damaged when you pull the engine.



    Then the mounts, a 17mm socket will undo all the mounts. The rear mount will be the hardest and most dangerous. But I will post a way to get around this problem. I hope my idea will work.


    After everything is pulled the engine should come out with little trouble.
    Next update, I'll have the engine pulled and my parts being installed to the 3sgte

    As it sits right now, waiting to be plucked. :happyrun:


    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    So I guess its time for an update.........

    The 3s is out and so is the 7a !

    With the help a few friends, we managed to get most of the gaskets and seals done on the 3sgte. Do all the maintenance with the engine out it will make your life easier in the long run.

    Empty engine bay


    Flywheel and clutch install
    Fidanza wheel and Spec stage 3 clutch


    The down pipe


    The 3s and 7a side by side


    the mount area I will go into full detail about this part when I get to it.




    Inside the two red circles is where you need to drill. The chassis is already marked for the holes that need to be drilled. you need a long 3/8 drill bit for metal.


    Sears item #00966062000 its like 12.99

    I installed all the other engine mounts then bolted this mount to the engine and then I drilled out the holes. after I bolted the mount down using locktite and nylon nuts.


    You're going to have to do some grinding on the passenger side engine mount bracket. you have to grind down the hump thats on this bracket in order for it to fit on the 3sgte.

    Below are some examples of what you need to do.




    6th gen and 5th gen Crossmembers

    See totally different. Use the 6th gen members with the correct mounts


    Ok, I think we went over all the steps. Lets drop that engine in.
    Make sure your engine harness has been converted properly. install it on the engine before you drop it in.
    Start with the driver side mount first, then front and back mounts. Save the Passenger side mount for Last if you have an ST. With all the other mounts bolted up you should be lined up perfect for the two holes you need to drill.







    Once you have all the mounts in, start putting it all back together.
    By this point you know every nut and bolt on ur car, so it starts to get easier.

    in a couple of hours you should be sitting on all fours.
    Something like this.


    Clean your self up and take it for a spin. Dont forget to break the clutch in.

    Enjoy,
    Defgeph

    PS. if I left anything out I'll fill it in later


    I think thats it for now, I'll keep this updated.

    DEF
    Last edited by defgeph; 09-27-2005 at 12:52 AM.

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  2. #2

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    Nice work. If you need any wiring help, just let me know.

    -Doc

  3. #3

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    dr tweak, if you have any info to share, please post it and add to the stickie
    Boosted. Tuned. Ready.

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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagos
    dr tweak, if you have any info to share, please post it and add to the stickie
    Not sure if I posted it in the right place, but here ya go!

    http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6359

  5. #5
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco Mike431635 is on a distinguished road Mike431635's Avatar

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    I'm interested in swapping as well and just want to know which mounts are needed from the GT-Four. Of course I'm using a 5th gen ST. Are the ST mounts between the 5th and 6th gen ST's different? Also, will there be any welding needed to fit the GT-Four mounts or is it a bolt-in job?

  6. #6

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    Mike, I am sure that the 6th gen ST passenger mount is different than the 5th gen ST. The 6th gen ST uses the bolt holes in the frame instead of a bracket like our 5th gens. For yours I think that you will need to cut your mounting bracket that is welded onto the frame and move it back towards the firewall on the strut post where it is on GT/GT-S/ All-tracs. Then it depends on which tranny you want to use: 5th gen GT/GT-S tranny you use the 5th gen GT crossmember with all the mounting hardware and 5th gen GT shifter assembly with cables. E-153 tranny you use 5th gen All-trac parts, all-trac crossmember with the mounting hardware on it and the 2 brackets that bolt to the tranny, you can use the GT/GT-S mount for the passenger side, use the all-trac driver side mount and you will need all-trac shifter cables, you can use the GT/GT-S shifter assembly if you dont have a all-trac one. All this would come with a front clip though.
    1990 GTS Sold
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoni
    Then it depends on which tranny you want to use: 5th gen GT/GT-S tranny you use the 5th gen GT crossmember with all the mounting hardware and 5th gen GT shifter assembly with cables. E-153 tranny you use 5th gen All-trac parts, all-trac crossmember with the mounting hardware on it and the 2 brackets that bolt to the tranny, you can use the GT/GT-S mount for the passenger side, use the all-trac driver side mount and you will need all-trac shifter cables, you can use the GT/GT-S shifter assembly if you dont have a all-trac one. All this would come with a front clip though.
    Just a note.
    The St184 and ST185 have the same engine crossmembers. I thought the AT101? [ST] didn't, but Dr Tweak said it did.
    Also, I thought the Dr side engine mount was the same too. I'll have to check on that.

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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltracman78
    Just a note.
    The St184 and ST185 have the same engine crossmembers. I thought the AT101? [ST] didn't, but Dr Tweak said it did.
    Also, I thought the Dr side engine mount was the same too. I'll have to check on that.
    With all due respect, but they are different. They are the same where they bolt to the frame of the car and for the front mount but the rear mount is completely different. If you try to use a GT/GTS tranny crossmember with a E-153 tranny you will immediately notice that the rear mount doesnt line up and also the crossmember will not be flush with the frame of the car in the rear. The alltrac crossmember is slightly bent where the rear mount is since the rear mounting bracket on the alltrac tranny is angled down. But it bends back up so that the crossmember will sit flush with the frame.
    I even drilled 2 holes about a inch back for the rear mount and the crossmember still wouldnt sit flush with the bottom of the frame. unless you bang the crossmember and bend it in the rear and also drill 2 new holes you cant use a GT/GTS crossmember. Even ask sean, he had to modify the GTS crossmember so that he could mount the E-153 tranny. Now I wish I had taken a picture of the 2 crossmembers side by side so that everytime someone says that they are the same I can show the picture.

    Oh, if they were the same then they would have the same toyota part numbers right? I will call up toyota tomorrow and ask them for the part numbers of the ST184 and the ST185 and I will post them up.

    About the driver side mount. The driverside mount consists of two parts: The part/bracket that bolts to the top of the tranny(lower part) and the insulated mount that bolts to the bracket that is on the top of the tranny(upper part). When I got the E-153 tranny, it didnt come with that bracket that bolts to the top of the tranny so I had to modify the bracket from my S53 so that it would bolt onto the E-153. I basically drilled 3 holes that lined up with the bolt holes on the top of the E-153. I then was able to re-use the GTS insulated mount since I was using a modified GTS bracket. The insulated mounts of the alltrac and the GTS would be the same but the bracket that bolts to the top of the tranny are not. They have different hole locations for the bolts.
    Last edited by Keoni; 07-28-2005 at 09:26 AM.
    1990 GTS Sold
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  9. #9
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco Mike431635 is on a distinguished road Mike431635's Avatar

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    Thanks Keoni that is what I was looking for. Nelson (GT4SOM) knows some guys who can do the mount for me if it's something that requires welding/fabrication because I can't do that stuff on my own. I might just have the whole swap done by them.. who knows.

  10. #10

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    For the update

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  11. #11

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    good stuff...helping me out a lot!

  12. #12

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    Glad I could help steve.

    BUMP for a small update.

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  13. #13
    celica3sgte
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    i think this should help out alot of people like me! thanks keep it up man!!!! plus keep us updated !!!!!!

  14. #14

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    ok guys im just wondering, i have the 5gsfe engine in my 96 celica gt and i was wondering if its better to just buy the 3sgte engine with everything i need (this is the turbo engine found in the 5th gen right?), or to just make my engine a turbo?? thanx guys for any info u can give me sorry im 15 lol i kno a little but not all

  15. #15

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    I wasn't sure about the dr mounts.
    As for the crossmember, I didin't notice any difference in mine. :shrug:
    I wish I hadn't thrown one of them away now.
    If I'm wrong on that, I apologize.

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  16. #16

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    has anyone thought of putting a supra engine into their cars?? or is this just not possible ?? because a twin turbo seems like the best way to go if i can.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by wsharp23
    has anyone thought of putting a supra engine into their cars?? or is this just not possible ?? because a twin turbo seems like the best way to go if i can.

    ummm.... no it wouldnt fit
    Boosted. Tuned. Ready.

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  18. #18

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    damn that sux thanx though guess im gonna go with the 3sgte swap then.. and u guys suggest getting a clip where would i go about getting one of these.

  19. #19

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    Search the internet.

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  20. #20

  21. #21
    mm95gst
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    lookin to sell my 3sgte... any one lookin to buy or know someone who wants one???

  22. #22

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    Question why did you remove your fenders and front bumper to do the swap, i am swapping my 1.6 st engine to a 5sfe all i gotta do now is put the engine back in the car i took it out of the bottom which is entirely eaiser that pulling it from the top, i also noticed you had the whole front clip with that 3sgte, did you put the whole clip on your car and if so how the hell did you get it to line up exactly....

  23. #23

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    where can i go to buy a front clip of a gt4
    will the transmission work if i want front wheel drive

  24. #24

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    how much do you want for your 3sgte

  25. #25

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    any updates yet?
    i miss my celica
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