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  1. #1
    Junior Member wilmatic is on a distinguished road

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    Default All trac fuel pump


  2. #2

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    It might but with no further info than he has in the posting, I'd figure on having to do some modification to get it to work. I did a quick search and this place has the correct Denso pump for less and it appears to come with a new sock and such. I'd rather get the right thing first and not have pull that tank twice.

    http://www.discountfuelsystems.com/s...enso+fuel+pump
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  3. #3
    Junior Member wilmatic is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro_Alltrac View Post
    It might but with no further info than he has in the posting, I'd figure on having to do some modification to get it to work. I did a quick search and this place has the correct Denso pump for less and it appears to come with a new sock and such. I'd rather get the right thing first and not have pull that tank twice.

    http://www.discountfuelsystems.com/s...enso+fuel+pump
    thanks. I'm looking at upgrading my injectors in the future and i searched here and found the model # to fit, but wanted to confirm b4 i bought it

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    DAMNIT!

    I srsly hate that guy now. I've been on a 'waiting' list for one of those Denso 1020 pumps. They come with everything needed (filter/etc). Just upgrade the wiring to the pump to allow for more current draw and you're golden. I ordered one of those pumps 6 months ago and have yet to see it (my credit card was never charged, I think he lost my order honestly).
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  5. #5
    Junior Member wilmatic is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thgenceli View Post
    DAMNIT!

    I srsly hate that guy now. I've been on a 'waiting' list for one of those Denso 1020 pumps. They come with everything needed (filter/etc). Just upgrade the wiring to the pump to allow for more current draw and you're golden. I ordered one of those pumps 6 months ago and have yet to see it (my credit card was never charged, I think he lost my order honestly).
    Have you emailed him about it. So what type of wire should i use? Sorry a noob when it comes to this stuff, but once i know i'll remember. thanks

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    id use 12 awg wire at least. i have mine run on a relay to my battery, which is in the hatch with a 20A fuse. it pulls an excess of 10A under load

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    Junior Member wilmatic is on a distinguished road

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    Hey guys, thanks for the info. now if i have an upgraded fuel pump on a stock motor will it mess it up? My car needs a fuel pump and in the future i'm going to upgrade the injectors. thanks

  8. #8

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    You'll run really rich.
    So sort of.

    Don't install it until you have everything ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltracman78 View Post
    You'll run really rich.
    So sort of.

    Don't install it until you have everything ready.
    if his pressure regulator is working correctly there is absolutely no reason to think he will run rich with an upgraded fuel pump. Pressure and volume at the rail will be the same as stock.


    if he later changes his injectors to a much greater flow rate then that is a different story.
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  10. #10

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    Pressure and volume aren't the same thing. Neither are pressure and flow.
    All the pressure regulator does is when the pressure reaches a certain point it allows fuel to return to the tank. Once it's wide open it can't limit flow any more. A higher volume pump is going to push more fuel through the system. More volume = more fuel available as each injector opens.
    If he runs a larger volume pump he's going to get more fuel through the injectors.
    How much I don't know, I've never done it.
    The engine will probably still run, maybe it will run fine.
    But, more fuel = more unburned carbon, all over the combustion chamber, fouling the plugs, on the 02 sensor, the exhaust, possibly washing down cylinder walls, ect.
    If he installs it I doubt he's going to destroy his engine, but it's not the smart thing to do.
    He's better off waiting 'til he has everything IMO.

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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltracman78 View Post
    If he runs a larger volume pump he's going to get more fuel through the injectors.
    umm no

    The amount of fuel dispenced by an injector is affected by two things, and two things only. Pressure and pulse width (or duty cycle). A larger fuel pump affects neither of those things. Volume doesnt play into it at all in this case.


    The only thing more available volume is going to do is prevent fuel starvation if the demand outweighs the supply, i.e. a significantly larger injector on a system not designed for it. Look at it this way, if I hotwire my pump to run with the key on, engine off, how much fuel is entering the cylinder? none. The volume of fuel circulating through the lines is irrelevant.
    Last edited by Facime; 12-12-2010 at 07:27 AM.
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  12. #12

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    That's a good point, I didn't think of that.
    You're right, my mistake.

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  13. #13

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    no worries, its actually a common mistake, but the whole purpose of a properly tuned FPR is to alter the amount of fuel entering the cylinder. Its an overlooked item when it comes to driveability issues since the ECU attempts to compensate (based on other sensors) by varying pulse width. The fuel pump plays a far less significant role in a mostly stock configuration and its one that I DO like to see people upgrade ahead of time because it can be done without significant consequence but will provide a degree of protection against a "lean out" condition.

    This becomes more important for the boosted application where people start turning up the boost. Volume comes into play when the system reaches full duty cycle for longer than average times.
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  14. #14
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    Here's the problem.... and I would be careful about it.. I had a car explode because of this...

    a higher volume fuel pump will deliver a high volume through the return line.... If the return line is not large enough to compensate for the additional fuel, your return line will be a restriction. This will cause pressure in your return line. This causes two things...

    1) a higher pressure on the outlet of the regulator. This can cause the regulator not to regulate fuel pressure properly. This can cause your fuel pressure to be higher than desired when volume through the return is high (at idle), and if adjustable and set at this flow... lower than desired at low return line flow (high load/RPM)

    2) pressure in your return line!!!! The stock fuel system is not designed for this type of flow. there is a small 8mm tube that returns the fuel to the tank. This is a significant restriction, especially in the celica with a long return tube. Toyota designed this system for a lower volume pump with low return line pressure The hoses are just held on by spring clamps (or worm gear clamps, both suck). By increasing the flow through this line (which itself becomes a restriction), pressure will increase beyond design specs... this can cause the fuel return line hoses to blow off, spraying a high volume of fuel in the best case near your exhaust at the fuel tank... at the worst at the regulator-return line hose, spraying fuel all over your engine near the ignition system...

    If any of you remember the Sport Compact Car MR2 project (18 articles around 1998), that was my car... and that was the demise of the car... pulling away from a stop light, I thought "is that fuel I smell?" and then BOOM, the rear of the car exploded in a fuel fire consuming the car.

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    OK, so I have been asked about fuel pumps.... It all depends on what you'll be using. What size injectors, what boost pressure, and so on.

    for 95% of you out there, slap in a walbro 255lph pump and be done with it!

    for .01% of you, dual walbro 255lph pumps, Aeromotive FPR, -10 feed line, -8 return line will be needed.

    Things to remember... boost raises pump pressure. as pressure increases, pump volume decreases, and
    rising rate regulators will kill your engine :-)

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    wow that is crazy... I have run a 270LPH Denso Supra TT pump for 3 years. It drops right in no mods or extra noise. Ran it with stock injectors first. Put on 540 and switched to e-85 for the last couple years. Return system is stock... no problems for me.

  17. #17

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    Yeah I was unable to verify the return hose size for an alltrac, but based on my quick calculations an 8mm return line should be more than adaquate up to about 200LPH and a 9.5mm line is good to upwards of 340LPH. Thats a huge difference for a small diamater change. Also realize that thats assuming some things such as zero demand from the engine, no other restrictions due to improper bends/bad fittings, etc.

    Austin, what pump were you running in that car?
    (also wanted to comment, that while the powerplant is the same, an MR2 and an AT are two different animals.)
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facime View Post
    Yeah I was unable to verify the return hose size for an alltrac, but based on my quick calculations an 8mm return line should be more than adaquate up to about 200LPH and a 9.5mm line is good to upwards of 340LPH.
    and note that a walbro 255lph pump outputs about 270LPH at idle (under vacuum), the Supra pump outputs about 280LPH. at 20lbs of boost, the walbro outputs about 240LPH, the Supra about 205LPH

    Quote Originally Posted by Facime View Post
    Austin, what pump were you running in that car?
    It was dual pumps... a walbro 255LPH pump running as a feed to a large external fuel pump. Not really sure which one Norwood put on... but they were a fan of Aeromotive fuel products...

    HOWEVER... the external fuel pump was on a relay system, so that below 3K RPM, the external pump was only running about half speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Facime View Post
    (also wanted to comment, that while the powerplant is the same, an MR2 and an AT are two different animals.)
    True, the MR2's return line is less restrictive, as there are only 2 bends in the system, and is only about 4 feet long total. The all trac's is much more restrictive due to it's length and bends.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by temperacerguy View Post
    True, the MR2's return line is less restrictive, as there are only 2 bends in the system, and is only about 4 feet long total. The all trac's is much more restrictive due to it's length and bends.
    lol, what I was getting at is the close proximity of the fuel lines to the ultimate heat source.


    and Im just going to guess that they installed a A1000 (pretty commonly used) and if your builder attempted to put that kind of volume through a stock return line....no wonder you blew up! (and shame on them). While thats an interesting (and sad) story of the demise of that car, and as solid as that information and advice is, its at the extreme end of relevance to this conversation for a couple of reasons.

    The A1000 has a -10an outlet as you described. That in itself is a serious upgrade from stock. Having only had the tank of the AT out once or twice now Im going from memory here but I dont believe the oulet hose on the tank is significantly larger than the return hose....SOOoooo in the case of an some extreme in tank pump output, the supply line would act as a limiter to some degree to begin with. When you couple that with the design of the denso and walbro pumps you are far more likely to overload and thermally damage the pump than you are to create a pressure load on the return side downstream of the regulator. I know this all too well. Its why I had to replace the pump in my AT right after I got it.

    I guess my point is, if you try to cram a firehose into a garden hose, yes, you will have a pressure increase, but thats not whats being done here in most cases. At worst we are talking about a big garden hose going to a sprinkler, and downstream of that sprinkler is a slightly smaller garden hose.




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    From a more hands on standpoint, myself and many others have been running Walbro 255's and Supra pumps on our cars for years (8 years for mine) with zero issues. I think a good time to look at the entire fuel system would be once you surpass the limits of these 'mild' pump upgrades.
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  21. #21
    Junior Member wilmatic is on a distinguished road

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    thanks for the input. so i could use a stock supra fuel pump on a stock all trac and be fine? thanks

  22. #22

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    ^^ simple answer, yes
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    Simple answer is yes, but why would you use the supra pump when the walbro 255lph out performs the supra pump at a cheaper price?

    http://www.fuelpumps.com/19901993-to...wd-p-3306.html

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    because you see all that non-oem junk that comes with that? Wiring to cut and attach are just another un needed link in a chain of un needed modifications to fit that pump. Plus I hear they are loud as hell and do not run at part copacity with your stock wiring at low engine speeds like the supra pump will. The supra pump drops in absolutely no modification, and frankly I trust where toyota gets their parts (Denso) above any "equivilent yet cheaper" aftermarket brand.
    Put in the Supra pump and never look back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Facime View Post
    and Im just going to guess that they installed a A1000 (pretty commonly used) and if your builder attempted to put that kind of volume through a stock return line....no wonder you blew up! (and shame on them).
    Shame indeed... especially since the project manager was the author of a book called "nuts bolts and fasteners"

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