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  1. #1

    Default 5SFE -> 2nd Gen 3SGE N/A Swap Details?

    Hi guys! just a bit new here, I've done a lot of reading and looking but cannot find this information.

    I've just recently gotten a 5th gen Celica GTS with a 5SFE and I'd like to do a mild upgrade since this motor is a bit tired and I have to replace the Transmission anyways.

    I don't want a 3SGTE or a Hybrid 5SFE. I'm looking at putting a JDM 2nd Gen 3SGE (165hp right?) into the Celica.

    Since they fit the engine mounts, my question is this.

    I'm going to assume I need a 3SGE ECU to control this thing, will the 5SFE harnass adapt to the 3SGE ECU and Engine? The 5sFE flywheel I assume will bolt to the 3SGE and 5sFE clutch will work right?

    What am I missing? Do I need a 3SGE harnass from like a ST165 car?

    Thanks for help!
    1990 Toyota Celica GTS
    Tranny swap done!
    Fix the Fender that Avalanche backed into...

    1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4
    Buncha Mods!
    400ish Hp

    1988 Toyota Supra Turbo
    All Rebuilt and Stuff!
    320hp or so

  2. #2

    Default

    Hmmm, well I've done some more searching and come up with very little.

    Apprently their are 2nd Gen 3SGE that are still AFM, and later ones with MAp that make more power.

    Does anyone know if the 4th Gen Harnass and ECU will power a AFM 3SGE? I would suspect going with a AFM 3sge would be the easiest.

    Does anyone know if the 5SFE flywheel fits on the 3SGE?

    So little info on this swap!
    1990 Toyota Celica GTS
    Tranny swap done!
    Fix the Fender that Avalanche backed into...

    1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4
    Buncha Mods!
    400ish Hp

    1988 Toyota Supra Turbo
    All Rebuilt and Stuff!
    320hp or so

  3. #3
    I'll be the little spoon KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey's Avatar
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    no, the flywheel doesn't fit.

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
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  4. #4

    Default

    I'm looking to do the same swap in my car expect with a 3rd gen 3sge so any information would be a help
    Bruce

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  5. #5

    Default

    Yeah! its nutso! I don't understand why there isn't more infomration regarding this.

    Slvrblt I'd like to do a 3rd gen also, but I suspect that the easiest is using a AFM 2nd Gen 3sge over a more complex MAF 3rd gen, but I haven't gotten much info yet.

    Still hoping to find more on this! There is some other big celicaforum that has lots of information but its down right now, hoping to find some answers there.
    1990 Toyota Celica GTS
    Tranny swap done!
    Fix the Fender that Avalanche backed into...

    1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4
    Buncha Mods!
    400ish Hp

    1988 Toyota Supra Turbo
    All Rebuilt and Stuff!
    320hp or so

  6. #6

    Default

    The swap is not common due to:
    1- The rareness of the engine, it can only be found on some 6th Gen Celicas, some MR-2 and the Altezza

    2- The mild power gain in comparisson to the 3S-GTE swap, meaning that, why bother to swap an engine that will only give you 25 HP more if you can drop in an engine that can give you +40 HP for just a little more cash

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    92 ST182 Euro/JDM Spec
    2nd Gen 3S-GE


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  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic_sombrero
    I was under the impression that the engine mounts where different. . . They match up in the ST (4AFE engine), but the 5SFE mounts are different.

    I may be off, I've not done any research, I'm just regurgitating.
    EDIT: I was thinking 4age. whoops.

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    Originally Posted by Colossus20v
    ^The years of ninja training helped...

  8. #8

    Default

    The swap is not common due to:
    1- The rareness of the engine, it can only be found on some 6th Gen Celicas, some MR-2 and the Altezza

    2- The mild power gain in comparisson to the 3S-GTE swap, meaning that, why bother to swap an engine that will only give you 25 HP more if you can drop in an engine that can give you +40 HP for just a little more cash
    I suppose you're right, if you're gonna gonna pull the motor, might as well go for a Turbo motor.

    Its just that I have 260,000kms on this 5SFE, and I have to change the transmission anyways. They have STACKS of 3SGE's at the JDM places in Toronto that can be had for like 400$ Canadian. I've had a turbo car for quite a while, and its cool and all, but I'd really like a high revving, N/A motor for once.

    Turbo engines are a lot of trouble, a lot of complication and not good for a daily driver which this car is for me. I just figured that I might as well replace the engine while I'm at it, and get something cool in the process.

    With bolt ons, surely a 2nd gen 3SGE can make 170hp, that'd be pretty decent. A 3RD gen motor would be great! (Death to Karmen Vortex!) does anyone know how much more difficult this is comprativly to a AFM 3SGE swap?

    I know that I can get a used 3SGE harnass and ECU easy from a scrapyard 4th Gen car and with that and the 5SFE harnass should be able to wire up a AFM 2nd Gen motor fairly easily! But I am not so confident about a fancy pants 180hp 3rd gen 3SGE.
    Last edited by Kingsoup; 03-29-2005 at 01:49 PM.
    1990 Toyota Celica GTS
    Tranny swap done!
    Fix the Fender that Avalanche backed into...

    1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4
    Buncha Mods!
    400ish Hp

    1988 Toyota Supra Turbo
    All Rebuilt and Stuff!
    320hp or so

  9. #9
    mikeswickednick
    Guest

    Default

    2nd gen 3sges are cheap like 300


    look over at www.mr2oc.com and u can get some basics on the swap

  10. #10

    Default

    I've been on Mr2 owners club already looking for details, but its still pretty vague. But I saw a guy who would show all the pinouts so that you can splice bits of your 5SFE harnass into a 3SGE harnass. I saw some guy selling a 2nd gen 3SGE harnass + ECU for cheap, but I'm gonna guess these are pretty rare.

    The general concensus is that the 2nd Gen 3SGE shares many similar parts with the 1st gen motor, which is even more encouraging. I'm hoping, that with a 1st Gen 3SGE harnass and ECU (easy scrapyard parts) and some splicing from the 5SFE harnass it shouldn't be so bad.

    You need to score a 3SGE flywheel, but at least you can order then in this country, although I'm sure not for cheap. I'll be hoping I think to score a 2nd gen 3SGE + 5-spd already hanging off it with a flywheel and clutch inside. Although THEN I've heard different axles are needed!

    If only I had some good info on this! BUT! if a 2nd gen 3SGE was put in all 5th Gen Celicas outside North America, how the hell hard could it be to swap it in??

    Also read that a guy said 180hp out of a 2ndgen 3SGE is easy peasy
    1990 Toyota Celica GTS
    Tranny swap done!
    Fix the Fender that Avalanche backed into...

    1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4
    Buncha Mods!
    400ish Hp

    1988 Toyota Supra Turbo
    All Rebuilt and Stuff!
    320hp or so

  11. #11
    Sleeker luvva. carlosfandango is on a distinguished road carlosfandango's Avatar
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    Default

    The 3sgte is also a high revving motor - its a turbo'd 3sge.

    why dont you consider a rev 3 3sge from a gen 6 ST202, swap in the engine and gearbox complete - that way you dont need to worry about clutch or flywheel, get a complete engine with harness and ECU.

    A gen four st165 harness will not work - you need the correct harness and ecu to simplify the job, yes earlier st18* had afm and later ones had map so make sure you get the correct ecu and harness - i'd go afm.

    a gen 6 ST202 3SGE has as much power NA as the FI Gen 4 alltrac Turbo.

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    Previous Celica's - 90 185 JDM GT4 - 89 165 UK GT4 - 87 162 UK GT Convertible (nitrous 3SGE)

    Now playing with;
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    RR-V Honda CBR900RR Fireblade.
    06 Mitsibushi L200 Animal. 410nm TQ @ 2,200rpm.

  12. #12
    I'll be the little spoon KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luis C
    The swap is not common due to:
    1- The rareness of the engine, it can only be found on some 6th Gen Celicas, some MR-2 and the Altezza
    You must be smoking crack or something... they said 2nd or 3rd gen 3SGEs not 4th gen BEAMS 3SGEs... 2nd (all 5th gen celica GTs and GT-Rs outside north america) and 3rd gen (ST202 and Carina GT-i) is not that difficult. the wiring is the hassle. or (in my case) dealing with toysport for parts I didn't have. I'll go grab my wiring diagram and get it scanned by kinkos or something. PM me for wiring diagram for either the 3rd gen (maf sensor celi) or the 4th gen (VVT-i wiring diagram that toysport mistakenly sent me).

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
    Joey wins this thread.

  13. #13

    Default

    the wiring is the hassle. or (in my case) dealing with toysport for parts I didn't have. I'll go grab my wiring diagram and get it scanned by kinkos or something. PM me for wiring diagram for either the 3rd gen (maf sensor celi) or the 4th gen (VVT-i wiring diagram that toysport mistakenly sent me)
    Wicked! I'll do that! MmmMMMm MAF, Drooooool.
    1990 Toyota Celica GTS
    Tranny swap done!
    Fix the Fender that Avalanche backed into...

    1993 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4
    Buncha Mods!
    400ish Hp

    1988 Toyota Supra Turbo
    All Rebuilt and Stuff!
    320hp or so

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KoreanJoey
    You must be smoking crack or something... they said 2nd or 3rd gen 3SGEs not 4th gen BEAMS 3SGEs... 2nd (all 5th gen celica GTs and GT-Rs outside north america) and 3rd gen (ST202 and Carina GT-i) is not that difficult. the wiring is the hassle.
    Try finding one in the U.S.. I know the rest of the world got the 3S-GE instead of the 5S-FE, hell my car has a 2nd gen 3S-GE from the factoru but my point was finding the engine IN the U.S., off course you can go to any importer and ask for the engine to be shipped from overseas but it is unlikely the have it stock, it's easier to find a GTE and that's why people prefer it to a GE.

    Quote Originally Posted by KINGSOUP
    I know that I can get a used 3SGE harnass and ECU easy from a scrapyard 4th Gen car and with that and the 5SFE harnass should be able to wire up a AFM 2nd Gen motor fairly easily! But I am not so confident about a fancy pants 180hp 3rd gen 3SGE.
    A 1st Gen ECU + Harness wont work because there is a BIG difference between the 1st gen and 2nd gen 3S-GE. The head design of the 2nd Gen is completly different from the 1st Gen, it has bigger ports and flows better than the 1st gen, and then the cams are also different (254 I think in the 2nd Gen, gotta confirm that).

    As for the tranny and gearbox I can say that we got the S52 box instead of the NADM S53 with the 2nd Gen 3S-GE so I'm not sure on what parts you can/can't use with your current box.

    Anyway, 2nd gen 3S-GE are stock engines around here and I can get the parts at my Toyota parts dealer in case you need anything but I can assure you shipping to the U.S./Canada wont be cheap.... I can even get you the clear "JDM" corner lights too (stock here also)
    Last edited by Luis C; 03-31-2005 at 05:00 PM.

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    92 ST182 Euro/JDM Spec
    2nd Gen 3S-GE


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  15. #15
    I'll be the little spoon KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey's Avatar
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    Um.... I am an importer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Luis C
    Try finding one in the U.S.. I know the rest of the world got the 3S-GE instead of the 5S-FE, hell my car has a 2nd gen 3S-GE from the factoru but my point was finding the engine IN the U.S., off course you can go to any importer and ask for the engine to be shipped from overseas but it is unlikely the have it stock, it's easier to find a GTE and that's why people prefer it to a GE.

    Anyway, 2nd gen 3S-GE are stock engines around here and I can get the parts at my Toyota parts dealer in case you need anything but I can assure you shipping to the U.S./Canada wont be cheap.... I can even get you the clear "JDM" corner lights too (stock here also)

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
    Joey wins this thread.

  16. #16
    Fenix
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    The 2nd Gen 3S-GE uses a MAP sensor!
    If it has an AFM then it's not a 2nd gen.

    I've got two of these engines, one euro spec wich came with my ST-182 and one low mileage from Japan because i blew my headgasket at the dragstrip. They're fun to work on.

  17. #17
    Sleeker luvva. carlosfandango is on a distinguished road carlosfandango's Avatar
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    early 2nd rev st18* had AFM.

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    Previous Celica's - 90 185 JDM GT4 - 89 165 UK GT4 - 87 162 UK GT Convertible (nitrous 3SGE)

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  18. #18

    Default

    3sgte = bomb

    swap in a 2nd gen 3sge if your on a budget or swap a 1mzfe in your celi
    94 camry base 5speed, oil pump exploded
    87 yota truck, it runs, it's in beater phase but it's been mobile.
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  19. #19

    Default

    To swap in a 3rd gen 3S-GE, you'll end up spending $1000 or less for everything. You don't really need JDM wiring diagrams. What you can use is wiring diagrams for both the 5th gen Celica's and the 6th gen Celica's. A guy from Firestone hooked me up with the 6th gen Celica's wiring diagram and I used the Haynes manual's wiring diagrams as well. I also got help from PerSonalHell. Let me point some of the things to look out for:

    1. The fuse box will be a bitch to wire up since they're different.


    2. When it comes down to the ECU, you won't have to worry about the first 3 plugs. The 4th plug is where you'll be doing some re-wiring on.


    3. The interior plugs are a bitch as well. The 5th gen Celica's have 2 interior plugs while the 6th gen Celica's have 3. So you'll be re-wiring those out.


    4. The engine mounts looked to be different, especially the transmission one. So we switched out all of the engine mount brackets from the 5S-FE to the 3S-GE.


    5. Extending the wiring harness, just like the 3S-GTE swaps.
    6. You'll especially need the right-side axle. I dunno if the US 6th gen Celica's use the same type of axle, but the bracket that connects to the engine is different. ST202 axle on top, ST184 axle on the bottom:


    7. You will need to get ahold of a 4-wire O2 sensor. Not to worry, go to your local auto parts store and look for a 95 MR2 Turbo Bosch universal O2 Sensor (Around $60).
    8. 3rd gen 3S-GE's have an external coil and are packed together with the igniter. What you'll find is that when you go to bolt up the coil/igniter to where the 5S-FE's igniter is at, it won't fit. It seems like the coil/igniter pack is too big to pass through the brake booster to bolt up. We were able to start up the car with just one bolt connected. But I connected some wires to the bracket to give it more ground.
    9. Exhaust piping is different. If you're low on funds like I was, I bolted up the engines exhaust piping to the cars exhaust piping. In turn I got good low-end torque, similar to the 5S-FE, but it affected my top end because of the cars smaller exhaust piping. And of course you'll need to get the O2 sensor connected since it is mounted on the exhaust piping directly under the engine.

    I might be missing some other issues, so feel free to ask me questions. Basically the swap is similar to a 3S-GTE swap but with some differences. For example, you won't have to deal with the fuel pump wiring issues like you do on the 3S-GTE swaps. Swapping in a 3rd gen 3S-GE would've been easier on a 6th gen Celica than on a 5th gen. So for those who want to spare themselves some of these issues, go with the 2nd gen on your 5th gen. For parts you can use most of the 3S-GTE parts we got over here. Or if not go to MR2OC.com and you'll find part numbers for the 3rd gen 3S-GE. Also the S54 tranny that comes with the engine has a longer final drive ratio than the S54 that came over here. So for those that want a quick 1/4 mile time, I suggest you swap a US S54 tranny.
    Last edited by BLADDER_MASTER; 04-07-2005 at 08:05 AM.

  20. #20

    Default

    thanks for that information. when i get closer to doing the swap i'll have some more questions to ask. bladder where are you located at?
    Bruce

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  21. #21
    Fenix
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    Bladder_Master: What was you're nick on Celica.net again?
    It's been so long since i've gone through this forum i've forgotten the names.

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slvrblt
    thanks for that information. when i get closer to doing the swap i'll have some more questions to ask. bladder where are you located at?
    Florida, but anyone is welcome to ask me questions.

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix
    Bladder_Master: What was you're nick on Celica.net again?
    It's been so long since i've gone through this forum i've forgotten the names.
    Same as now, BLADDER_MASTER. The thing was that I didn't post much on Celica.net. So probably thats why you don't remember me from there.
    Last edited by BLADDER_MASTER; 04-07-2005 at 08:06 AM.

  24. #24

    Default

    I also forgot to mention the speedo sensor. The 3rd gen 3S-GE S54 speedo sensor is electrical, while our 5th gen Celica's are mechanical. It seems like you can't swap over the S53 speedo sensor to the S54 because there connections are different. Although I did take a look at a S54 tranny from a 2nd gen 3S-GE and found that the connections are the same to our S53, even though the 2nd gen 3S-GE S54 is electrical. So if you're swapping in a 2nd gen 3S-GE, swapping the speedo sensor will be a snap. If you're swapping in a 3rd gen 3S-GE, you can either just use the S54 tranny that comes with the engine and deal with the stupid CEL popping up. Or you can swap your S53 tranny to it.

  25. #25

    Default

    Ok a few questions for Bladder_Master,
    What did you end up doing to resolve the speedo issue?
    Where did you get your engine from?
    and About how long did it take you to completet the swap?
    Bruce

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