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  1. #1
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    Default Rom Tune question

    Recently my car has started to bog off the line. This happened once up at the dragon a few weeks ago, and then just this past week twice leaving the line for starts at an autox.

    What is up? Is this something that is related to the AFM? I am wanting consistent running here, but I am to the point that perhaps that is just not possible on any stock 2nd gen equipment regardless of any tuning or modification.

    Components are new, O2 is new, knock is your own with new shielded wiring. Injectors have been cleaned by WitchHunters, etc. I can not attribute this to any specific part so much as engine management. All the sensors in the coolant kneck are new, etc. It is all fresh.

    I feel that this is an issue with the AFM between the transition point from vac to boost. For the most part the car is smooth on 15psi. Anything lower than 14 and I start to notice some timing being pulled cause its just too rich. Once I'm at 15psi at WOT then things smooth out considerable. That, I'm happy with so obviously the maps by ATS a great!

    Only, there is still this consistency issue.

    Any idea before I go wasting money or considering other EMS?

  2. #2
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    I noticed today that my AFM has the trade marks of skipping a few teeth..

    As we all have known, the AFM is a horrible little piece in our EFI system!!

    The following are not my pictures, but they are what mine looks like on the ring gear of my AFM. I will have my own picture to follow though I just sealed it back up without taking one.

    I will reference information as well so that Pattersom on MR2OC gets the credit he deserves for the use of the material.


    My AFM's ring gear had the skip teeth marks.. much like these:







    (http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=331891)

    I find it interesting that this was noticed and picked up by Scott at ATS.
    Then Aaron at ATS made the following comment, "I am starting to wonder if AFM springs can actully get weaker over time and make the AFM easier to open and therefore cause richer A/F's? I've been inside a few AFM's lately and have seen scratch marks on the toothed wheel that looked like the spring had actually slipped too." LINK

    Could this be an issue? The thread on the MR2OC did not go very far, suprisingly.

    Slack on the AFM could create all kinds of hesitation issues.

    Moving this ring gear back into its original spot would make sense to me. It would be logical to assume initial response and on/off throttle transition would be better if the spring were tighter, it would react quicker.

    Would that not be true?

  3. #3

  4. #4

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    Mark you beginning point on your AFM and start adjusting. You can always put it back. Do you have a WBO2 sensor/gauge?

    Aaron

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATSAaron
    Mark you beginning point on your AFM and start adjusting. You can always put it back. Do you have a WBO2 sensor/gauge?

    Aaron
    I'm working on getting a WB as we speak; mine looks to have skipped 3 teeth.

  6. #6
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    WB is coming, bung is on, still gotta pick up the unit from a buddy. Going to be using an LC1 datalogged on the laptop.

    In the meantime, this is my specific AFM:



    Looking a bit closer, we can see there are marks that my AFM has skipped two teeth out!



    I have never opened and messed with the AFM. I am suprised to see this mark. It would be a counter clockwise movement to readjust back. It would make me believe there is possibly some sloop in the tension of the spring, however much a tooth or two teeth is exactly.

    I did turn on the car to see how it moved, it was amazingly linear. I'm very surprised to be honest how exact as I blipped the throttle.

  7. #7
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    Currently, this car is pulling like a freight train. Very consistent, this is more how the rom tune initially felt. ECU was not reset. Then reset as well, continued same running, good. I will have more accurate information in the future with the WB. and accurate information of what I changed. Currently seeing 15-16psi. I'm waiting for another stumble.

  8. #8
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    I have taken quite a bit of time with my car to try and locate the issue.

    I believe it was primarily an intake / throttle body leak.

    I have adjusted the AFM but results have shown nothing negative. I do feel overall response is quicker though! I note this, cause its VERY true! Could also be due to a the vac leak, very easily.

    The car is running 12.6 on mild heavy throttle and 10.8 on very initial readings into a full on pull (aborted, only used for initial measurement).

    ATS, this car is pulling like a crazy! I haven't put race gas in my rom tune.. but holly crap it feels like I have! I will have some full pulls here soon the more confidence I get in doing it. 15psi is what I'm running right now.

  9. #9

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    Remember at the Dragon Clay I told you your car didnt feel like it should. I think youre onto something, but I think youre chasing the same crap all Gen2 owners are dealing with. My gen2 EFI crap ran awesome when it ran good. It was just inconsistent as hell. I replaced everything in mine too, even tried a different AFM, even checked to make sure mine hadnt slipped, etc. Nothing helped. Some days it was fast as hell. Some days it felt kinda meh. I dont think they can romtune that behavior out of it.

    I dunno man. I hope you get it sorted, your research is definately good to read over and use for troubleshooting for others. I just know I got tired of it and moved to the Gen3 ECU.

    Which of course has its own set of problems too. Lesser of 2 evils it is.
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  10. #10
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    Ya, no doubt I'm onto the issue, I had a week there that this thing was just flying! Obvious additional 25-30hp, all after an ECU reset.

    We'll see, I'm just going to continue doing what I have been. There is definitely a 'sweet spot' and I've just gotta figure out what it is exactly that puts the ECU into a happy mode (or more specifically the high octane maps). The obvious answer would seem to be knock count.

    I was thinking about it and last time I reset the ECU I did start the car and idle it while getting the WB all setup. So if there is an interval of time required for the ECU to go into the high octane maps, perhaps I surpassed that interval of time and all was good.

    This last time I reset the ECU, I initially went out to try getting some info to datalog so it wasn't a gentle initial drive.

    I can only assume that due to the different initial loads put on the engine that the ECU has reacted differently in both situations.

    We'll see.. if I could keep the car in this happy mode, man its night and day and I would be VERY content with the GenII setup and rom tune. Hopefully I'll have more answers shortly, and perhaps it will help someone else.
    Last edited by Trance4c; 06-10-2009 at 09:43 PM.

  11. #11
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    Notes for changes:

    Removed positive battery terminal

    Removed EFI fuse

    Removed 3rd plug (consists of our BATT and +B1 +B terminals)

    So I have removed all sources of power all the way to the ECU

    Sat for about 25-30 minutes, hooked back up positive battery.

    Reinstalled the EFI fuse

    Plugged back in 3rd plug

    Car sits, should be all reset including hard memory for any possible knock counts.

    I'm gunna sit on it for a bit, just in that state.

  12. #12

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    Thanks for the PM on the OC to remind me. Just sitting turned off won't do anything. Letting it idle might work, but you need to go out and drive it gentle...basically you need to fool it into thinking you aren't about to beat on it.

    If you really want, I could reprogram you a chip with a milder limp mode, but that's removing a safety feature.

    Aaron

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATSAaron
    Thanks for the PM on the OC to remind me. Just sitting turned off won't do anything. Letting it idle might work, but you need to go out and drive it gentle...basically you need to fool it into thinking you aren't about to beat on it.

    If you really want, I could reprogram you a chip with a milder limp mode, but that's removing a safety feature.

    Aaron

    Ok, so your thinking its probably the same thing? This is the difference between the low and high octane mapping? Specifically the ignition timing difference?

    I would rather not remove a safety feature. I also realize leaving it off won't do anything, but its not my DD so it doesn't have to move right away. I will let it idle and do some gentle driving.

    I'll let you know if the car goes back into the high octane dynamic timing. Its a very noticable difference. Thanks for the reply Aaron!!

  14. #14
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    Ok, the last reset has now made the car much worse.

  15. #15
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    Did another reset, gentle riding again, pedal is lighter. Mildy getting into it the car feels like it wants to go again, not held back. A small burst felt good, still not perfect, but much better! This is crazy..

  16. #16
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    I'm getting some race gas tomorrow.. blah...

    I bet it all smooths out then when I do.. anyone up for bets? lol

  17. #17

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    You can do that?!!
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  18. #18

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    I JUST noticed this thread.
    So what exactly was the issue again, your timing belt jumped or your distributor was set incorrectly?
    Boosted. Tuned. Ready.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagos
    I JUST noticed this thread.
    So what exactly was the issue again, your timing belt jumped or your distributor was set incorrectly?

    Main problem was distributor rotated and retarded the engine.
    Last edited by Trance4c; 07-17-2009 at 10:59 PM.

  20. #20

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    i see.
    so now with the timing set correctly, the car still pulls well on just plan pump gas, or is there any race gas in there?

    i find it odd that your a/f ratio is so rich. when i tried out your rom tune, my a/f ratio was in the mid 11s on that same ecu. i guess its because you are on a ct27 with the exhaust cam mod, and are able to hit a higher fuel cell forcing the injectors 100% open.

    Any plans to put the car on a dynojet and see what it does?
    Last edited by Lagos; 07-07-2009 at 12:26 AM.
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  21. #21
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    The car was completely not running right though when you had the ECU.

    A/F's seem to be right on par though for the mods, ATS says its 17psi on pump gas, 20 maybe on race gas. So its right in that ballpark.

    After the distributor issue, I've been on the pump gas ever since I tried prior to put some race gas in to no major different result. That's basically when I knew something had changed and to step back and do the basics. So far, I actually don't know what the race map does still. Though I can imagine!

    I'd like to get on a dyno.. only just a few small things and I plan to. Hardest part is still someone I trust with it on there. Soon I hope, we'll see what it is making exactly.

  22. #22

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    Go to a shop that lets you do your own run. Thats really the best thing to do.
    The race gas map probably just adds a bunch more timing. You could probably run that with alcohol injection.
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  23. #23
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    Have you tried playing with the intake cam at all?
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  24. #24
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    Nope, intake cam is 1 degree off (retarded) ATDC from my stock cam lobe. It is on a stock cam gear, I didn't see the need for the intake cam to be adjustable on this setup. Its a known fact that even the GenIII intake cam is retarded 2.5 degrees from the stock GenII intake cam. So this was more than acceptable. I did this on purpose. Sometimes I believe simpler is better.

    The main reason for the intake cam is the longer duration, so the engine doesn't have to fight to breath in as much. That was my objective. Tuning the top end of the power curve is done with the exhaust cam.

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