CelicaTech Main Page  CelicaTech Member List CelicaTech Image Gallery CelicaTech Data Garage Chatroom CelicaTech Forums Search CelicaTech Forums Contact CelicaTech
+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4
Results 76 to 93 of 93
  1. #76

    Default

    From my experience you can't build exhausts using a calculator
    Cams & porting play a huge role and you can't factor it in properly.
    Genereally speaking the longer the headers the more torque, look at superbikes.
    The headers get longer every year.

    The idea behind a collector is to use exhaust pulses to "suck" mixture into the following cylinders,
    the more the suction the more air/fuel gets drawn into the next cylinder.
    Nascar etc exhausts actually have the pipes crossing as well to increase this effect.

    If the firing order is wrong (most GE/FE a/m pipes) the effect is lost,
    the ideal is to have the exhaust pulses spiraling and the gas spinning in the pipe.
    (Empty a coke bottle, then empty it while rotating the water)

    Short headers are used in high RPM race engines, for street use we need to increase power/torque
    much lower down and the ideal is a 4-2 system.
    However space & cost are limiting factors and I thought this was meant to be a budget build?

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  2. #77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    That TRD header looks like a copy of the Tanaka (JDM) headers
    The primaries look too big and the runners too short to be a good header for most 5sfes. You would have to measure everything and do the math to be sure. If you revved to 7500-8500rpms then that header might be a good choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    The quickest/cheapest route to FE power is to use the later head/manifolds/pistons, each gen got more and more power

    Later head has more ribs in front and makes a lot more power -

    Early porting is tiny compared to later type head

    Later cams have much more lift & duration, probably not a good idea to use with the early head and piston.
    Sorry I have to respectfully disagree with most of that. The later engines only made 5hp more and it can all be attributed to the tuning and addition of a knock system. As a matter of fact rev1 cams have more duration then rev2 cams but only a little less lift. When all is said and done they act pretty much the same because the differences are so miniscule. The difference in base circle which you have shown in your pics does not change the amount the valve lifts or how long it is open. More ribs also does not equate to more power. The older heads do not crack or deform so the ribs are likely there because of the bigger base circle and valve train parts requiring thinner walls to fit in the same space. Also you are showing the exhaust ports which make less of a difference then the intake ports. It could even be argued that the smaller exhaust ports will make more overall power because of less reversion. The intake ports are much more important and are closely matched between the revs. As a matter of fact the last rev1 head I ported required less material be removed, not more, to size it to 1mm oversized valves. Lastly the later pistons (96-01) are better but only because they use thinner rings with less friction. The gains you will get are small so unless you are replacing them anyway it is not worth your money or time.

    The intake manifold could possibly be an improvement. It looks like it has a slightly bigger plenum but the runners look the same like they are still sized for an engine that stops breathing well at 6000rpms. If they revised it for a 2.2 liter and not a 2.0 like the original it may help some.

    So I have to say that using the later parts is not at all the quickest/cheapest way to more power. Did Toyota make improvements in their design? Yes but not anything that makes it worth the trouble of upgrading to them unless you are replacing things anyway. The quickest/cheapest upgrades with the most effect are still cams, header and exhaust in that order. If money were no object then it would be cams, intake manifold, header, then exhaust.

  3. #78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    From my experience you can't build exhausts using a calculator
    Cams & porting play a huge role and you can't factor it in properly.
    Genereally speaking the longer the headers the more torque, look at superbikes.
    The headers get longer every year.

    The idea behind a collector is to use exhaust pulses to "suck" mixture into the following cylinders,
    the more the suction the more air/fuel gets drawn into the next cylinder.
    Nascar etc exhausts actually have the pipes crossing as well to increase this effect.

    If the firing order is wrong (most GE/FE a/m pipes) the effect is lost,
    the ideal is to have the exhaust pulses spiraling and the gas spinning in the pipe.
    (Empty a coke bottle, then empty it while rotating the water)

    Short headers are used in high RPM race engines, for street use we need to increase power/torque
    much lower down and the ideal is a 4-2 system.
    However space & cost are limiting factors and I thought this was meant to be a budget build?
    Every good aftermarket and OEM header is built using a calculator. It is also true that the math is so complex that you can't get exactly what you want without expensive software and modeling. And I agree the cams are an integral part of that math. However you can, and many people do, successfully ballpark it to get good results, myself included. If you start with an understanding of what it is doing, all the different effects, then you can get much closer, more quickly then you will with trial and error. Most of us can't afford trial and error or modeling software so we either get what is out there or as close as we can build with one try. And that is why we use the math. And yes it works as long as you don't expect your output to be any more precise then your input. The more factors you can take into account the more accurate your results will be. Which is why many find the math to be useless to them. Garbage in, garbage out.

    So what you have listed as general rules of thumb are true (except the spiral thing). But they don't get you any closer to what you want until you have a place to start. That is where the math can be the most useful. By comparing the stock parts to the mods we want to try we can get a pretty good guess as to what a mod will do. Those rules of thumb are also only good in a general sort of way. You can in fact build a 4-2-1 header that makes peaky torque and you can also make a 4-1 header that is broad and flat. The length can also vary depending on which reflection you tune it to.

    As for the spiral thing, pressure is king when it comes to airflow. Spiraling and velocity are unwanted effects of pressure and flow and not the other way around. I'm sure some will argue that but we can save it for another thread. The mentality of having velocity is a result of companies oversimplifying things to sell products. The spiral thing is just a variation of the vortex insert gimmic in your intake. It hurts flow, it does not help it. The spiral only works in an emptying a bottle because it lets air get back into the bottle to displace the liquid. Poke a hole in the top of the bottle and it will flow out slower when you make it spiral.

  4. #79

    Default

    The purpose of this thread was to make more power on a limited budget?
    Seems your 5S motors are very similar, wheras I've been looking at cheaply upgrading the 86-89 3S FE (90kw) using later 5S parts (110kw)

    I'm aware there are calculations for exhaust sizing but even top teams will still dyno several different exhausts before settling and even then
    will use different headers at different tracks. There simply is no "perfect pipe"
    As for a 7500 rpm FE engine - I don't think so, most would opt for more power lower down and some reliability. An 8000rpm FE is an expensive
    motor without the stock ecu.

    Yes, my spiral example was a bad example. Fact remains that spiralling gases/liquids travel faster though a restricted space. Sequential headers will
    always produce better results on a dyno.

    No the ribs on the late model heads don't make more power. I was referring to the enlarged ports, revised chambers, cams, inlet, exhaust and pistons as
    shown in the photos

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  5. #80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    The purpose of this thread was to make more power on a limited budget?
    Seems your 5S motors are very similar, wheras I've been looking at cheaply upgrading the 86-89 3S FE (90kw) using later 5S parts (110kw)
    This thread was created to steer people away from the mods that do not give noticeable power gains and instead direct them at the ones that do. The mods you are talking about are NOT in the category of best bang for the buck and some of them will give you no added power at all. I know because I have tried most of them. I am not saying that a few are not worth doing but they do not give you the significant gains you get from the mods I list in the first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    I'm aware there are calculations for exhaust sizing but even top teams will still dyno several different exhausts before settling and even then will use different headers at different tracks. There simply is no "perfect pipe"
    Those top teams use the math or pay someone to do it to get them close enough to tweak the last few HP out of it. We don't have the resources to do that so within a few percent of best power is good enough. If you want to custom make 10 headers to see which one gives you that extra couple of HP then have at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    As for a 7500 rpm FE engine - I don't think so, most would opt for more power lower down and some reliability. An 8000rpm FE is an expensive motor without the stock ecu.
    You do not loose reliability if you build to the same standards as stock and follow the specific cautions I put in the first post. I can guarantee you that the same sized engine that makes more torque at a higher rpm will make more power and be the faster car all things being equal. That is because of torque multiplication in the gearing. You have to monsterously increase torque to make a car faster at a lower RPM by using a larger engine or forced induction. As an example, the highest hp 5sfe I have seen with stock cams was 135whp. My high revving 5sfe with 3 full points less compression makes 6 whp more and would stomp a mudhole in any 5sfe with stock cams. My car keeps up with stock 3sgte powered MR2s and I have 25 less HP at the wheels. Gearing is huge when it comes to how fast a car is and the higher revs let you take better advantage of your gears.

    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    Yes, my spiral example was a bad example. Fact remains that spiralling gases/liquids travel faster though a restricted space. Sequential headers will always produce better results on a dyno.
    Yes they travel faster... and you get less air through the space because of it and make less power. There have been all kinds of gimmicks out there selling that myth. Remember the Tornado? By sequential headers do you mean stepped? They do not "always" give you best power but it depends on what you are looking for and how well they are designed. An equal length header with no steps can give more peak power. If you really want to increase power stack your cams, header and IM on the same RPM. Jim Snodgrass did this with his 147whp 5sfe. Not the best for having a wide powerband but it gets your dyno numbers up.

    Quote Originally Posted by schnee View Post
    No the ribs on the late model heads don't make more power. I was referring to the enlarged ports, revised chambers, cams, inlet, exhaust and pistons as shown in the photos
    The problem is those other things you list don't add any noticeable power. The ports got smaller on the later heads, the quench area was reduced and the cams have less duration. You can strap a 99 5sfe into a car with 91 electronics and it makes pretty much the same power.

  6. #81

    Default

    Will a dual exhaust hinder the performance of the 5sfe I'm pretty sure it doesn't help but I was wondering if it hurts it.

  7. #82
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco Eric Barrera is on a distinguished road

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Northridge, CA
    Posts
    1,044
    Images
    8

    Default

    Less back pressure so what do you think?

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    Originally Posted by Mafix
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    2 step that bitch when he walks around back!

  8. #83

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grassdragger738 View Post
    Will a dual exhaust hinder the performance of the 5sfe I'm pretty sure it doesn't help but I was wondering if it hurts it.
    It depends on what you mean by dual. If you are taking two pairs of cylinders (1 and 4 separated from 2 and 3 all the way back) you could theoretically focus torque better at a single rpm by using wave tuning. That design would probably be better for a hybrid or a generator though.

    If you mean taking a single exhaust and piping it out two exits, increasing total area but not length, then it acts just like you have a bigger pipe on the back. Basically it doesn't flow as well at the rpm the original did but has a second peak at the rpm where the larger pipe's area flows better. The effects are not that noticeable though unless you go to the extremes. So basically adding a dual exit muffler will loose you a little bit of low end and gain some up higher, depending on the area of the pipes, but it is a very small amount unless your exhaust is excessively small for the application or way to big.

  9. #84

    Default

    Thank you for that info

  10. #85

    Default

    by instaling either one of those factory headers from the 4th gen gt-s celica or the 97 camry can u still pass visual? and what about emmisions? do they work as good as an after market header?also are the cams hard to find? right now all my car has is both cats so from the cat to the back i got a 2.25 inch pipe with 3'' oval dual tip baffeld muffler and K&N drop in. so basically im a go for the mild build.
    1990 Celica GT

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  11. #86

    Default

    [QUOTE=Huaraches;30208658]by instaling either one of those factory headers from the 4th gen gt-s celica or the 97 camry can u still pass visual? QUOTE]

    I would think either would be fine as long as you don't ditch the heat shield.

    As far as I know, the only way to get cams is to get some re-ground. I think Colt and Webcam have stock profiles for the 5S, maybe a few more. If I recall, you could spend around $500 on the regrinds and they net somthing like 20-30Hp, I hear it's one of the most effective upgrades for the 5S.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    She won't be going anywhere for a good while.
    But i still love her...

    In the words of Archimedes, "Give me a long enough lever, and a place to rest it, or I will kill a hostage every hour."

  12. #87

    Default

    would the heat shield still fit dough ? ok yeah those cams will be the last to go in jaja gota save up for them so like after all that how much hp and trq would i be hitting?
    1990 Celica GT

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  13. #88

    Default

    Yeah, if I recall at least the camry header has all the mounting holes for the shield on the header itself so you should be able to keep the shield.

    From what I've seen, I would expect a healthy 5S with intake, header, exhaust and cams to be putting down 130-140 HP to the wheels. Doesn't sound like much but it's a nice considering we start at about 100whp.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    She won't be going anywhere for a good while.
    But i still love her...

    In the words of Archimedes, "Give me a long enough lever, and a place to rest it, or I will kill a hostage every hour."

  14. #89

    Default

    Oh ok then ill look for them in the junk yard instead of the gt-s manifold. So would it still have the holes for the oxygen sensors ? ...doesnt it already have 130 hp oh a 5s..whp? Whats that stand for?
    1990 Celica GT

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  15. #90
    Doesn't like the tuna here. BabyBear is a splendid one to behold BabyBear is a splendid one to behold BabyBear is a splendid one to behold BabyBear is a splendid one to behold BabyBear is a splendid one to behold BabyBear is a splendid one to behold BabyBear's Avatar
    BabyBear has been to an annual Dragon Meet! BabyBear has donated to the forums! BabyBear helped Azzy get to The Dragon in 2009. BabyBear helped bring Chaos back to the Dragon

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The Bear Den
    Posts
    517
    Images
    186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Huaraches View Post
    Oh ok then ill look for them in the junk yard instead of the gt-s manifold. So would it still have the holes for the oxygen sensors ? ...doesnt it already have 130 hp oh a 5s..whp? Whats that stand for?
    Wheel Horse Power. The amount of power making it to the ground after drivetrain and accessory loss. The horsepower ratings that the manufactures give for their cars are always horsepower at the flywheel not at the wheels.

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    Originally Posted by MCcelica
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    Mine still makes me jump when it clicks on if I'm not expecting it. (But then again, I'm a little girl).

  16. #91
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of
    MrWOT has donated to the forums! MrWOT helped get Luni's MR2 back on the road!

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Boulder Creek, California
    Posts
    2,826
    Images
    49

    Default

    I still have yet to see anyone add a proper collector (that I can recall anyway ) to any of the available 5S manifolds, and that's where the real power comes from. A header without a proper collector may lower backpressure and smooth the flow path, but the collector is what generates the negative pressure waves and times them.

    If any enterprising 5S owner wants to post up the diameter and length (cylinder head to merge) of their header, I have the software to calculate what collector is optimal in a 2500rpm band.
    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  17. #92

    Default

    oh ok now it makes sence jaja so with all that how much hp will it be just to the flywheel?
    1990 Celica GT

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  18. #93

    Default

    so would that mean my O2 sensors wont be connected if i install the camry manifold? thats the collector where it goes in right or is it something else?
    1990 Celica GT

    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Similar Threads

  1. List of 7th Gens.
    By badceli in forum 7th Generation
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 10-18-2008, 05:49 PM
  2. probably ditching 5sfe for V8 power
    By Hookecho in forum Custom Engineering/Design/Fabrication
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 03-13-2008, 10:59 AM
  3. Turbocharging my girl's ride.
    By Gigabelova in forum Forced Induction Applications and Tuning
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-14-2007, 03:26 AM
  4. Power graphs for 3SGE & 5SFE?
    By 88GT2GTS in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-17-2006, 04:58 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Top Member List Chat Forum Search Contact Top