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  1. #1

    Default Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction

    I'm seeing a lot of posts (on other boards) with people asking how to make power on a 5SFE and getting some pretty unhelpful responses. So I put this together to maybe help them out and thought I would post it over here on Celicatech too:

    Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction

    First let's just get this right out in the open. NA power is never cheap and it is not something you can just throw together expecting great results. You can't just turn up the boost to hide mismatched parts or poor design like many of the turbo guys do. The benefits though are quick throttle response and predictable, consistent power which is very desirable at the limits. The power comes from the combination of all the right parts and synchronicity of design so everything is going to have to be working together to give you a great result.

    Ok so where do you start? As has been said by myself and others many times, "Always start with the cams". I'll give TomsMR2 credit for spreading that very important point. More then anything else, the cams determine where your torque will be and how much of it you will have. The cams are responsible for the highest torque peaks you see in any dyno graph. Everything else, valve size, valve angle, ports size and shape, whatever is all secondary to this. These other things are not going to be significant road blocks until you are trying to get all of a motors potential and we are going to be no where near that. The problem is you need to plan ahead so your cams match your ultimate goals. Don't buy a mild set of cams and expect them to be able to take you much past 150rwhp.

    The second most critical part is the header. A good header will take torque from places you don't need it and add to places you do. Pipe diameter and primary length are the two most important things to look for although you should also make sure the pipes are mandrel bent with smooth transitions and a good collector.

    The third most important is the exhaust. Mainly it just needs to be smooth and not too restrictive or too big at the RPMs where you want to make power.

    For practicality I am going to split 5SFEs into 3 groups:

    Mild Build

    First group is the mildly built 5SFE. 99% of all current 5SFEs fall into this category. Cams are either stock or mild enough not to require tuning (Webcam 294 grind equivalent) or fuel system modification. These will have all bolt-ons, just the stuff you find from board vendors or on ebay. They would include the basic I/H/E (intake/header/exhaust) and sometimes things like a shaved head or a lightened flywheel. We have all seen these builds producing everywhere from 110-145rwhp and are often still reasonable gains for the money.

    For this level a header with 1-3/8" to 1-5/8" primaries and 28" or longer runners will probably give you the best gains. Generally a 4-2-1 header will give you less of a peak but a broader power band if that is what you want. Avoid really short runners and anything with 1-7/8" or larger outside diameter primaries. Those would put the torque gains beyond the power range of the cams. The exhaust should be at least 2" up to 2-1/4" OD and be as smooth and high flowing as possible. Mandrel bends are best. A stock turbo exhaust works ok at this level and if you need a CAT to pass inspection then get a high flow one to put somewhere before the muffler.

    If you pick your parts right you can spend less then $1000 and gain more then 30rwhp which puts you right up there with the gen2 3sge but with more torque. Focus on the cams, the header and the exhaust. All other mods at this level are minimal gains.

    (Bare minimum)
    Delta cams, Colt cams, Teds Cams or Webcam 294: $200-600
    Shims to install cams: $0-140
    Header: $150
    Exhaust: $100-600

    Performance Build

    The second group is for 5SFEs with street performance cams. On an NA anything above the Webcam 294 with more lift (up to 9mm) or duration up to a 101 grind or 272 advertised duration in my opinion would be in this group. These require larger injectors and tuning to be safe. They also generally require upgraded valve springs (3SGTE for rev1 or 2JZGTE for rev2) because of the extra lift. Check your coil bind and if you don't have 0.360" travel from the base circle then upgrade them.

    The header needs to be something a little more purpose built but some of the ones you can buy will do. Runners can be a little shorter but I wouldn't go less then 24" and the primary diameter can be a little bigger if you want more top end. 1-5/8" to 1-3/4" diameter should be good for this level. Power will move up closer to red line between 5000-6000rpms so you will want a 2-1/2" high flowing exhaust.

    You don't have to raise the red line or do any bottom end mods to have usable power but at this level it is something to consider because with these cams you will able to use it. If you already have a piggyback then it is an easy thing to overclock the 5s ECU and retune. It actually got rid of some of the querkiness I had with the larger injectors. The only concern is the rod bolts when you start going past 6500rpms. It is a good idea if you exceed this to grind the crank and put in 3s rods or find an upgraded 5s bolt (no one has found some yet that I have seen for a reasonable price except maybe the slightly stronger later model 5SFE ones from Toyota).

    This is also the level where some other mods are going to start to have a greater effect like having a custom intake manifold, bigger throttle body, head porting, larger valves and higher CR. Again if you pick your parts right you can get some decent gains for reasonable money and still have a little room to grow. Since no one has dynoed one of these yet I can only guess on power levels. Probably 150-180rwhp depending on what other supporting mods are done. The highest on record 5SFEs fall somewhere in between Mild and Performance because they had the fuel control but only mild cams. A 150rwhp or higher 5SFE should be able to be built for for less then $2000 if you find the right deals and install everything yourself.

    (Bare minimum)
    Webcams 577 or 101 grind: $600
    Shims to install cams: $0-140
    Valve springs: $50-100 plus a head gasket if you have to pull the head to install them
    Header: $150-300
    Exhaust: $100-600
    295cc or 315cc Injectors: $50-100
    Fuel Controller: $250-700
    Wideband O2 (if you want to tune it yourself): $250-450
    Tuning (on a dyno if you need someone else to tune it): $100-400

    (Going to town)
    3s rods: $200-500
    Shaving the head (poor man's CR increase): $40-160
    Custom Pistons (rich man's CR increase): $650
    +1mm valves: $400-600
    Porting $0-800
    Rebuild costs: $300-500
    Custom Intake manifold: $200-1000
    60mm Throttle Body: $100

    Racing Build

    This is where things start to get serious and parts need to be custom made. All the things that uninformed people always list as needed to get power from a 5SFE seem to fall into this. Cams at 280 advertised duration or higher with lifts from 9mm on up, shimless buckets, double valve springs, oversized valves, professional head work, EMS mandatory, forged rods, custom high CR pistons, upgraded ignition, high flow oil pump or dry sump, balanced bottom end, light weight everything, custom header, custom intake manifold, you name it. Racing is expensive so be prepared to empty your wallet but the sky is the limit. If you really want to build a 5SFE to its potential then contact me and I can help you figure out what you need.

    I know this is a pretty general overview but it should be a good start for someone. Helpful comments or questions are welcome in this thread but if you want to expound the glories of the engine swap or forced induction please put it somewhere else.

    Thanks,
    MrTurrari

    Edit: Updated for accuracy 09/19/10
    Last edited by MrTurrari; 09-19-2010 at 06:23 PM.

  2. #2

    Default

    Well said. I think this constitutes a nice starting point for an NA 5SFE discussion.
    "The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."
    Michel Foucault

  3. #3
    Drove all the way to TN, for the hotel. CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO has a reputation beyond repute CriScO's Avatar
    CriScO has been to an annual Dragon Meet! CriScO has donated to the forums! CriScO helped get Grayscale's Celica towed from The Dragon in 2008. CriScO helped Azzy get to The Dragon in 2009. CriScO helped bring Chaos back to the Dragon

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    You're the man!

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    The Coupe:
    - Custom SRI, external coil distributor conversion, MSD Blaster 2 coil, MSD 6a ignition, OBX 4-1 Header, 2.5" exhaust with Magnaflow muffler, Eibach springs, GT-S hub/rear disc conversion, Lots of shiny red engine paint, Ridiculously unnecessary 5" tach, Tons of fun useless switches and pretty glowing red lights, Currently sitting in the driveway with a snapped timing belt I'm too lazy to fix...
    The Hatch:
    - Custom SRI, External coil distributor conversion, Accel performance coil, Hayden transmission cooler, ASI dual-core aluminum ST165 radiator, Some shiny black engine paint, A few glowing red lights, Temporarily downgraded to daily driver status...

  4. #4

    Default

    Very nice. I'm glad to finally have some one with tried and true experience here. Once this thread has been viewed enough I will sticky it.

    Question: how do you feel about shaving the block instead of the head?
    Last edited by hookecho; 07-07-2008 at 10:32 PM.

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  5. #5

    Default

    great job
    95 camry 2 door
    5sfe (43,764 miles of sexyness) 5 speed
    speed MODS:Short shifter,Sold torque mount,strut bar,Power steering delete,A/c delete,Egr delete,Pcv breather,TB coolant bypass (x2),Stage 3 racing 5 puck clutch,Balancer shafts removed,balancer shaft oil galley plugged,1 off oil tray,NGK Iridium Spark Plugs .055 gap,summit street cd,4age dizzy cap,8mm plug and coil wires,summit cd coil,"cat" high flow 3sgte water pump,low temp thermostat,hyper voltage stabilizer, grounding system,Generic header,2 1/2 pipe header to muf, magnaflow high flow cat,summit turbo muf,vafc,rebuilt head (light p+P and mill .040) and 2 tb intake mani, hood spaced 3/4 inch, 255 lph fuel pump, Px3 thermal insulating Intake manifold Gasket, moog sway bar bushings, none “flamboyant” shift light
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  6. #6

    Default

    MrTurrari,

    Got any recommendations on what piggybacks/ems to use on these various builds? Either in your own experience, or what others doing these builds have used?

    I know it's fairly universal, but it'd be nice to see your input, considering you've been there, done that at this point.

  7. #7

    Default

    Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky Sticky

    PS grayscale, have you moved yet or still in Atlanta?

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    2016 Hyundai Veloster Turbo Rally Edition <- no build daily

    I was just going to look. With fire. And lightning. And reanimated chipmunks. And raccoons. On fire.


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    Originally Posted by The Captain

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    Originally Posted by Murgatroy
    Chaos pulls on Marshall's GT.
    But he has a free hand to grope boobies while he drives....

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    Originally Posted by andy
    so gay he cant even drive straight.

  8. #8

    Default

    Thanks guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by grayscale
    Question: how do you feel about shaving the block instead of the head?
    The 5SFE has a close to zero deck height so you can't shave the block very much before you start having piston to head contact. It's just easier and cheaper to shave the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciento44
    Got any recommendations on what piggybacks/ems to use on these various builds? Either in your own experience, or what others doing these builds have used?
    I am using an SMT6 and really like it. It is a little sensitive to noise but once I put on OEM spark plug wires it settled down. The SAFC-II, SAFC-Neo and Emanage will get you by, especially if you have a rev2 with the knock system. The SMT6, SMT7 and Emanage Ultimate have timing control which could be useful on a rev1 to make a little more power or make it a safer tune. With the rev2 the timing control isn't much use because the computer undoes your changes in most cases. I might try pulling some timing in places once I go turbo though to give the ECU a better starting point.

    I am finding, with the rev2 at least, that an EMS is not needed until you get to a much higher level. If you were trying to squeeze every last bit of power out then an EMS would be the way to go. I have to tell you though that once I over clocked my ECU, even with the bigger injectors and piggyback, it behaves as good as stock.

  9. #9

    Default

    And a side note, the 90-93 Hot-Shot headers are now on sale.

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    2016 Hyundai Veloster Turbo Rally Edition <- no build daily

    I was just going to look. With fire. And lightning. And reanimated chipmunks. And raccoons. On fire.


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    Originally Posted by The Captain

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    Originally Posted by Murgatroy
    Chaos pulls on Marshall's GT.
    But he has a free hand to grope boobies while he drives....

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    Originally Posted by andy
    so gay he cant even drive straight.

  10. #10

    Default

    where do you get the 17 mhz crystal from?

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenmachine87
    where do you get the 17 mhz crystal from?
    My local Radio Shack carries them.

  12. #12

    Default

    I ordered mine through a local electronics supply shop who made a big order with Digi-key. More details in this thread:

    http://www.celicatech.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34405

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by METDeath
    And a side note, the 90-93 Hot-Shot headers are now on sale.
    how do I contact hotshot. no info on your link

  14. #14
    let's eat lburner has a spectacular aura about lburner has a spectacular aura about lburner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.W. 93 GT.
    how do I contact hotshot. no info on your link
    http://www.hotshot.com/Hotshot_site0...enu_toyota.htm

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  15. #15
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayscale
    Very nice. I'm glad to finally have some one with tried and true experience here. Once this thread has been viewed enough I will sticky it.

    Question: how do you feel about shaving the block instead of the head?

    beat ya to it pimp! no since in delaying the inevitible. besides, i haven't been around for a few weeks so i needed to flex a little.

    yeah, shaving the head is more practical with our motor. it's also good to have a little milled off the block so that you get a good seal on the head gasket. especially if you use a metal one. i actually had an extra .010'' milled off my head a couple weeks ago. so i'm at a total of .050'' shorter on the lid now. also disassembled the block and had it line bored then had it balanced. i didn't do that on the rebuild a couple years back and wished i had. so since i decided to do a little more headwork i figured, what the hell.

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    "Pain and despair, damage and beatings, they don't end the world. The world ends when you're dead. You've got more punishment in store. Until then, stand it like a man and give some back".

  16. #16

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    very nice post , readin all that makes me want to rip apart my engine haha...im comming to a cross road real soon, its either the 3s swap, or a N/A build

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  17. #17

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    Hook, I thought you were going V-Weight?
    "The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."
    Michel Foucault

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hookecho
    beat ya to it pimp! no since in delaying the inevitible. besides, i haven't been around for a few weeks so i needed to flex a little.

    yeah, shaving the head is more practical with our motor. it's also good to have a little milled off the block so that you get a good seal on the head gasket. especially if you use a metal one. i actually had an extra .010'' milled off my head a couple weeks ago. so i'm at a total of .050'' shorter on the lid now. also disassembled the block and had it line bored then had it balanced. i didn't do that on the rebuild a couple years back and wished i had. so since i decided to do a little more headwork i figured, what the hell.
    so what are you at for a CR now with the totle being .050"?
    95 camry 2 door
    5sfe (43,764 miles of sexyness) 5 speed
    speed MODS:Short shifter,Sold torque mount,strut bar,Power steering delete,A/c delete,Egr delete,Pcv breather,TB coolant bypass (x2),Stage 3 racing 5 puck clutch,Balancer shafts removed,balancer shaft oil galley plugged,1 off oil tray,NGK Iridium Spark Plugs .055 gap,summit street cd,4age dizzy cap,8mm plug and coil wires,summit cd coil,"cat" high flow 3sgte water pump,low temp thermostat,hyper voltage stabilizer, grounding system,Generic header,2 1/2 pipe header to muf, magnaflow high flow cat,summit turbo muf,vafc,rebuilt head (light p+P and mill .040) and 2 tb intake mani, hood spaced 3/4 inch, 255 lph fuel pump, Px3 thermal insulating Intake manifold Gasket, moog sway bar bushings, none “flamboyant” shift light
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  19. #19
    Puts the skillz to the extreme! extremeskillz will become famous soon enough extremeskillz will become famous soon enough extremeskillz's Avatar
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    awesome writeup

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    She's sold
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    !


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  20. #20
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beingblueeyes
    so what are you at for a CR now with the totle being .050"?
    right at 10.5:1cr if not a hair over. with an .040in mill i was just a fraction under 10.5:1cr.

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    "Pain and despair, damage and beatings, they don't end the world. The world ends when you're dead. You've got more punishment in store. Until then, stand it like a man and give some back".

  21. #21
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hemlocke
    Hook, I thought you were going V-Weight?
    nah, i came to my senses. i decided to put that motor in a camaro.

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    "Pain and despair, damage and beatings, they don't end the world. The world ends when you're dead. You've got more punishment in store. Until then, stand it like a man and give some back".

  22. #22

    Default

    Good for you, man. If I was going to do an import with a V-8, it would be an S-13 0r 14 and an LS-1, or better.
    "The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."
    Michel Foucault

  23. #23

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    MrTurrari and Hookecho,

    Would there be any benefit to running a SAFC-II or NEO on a mild street built 5SFE or would it just be pointless?

    Reason I ask is i picked up a SAFC-II from a buddy of mine driving a gs-t eclipse for a decent price and was wondering if it would have any benefit for me? If not i'll sell it! I have everything with it, box plastic wrapping all the wires, and even the lil screen cover that he never took off!
    1993 Toyota Celica GT-S
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    2 inch MEGAN RACING LOWERING SPRINGS
    CAT-BACK EXHAUST

  24. #24
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    yeah, it would net you around 7hp if properly tuned. you should definately put it to use.

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    "Pain and despair, damage and beatings, they don't end the world. The world ends when you're dead. You've got more punishment in store. Until then, stand it like a man and give some back".

  25. #25

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    sweet... imma jump on that this week at my local shop and have them tune it for me!!
    1993 Toyota Celica GT-S
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