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  1. #1
    gen5
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    Default 3sge head on 5sfe block info needed

    Talked with mikeswickednick a little about this topic but I would like to get some more details. What 3sge heads could be used? Will the 5s intake match up or is the 3s intake better? Does anyone know if there is any serious modification involved, or will it pretty much bolt right on? If this head is a possibillity and what I've read about it is true, this could be a major upgrade. This would be essentially the same thing as the popular 20r/22r hybrid motor in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gens- better head+larger block=more bang
    Last edited by gen5; 02-26-2005 at 11:10 PM.

  2. #2
    Kwanza
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    All versions of the head should more or less bolt up. The 5S intake most likely won't match up... and it's a very poor intake manifold designed for a high rpm head like the 3SGE... so don't even bother. There should be no serious modification involved, depending on which generation 5SFE block you use. There is one that works with no mods... and there is one that requires modification. This is NOT like the 20/22R hyrbids... it is similar in theory... but doesn't work the same because of the volume differences between the 5SFE head and the 3SGE head (which is almost opposite that of the 20/22R). Simply mating a stock 3SG head to a stock 5S bottom end will hurt compression (substantial decrease), unlike with the 20/22R's which actually gained compression. This is because of the differences between the combustion chambers of the different heads and the piston design. Another thing you should note... the 5S block is NOT well suited to rev like the 3S block... so actually making power in n/a trim with the 3SGE head will be a task because of the 5S's long stroke. With some build up... perhaps... but I wouldn't try to push the stock 5S block into the 3SGE head's power range, which is upwards of 7000-7500 rpms... In theory, displacement adds the potential for more power, but in application, there are too many variables to predict. It'll be hard, IMO, to even hold onto the 3SG's power per liter with the 5S bottom. Torque gain is a given... but power is another story.

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member johnL is on a distinguished road

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    If you rebuild the 5S block it will rev to 9K no problem. Stock form the 5S block rev just as high as the 3S block.

    John L.

  4. #4
    BiscutWheels
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    You can rev the 5S block to whatever you want to, problem is the rod ratio is too short and you won't make power much past 6k. If you build the block, get custom pistons, which you will have to do anyway to keep compression, and get some longer rods to increase the rod ratio to about 1.6. This will help make power deeper in the RPM range.

    Nate

  5. #5
    Kwanza
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    JohnL... why do you believe that a rebuilt 5S bottom-end can be revved up to 9K? I'd like to know why you think that. Just so you know... this is with regard to reliability also... I'm talking about reliably revving to the upper rpms... not hitting it now and again and barely making it. I'm curious to know your take on it... cause last time around... you said the same thing with no explaination. Biscut is correct about the stroke ratio and piston dwell, which restricts ability to make torque at faster revolutions... but the whole revving idea, the engine won't live long at higher rpms without specific modifications. There is a major weak point that is evident when you look at the torque band. I'm not saying the bottom-end cannot rev at all, with proper build-up, it can rev as much as you want... but I'm saying, in all practical cases, it won't be able to sustain those rpms for long.

    Here's some relevant data... every single engine that was designed to rev... look at the stroke. 2ZZ (85mm), 4AG (77mm), 3SG (86mm), B16 (77.4mm), B18C (87.2mm), RB26 (73.7mm), C32B (78mm), K20A (86mm), F20C (84mm).

    IMO... if you were to do an n/a build up... do it with a performance n/a motor. 5SGE, if you ask the people that have tried it, won't make the kind of power a 3SGE can because of the bottom-end. Most of the guys that have done the conversion, eventually went with a 5SGTE set-up instead... but in n/a trim... I just don't see it as a practical way of making good n/a power. A 5SGE hybrid will require just as much work as a 3SGE swap, FYI... and then to rev it reliably... will also require a build-up of the bottom-end...

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member johnL is on a distinguished road

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    Because I have seen it done. Good enough answer?

    John L.

  7. #7
    gen5
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    First thanks for all the inpput so far, keep it coming.
    If I'm not mistaken, I read somewhere that the 5sfe is a "square" engine and Biscut is talking about making it "over square" which produces more torque right? If this is the case, I don't see how a straight up 3sge would be better. The 5sfe block has more volume than the 3sge so...as the saying now goes "...there is no replacement for displacement." (as far as n/a is concerned)

  8. #8
    Kwanza
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnL
    Because I have seen it done. Good enough answer?
    LOL... not quite. You can claim... but without any backup information... it's not much of a claim. You seem to be completely avoiding giving me a straight answer here. I'm not talking about possibly building up a 5S bottom-end to rev... i'm talking about revving a 5S in stockish trim. There is a MAJOR weak point and that is the rods. The combustion stroke is the most stressful stroke in a 4 stroke cycle. It's a fact that the longer the stroke is, the more force the rods must hold during that stroke (combustion stroke), which creates the low-end torque, but also works as a limiting factor in the revving catergory. Faster revving = more stress especially during that stroke. IMO, it's pushing slightly beyond stock mechanical limits to spin a stock 5S bottom-end to 9K without addressing the rods. On a side note... longer rods can also address the issue...
    Quote Originally Posted by gen5
    First thanks for all the inpput so far, keep it coming.
    If I'm not mistaken, I read somewhere that the 5sfe is a "square" engine and Biscut is talking about making it "over square" which produces more torque right? If this is the case, I don't see how a straight up 3sge would be better. The 5sfe block has more volume than the 3sge so...as the saying now goes "...there is no replacement for displacement." (as far as n/a is concerned)
    The exact opposite actually... the 5S is oversquared... the 3S is squared. More torque doesn't neccesarily mean more horsepower... it's all about where that torque is located and whether or not it can be sustained. The 5S bottom-end pretty much reaches its torque peak at roughly 4500-4800 rpms... after that, it drops of significantly, as much as 30-50 ft lbs to 6k rpms. The 3S on the other hand also peaks its torque at around the same point, but doesn't dip off significantly until as high as 7000 rpms. The torque dips relate directly to stress in the bottom-end. What does this mean? This means although a 5SGE can make more torque, unless it can be built to sustain that torque as high as the 3S block can in stock trim, it won't make as much top-end power when the hp equation is applied, assuming both engines can rev to 7500 rpms or so (fuel cut for the 3SGE). Like I said to John, the weak spot of building an n/a 5S is the rods. Address the rods, and then building a high-powered n/a 5SGE will become more realistic. The other obstacle... pistons. You'll need oversized high-comp 3SGE pistons.

    It is correct, that there is no replacement for displacement... but n/a 4 cylinders are proving to be an exception with modern technology... ;]
    Last edited by Kwanza; 02-27-2005 at 09:34 PM.

  9. #9
    gen5
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    Hmmm, good stuff, thanks. BUT...lol

    My original plan, as is everyones, is to do this on a budget. What first brought this to mind was that nuke and others suggested using a 3sge exhaust manifold since it seems to be a lot better than the 5s. Later that same day, I saw a guy selling a 3sge head on eBay and he said it was a great upgrade for a 5sfe motor. In turn I posted a thread tittled "Is this info correct" to which mike replied yes, in part. The head went for about $100 which got me thinking I can probably get a good 3s top end from one of these redneck yards around here cheaper than I could get a whole running 3sge for. And here we are.

    Lets look at this from a Junkyard Wars point of view. Just swapping stock parts to see what we get. Don't get me wrong, I'm serious about doing this, but i'd rather start this way than diving headlong into a $5000 project. but the reason for all the questions is that I don't want to bother if I'm destined to fail from the offstart. Moving on...

    Will the head bolt right up? Will the stock 5s bottom hold up under normal driving conditions?(i.e. less than 6krpm) How modification of the whole system, would you guess, would need to be done? Which brings me to my next question- If you use the WHOLE 3sge top end, would you need to use the 3sge ECU? If so, then this would require a whole new wiring harness and much splicing, and there goes the budget project.

    Sorry for the long story, thought it all might make more sense to you though in case you're thinkin "this guys a frickin' loon." Or maybe you will more so now that I've said this...

  10. #10
    Kwanza
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    Don't think nothin of what I say bro. If I thought you were a loon... I woulda have said... ;]
    For the most part... the mechanical is not hard to do, nor can I say the wiring is super difficult either... but I'm just saying you know... if you want to do this... do it right the first time so you don't end up disappointed. In all seriousness, a stock 5S bottom-end with a 3SG head will probably leave you disappointed. That said, it is highly reccomended that you do use the 3SGE ecu along with the head and pistons. Since you mention junkyard... that means you'll have to use the 1st gen 3SGE, out of the ST162. Get yourself the head, both manifolds, all sensors, dizzy, coil/ignitor, and complete wiring harness and ECU. From there, you should wire up all of the major sensors that the ECU needs in order to simply work. TPS, CTS, AFM, dizzy, coil/ignitor, knock, O2, etc. Those are the major ones. After that, you disect the looms and mesh them with your dash harness/relays/EFI. That's the basic jist of it... Just take my other info into account. Good luck.

  11. #11

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    Gen5, I'm planning to do basically the exact same thing as you. If fact, already have the head sittin' here waiting. If you're willing to wait up a little while, I could tell you if it's worth it, at least for low end power, which is my end goal.
    She lives!!!

    And now thrives. Took 3 years and an embarrassing amount of money, but tooooooooootally worth it
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  12. #12

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    budget style ? hrm

    i think you may be better off getting a 1 gen 3sge from a junkyard. rebuild it with a 5sfe crank and it's 'weak' rods. Get some 2nd gen 3sge pistons or find some N/A supra (2jzge) pistons (same 3sge 86mm bore) and see what their tops look like ?

    you know possibly have a 2.1 litre, with a 3sge head on it, with a compression ratio that i hope would be close to 10.5:1 (assuming the 3sge and the 2jzge and other toyota G heads share some of the same combustion chamber design).

    Of course i would always recommend 3sgte water and oil pumps for this.
    If you get a 1st gen 3sge head then you have pretty much no cam options to go with...but if you use a head off a 2nd gen (ie mr2/celica...etc) 3sgte then you have future options for putting a Gen 3 intake cam in there or even used aftermarket cams.

    I'm not going to comment on the 5sfe rod strenth or weakness. I understand the entire arguement about piston speed ...etc

    What i would like to say is that 91/92 5sfe's did not have balance shafts ...and supposedly gen 2 5sfe's did.

    I would also like to say that when i took apart the bottom end of my 91, it only had 180* lubrication in the rod bearings. I think if you were to rev a 5sfe i'd go ahead and use two sets of bearings so that you can get 360* lubrication and possibly get some torque back after 4500. (if the torque is falling because of stress, just take away the stress... obviously stress is inherent in the design because of the r/s ratio, but this can be worked around with lightweight rods, and better bearing design (at least i would hope) at least for most street applications <200whp (if we ever hit that number) )

    Again , mike colon (10 second mr2 , 580 rwhp 5sfe) had his 5sfe make peak power at 8600 on the dyno. He had a built bottom end (crower h-beams, je pistons), and a 3sge based engine may have made more up top...but for all streetable , practical applications i think the 5sfe can rev to a 3sge stock redline 7200 with good precautions on stock cams, maybe i'm just optimistic but 7200 really is not that high. just my opinion...

    I have my own take on the 5sfe and on power... but that's my take which i get to try out for myself on my own 5sfe as soon as i get another one.
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  13. #13
    2005 C200 Kompressor sport
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    On the way:HKS FCD's (12psi), Remus testpipe (2ndary cat), vortech 2:1 FMU

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  14. #14
    Kwanza
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuclearhappines
    5sfe stock CR
    [url]
    will a 3sfe head on a 5sfe give a 10:1 CR ?

    -nuke
    Basically the same head (minor variations)... different block. For cheap compression increase... oversized 3SGE pistons will probably knock you up into the 11 range. Comparatively speaking, 8:9:1 4AGZE pistons in a 7AFE brought compression up to the 11 range, so it would probably be similar in the 5S with 3SG pistons.

  15. #15

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    well let me ask you this kwanza...

    if i put flat top , just custom , completely flat top pistons in a 5sfe do you think the piston would hit the valves in normal operation ? are the valve reliefs in the piston top there to make it a non interference or does the piston actually go that high up with the valve is that open to warrant the reliefs ?

    why do i ask ?
    1mzfe 87.5mm pistons in a 5sfe with a stock 5sfe head i would think would bump up compression quite a bit and it's a reasonable overbore on the 5sfe.

    http://www.beckracing.com/slvpg88.htm

    The other lead i think people should follow up on(as far as 5sGe is concerned) is to have some of our UK and JP members try and find toyota part numbers (or equivalents) for 0.040" overbore 3sge pistons from a gen3 or a gen4 (vvti) 3sge giving them 10:1 and 11.5:1 5sge's respectively....with all oem parts ... just as you said, 3s pistons for the 5sge

    there's 2 different applications here...an 10:1-11:1 or so 5sfe, and an all motor 5sge.

    Both interest me, but given that i personally am torn between nitrous (which a 10:1 5sfe is a great candidate for) and an ITB all motor engine (which a 5sge or a destroked 5sge) might be a better candidate for

    I'd like to see both version developed in a quick , off the shelf recipe type of way (just like the b16/b18 itr basic combo's

    I think having an off the shelf setup like this will further the platform alot more than doing it with an aftermarket rebuild.

    My beliefs with the 5sfe (Which is slightly off topic) is that it was always meant to be a FI motor. you can get places with an N/A 5sfe but a 5sge will get you there faster, and i'm sorry to say a 3sge will probably always outperform the 5sfe (assuming you have your redline where you need it) and gearing will easy fix your 10% torque problem (get 10% smaller tires)

    However for street applications (Which is 99% of the people) a good , easy , 11:1 5sfe recipe, with some spray on top of it in something as light as a celica is nothing to sneaze at. well within the capabilities of the redline, the r/s ratio, the poor valve angle (nitrous fixes that problem), all the oversized 4-1 aftermarket headers (nitrous again takes advantage of that problem)...

    I'm a theorist though. Alot more to be done for agood nitrous setup.

    Since the r/s ratio is it is , then a 5sfe will end up losing alot of power if you screw with it's overlap and it's timing .... just a fact based on the piston speed.... (or at least from how i understand it) ... therefore higher lift, close to stock duration cams , coupled with higher cr's is probably the way to go. Cams are expensive, so in effect maybe oversized intake and exhaust valves on the 5sfe on stock cams maybe the best way of doing a street head (so more airflow but stock duration)...and while you're at it we can figure out what the intake / exhaust ratio is on the valves and maybe tweak it as necessary for the power goals or power adder (nitrous). 5sfe has a similar r/s ratio to some big blocks, i think of the 5sfe as a domestic or a mustang motor and the best way to work with it should be nitrous , because wehn your air is compressed all your 'restriction points' relatively get larger. And we know the bottom end is capable of taken power (Alot more than it is capable of accepting high revs).

    and the number one reason the 5sfe doesn't do much with anything is its low CR. So all the other mods are in effect muted.

    these are all my opinion on things... worht nothing but 2c.

    But in essence i believe the 5sfe inside and out is a better FI/nitrous motor than an N/A motor (displacement, torque, spool, low cr, combustion chamber design ( the air gets compressed into the piston rather than into the head... it's hilarious)...so when the air needs to escape the chamber it has to travel all teh way from the bottom of the piston dish out the valves, doesn't seem like a big distance, but try doing this more at higher rpms and i'm sure that distance becomes an issue... ) and it's the opposite of every N/A honda build and apparently the 3sge and 1mzfe head designs as well ... )

    too many things with the 5sfe just don't add up in the way people want them to ...

    sorry for the rant. but yeah oversized 3sge pistons and a 3sge head should be a very straight forward 10:1 2.2litre 5sge.
    2005 C200 Kompressor sport
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  16. #16
    Kwanza
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuclearhappines
    well let me ask you this kwanza...
    if i put flat top , just custom , completely flat top pistons in a 5sfe do you think the piston would hit the valves in normal operation ? are the valve reliefs in the piston top there to make it a non interference or does the piston actually go that high up with the valve is that open to warrant the reliefs ?
    Depends on the piston design, but the flycuts are there to insure non-interference not just during TDC but rather during minor valve float and/or timing belt breakage. Those are what makes or breaks a interference or non-interference engine.
    why do i ask ?
    1mzfe 87.5mm pistons in a 5sfe with a stock 5sfe head i would think would bump up compression quite a bit and it's a reasonable overbore on the 5sfe.

    http://www.beckracing.com/slvpg88.htm
    Regarding this, I can't say whether or not it can or will increase compression, because it heavily depends on the piston design. They are very very similar in size, and even the pin diameters are good for a fit (1mz/5SFE)... but as far as compression goes, it's a toss up. I would guess maybe a decent increase, but not as dramatic as 3SG pistons because these 1MZ pistons were designed for the FE head, which is still designed for velocity rather than greater volume... Based on descriptions of the 1MZ piston top... it "should" increase compression... but you'll have to take the overall piston design into account, cause that guess would assume both pistons mount to the rod in the same place and are the same height...
    The other lead i think people should follow up on(as far as 5sGe is concerned) is to have some of our UK and JP members try and find toyota part numbers (or equivalents) for 0.040" overbore 3sge pistons from a gen3 or a gen4 (vvti) 3sge giving them 10:1 and 11.5:1 5sge's respectively....with all oem parts ... just as you said, 3s pistons for the 5sge
    That is correct. As far as a 5SGE is concerned... there are only two main issues dealing with the actual build, the rod (revving), and the pistons (compression). Whenever an n/a 5SGE is the goal, GE pistons MUST BE USED otherwise compression will suffer. Even with the 1MZ pistons, I feel compression will suffer. You are totally correct about this. As far as piston choices go, I'm not an avid tuner of the S series engines, but I'm positive there are many piston choices out there...
    I'd like to see both version developed in a quick , off the shelf recipe type of way (just like the b16/b18 itr basic combo's

    I think having an off the shelf setup like this will further the platform alot more than doing it with an aftermarket rebuild.
    That would be great... I'd love to see more Toyota n/a tuning and more parts in general... but only a very few focus on real n/a tuning in the Toyota community, especially the newer import crowd. I personally would love to see the knowledge be out there along with simple parts, so Toyota folks can grow beyond tinkering with stock exhaust manifolds and frankenstien intake manifold "ideas"... and really get a good grasp of what n/a tuning is. Engines all work on the same principle... know what creates results instead of just experimenting.
    My beliefs with the 5sfe (Which is slightly off topic) is that it was always meant to be a FI motor. you can get places with an N/A 5sfe but a 5sge will get you there faster, and i'm sorry to say a 3sge will probably always outperform the 5sfe (assuming you have your redline where you need it) and gearing will easy fix your 10% torque problem (get 10% smaller tires)
    I agree with this also... and feel the same way. The 5SFE will always be better for FI and only so-so for n/a build-up. The displacement advantage isn't large enough, IMO, to warrant radical builds... but each to his own. In the long run, a 5SGE can make more potential power, but practicality will still belong to the 3SGE.
    However for street applications (Which is 99% of the people) a good , easy , 11:1 5sfe recipe, with some spray on top of it in something as light as a celica is nothing to sneaze at. well within the capabilities of the redline, the r/s ratio, the poor valve angle (nitrous fixes that problem), all the oversized 4-1 aftermarket headers (nitrous again takes advantage of that problem)...

    I'm a theorist though. Alot more to be done for agood nitrous setup.
    I only have ONE beef with nitrious... it's all for straight line acceleration... ;]
    ...5sfe has a similar r/s ratio to some big blocks, i think of the 5sfe as a domestic or a mustang motor and the best way to work with it should be nitrous , because wehn your air is compressed all your 'restriction points' relatively get larger. And we know the bottom end is capable of taken power (Alot more than it is capable of accepting high revs).
    The 5SFE is designed purely as a low torque engine. It's hard to change those characteristics with n/a tuning. With regard to stroke value... I can only name 3 production engines that can maintain decent torque curves at higher rpms (6500-7000+) with a 89+mm stroke... 2 of which are overbuilt beasts, the other a single cam... all are Honda... H22A, F22C, D16...
    and the number one reason the 5sfe doesn't do much with anything is its low CR. So all the other mods are in effect muted.

    these are all my opinion on things... worht nothing but 2c.

    But in essence i believe the 5sfe inside and out is a better FI/nitrous motor than an N/A motor (displacement, torque, spool, low cr, combustion chamber design ( the air gets compressed into the piston rather than into the head... it's hilarious)...so when the air needs to escape the chamber it has to travel all teh way from the bottom of the piston dish out the valves, doesn't seem like a big distance, but try doing this more at higher rpms and i'm sure that distance becomes an issue... ) and it's the opposite of every N/A honda build and apparently the 3sge and 1mzfe head designs as well ... )

    too many things with the 5sfe just don't add up in the way people want them to ...

    sorry for the rant. but yeah oversized 3sge pistons and a 3sge head should be a very straight forward 10:1 2.2litre 5sge.
    I can't preach it any better than that. The 5SFE is a GREAT engine... but it is only what it is. It does what it's designed to do, and it does GREAT... It's just unfortunate that it happens to be a non-sporty engine, and we Americans got shafted with this engine in a sporty car... but in the long run, the engine is still solid. If you want performance... go for a performance package... cause only so much can be squeezed from the 5SFE. Happy tuning...
    Last edited by Kwanza; 03-05-2005 at 04:27 AM.

  17. #17

    Default

    i'm going to spend some time on camryman.org and see if they can get me cc's for their piston dish...

    i'm only looking for mid 10s : 1 for now

    thanks for the help

    -nuke
    2005 C200 Kompressor sport
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  18. #18

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    here's an example of why i believe the limiting factor on the 5sfe (and most small block chevy's) is not the rod/stroke ratio

    249 wheel hp, 170ft-lbs of torque, peak torque around 7200/7300rpm ... but stays over the 150 mark for a while.

    http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1141433&page=1
    2005 C200 Kompressor sport
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  19. #19

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    nuke, add www.vwvortex.com to that list
    Sorry, no picture currently available. Too many users can't take graphic humor.

  20. #20

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    never been there, adding
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  21. #21

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    hhmmm.....ok. heres the deal. i am new to this forum. i am not a celica owner. i drive a mr2. i came here to look up info on the 1st gen 3sge that are in ya'll celicas. i came across this and thought i would help out.

    EnDlesS_PeRfOrMaNc once wrote this:
    "This is an easy one, the block of a 3S-GE is the same as a 5S thats why they are bothe S engines. They share the same except the slight more bore and stroke made by the crank on a 5S to make the 2.2 litewrs versus the shorter stroke on the 3S thus 2 make onlee 2 liters. the GE head would no problem fit on the 5S block, hey they even use the same head gasket kits cause all the gaskets are the same , from the head gasket, intake manifold gasket ect.Altho , the bearing caps may be slightly stronger on a 3S but i dont really think so tho.3S and 5S use same block designs outer and inner except sligh displacment difrance,they use the same oil, water pump,even lower timing cover. computers are easyly exchangebale and other compponents.Altho i hab done the 5S engine wif the GE headmaking it a 5S-GE cause i wanted the displacment and it worked greak, altho i had to rewerk my ecu to bring up my redline ect.GE heads are good for high reving and and the slightly larger intake valves being more space with the larger cam space, FE heads are good doch heads for low end torque and fuel efficiency.Thats why i went all out with a 5VZ-FE(4Runner V6)based of the 3Vz that powerd the 92-93 Camry and 88 up 4Runner. Buth using the rewerked 3VZ computer, high compression and dual exhaust and large external coil,(advantage of distibutered engine.

    91-94 5s-fe will accept the 3s-ge head with minor hardware mods, but requires the 3s-ge electronics...

    95 to 96 5s-fe will require major modifications to the short block as in the oil and water passeages needs to be ported to accept the 3s-ge ...

    the 3S and 5S blocks are indentical except for engine bore.Some 95-96 models also hab a balancer in the oil pan that rides on the crank, not to be worried about tho.Also if yur look for boost in oil pressure by about 5-15 lbs over stock, there are spring kits that are designs for boosting oil pressure in yur engine over stock pressure, without removing the oil pump from the body of the engine.When swap the GE head on the 5S use a 3S-GE head set, for use of the head gasket and intake gasket, depending which year GE head yur using, and the valve cover gasket."

    also, check this link out--> http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=864

    tells you all you need to know about mating the 3s gte/ge head on the 5sfe WHICH is the way to go. with the new crank and head, you will have good torque AND good high end. the head of the second gen 3sge and up bolt right on. however, you need to know which 5sfe bottom you have. in that i mean which year because the early year mr2 blocks didnt have the oil passages drilled in them that the 93 up's did. to fix this, we get a 3sge head gasket, and lie it on the clock, and mark holes and slowly and carefully (duh) drill them. if you are sticking with NA, do the swap with a ge head, if turbo do the swap with gte head. there is a difference in the heads, altough not much except better flow. nothing that a machine swap shouldnt be able to fix. either way do the swap. make sure you get all the wiring, ecu, etc. from the head you are going to use.

    also, as far as the exhaust manifolds go. (i think someone asked about it), i am pretty sure, not positive that the manifold will fit on the 5sfe head, so i would assume that the 5sfe one will fit on the 3sge. cant be for sure if that includes a certain gen or not.

    anything else? let me know.
    also....anyone know where to get some good info on the 1st gen 3sge?

  22. #22

    Lightbulb My plan...

    I have read most of this post and need help on a decision with my engine. Last week I was driving my stock ex. intake 93 GTS w/original 5sfe engine in it, and the timing belt jumped. I am suspecting. The belt was replaced with 56000 on it and it has 115000 now! Ya, I should have replaced it in the first place, but... I heard a lousd ping then it sounded like metal falling and the car died. The RPM's were at about 5g. I looked at the timing belt and it is all dry rotted and looked like it was half off the cam gear. So this weekend I am going to take the head off and see what I fucked up in there. My main ? is would it be economical, providing i have to do a head job to simply put a ge head on it? What head would I need and what other misc. parts ie. timing belt gasket. And the compression problem solved? I am going to Afganistan in April and was planning on putting a 3sgte in it when i got back. Just wanting some info and oponions on what the best decision would be. Let it sit or fix it either fe head or ge... Thankz

  23. #23
    Kwanza
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by james1435
    I have read most of this post and need help on a decision with my engine. Last week I was driving my stock ex. intake 93 GTS w/original 5sfe engine in it, and the timing belt jumped. I am suspecting. The belt was replaced with 56000 on it and it has 115000 now! Ya, I should have replaced it in the first place, but... I heard a lousd ping then it sounded like metal falling and the car died. The RPM's were at about 5g. I looked at the timing belt and it is all dry rotted and looked like it was half off the cam gear. So this weekend I am going to take the head off and see what I fucked up in there. My main ? is would it be economical, providing i have to do a head job to simply put a ge head on it? What head would I need and what other misc. parts ie. timing belt gasket. And the compression problem solved? I am going to Afganistan in April and was planning on putting a 3sgte in it when i got back. Just wanting some info and oponions on what the best decision would be. Let it sit or fix it either fe head or ge... Thankz
    Read this topic again. All of what you asked was answered here...

  24. #24

    Default

    if you read the above, John mentioned a 5s spinning to 9k. The reason he said that is because a friend of ours, ryan, had a 3sgte with a 5s crank in it. As long as it has/had enough oil pressure, it was/is fine. BTW, john drove the car himself.

    So his claims are accurate.

    But, the engine is running insane boost. I am in agreement that the 5s rod ratio is quite short. I have said it in the past, its a truck engine.

    That said, there is a thread I started a few months back about this topic. The debate was whether the passages on the head line up. They do. Then it was the piston/valve clearance. I think they clear, but I don't think you will have a non interference engine any longer.

    So do it, and let us know how it goes
    Jeff


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  25. #25
    Kwanza
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmleff
    if you read the above, John mentioned a 5s spinning to 9k. The reason he said that is because a friend of ours, ryan, had a 3sgte with a 5s crank in it. As long as it has/had enough oil pressure, it was/is fine. BTW, john drove the car himself.

    So his claims are accurate.
    That wasn't his claim... or if it was... he wasn't being very clear. The crank alone doesn't affect an engine's ability to rev. It's the entire design (in this specific case... 5S bottom end). It doesn't matter to me now though... but it's funny you'd bring that up again. Piston speed can hurt. I may have mentioned before... but how often do you hear of the crank failing? It's usually everything else that goes...

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