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  1. #1

    Post Tech Discussion-Throttle Bodies

    A new topic to discuss.

    An engine can be defined as an air pump. That is, it moves or pumps air, starting at the air inlet to the air filter and basically ending at the tail pipes. The more air that can be moved through the engine, the more horsepower potential it will have. Everything that can be done to an engine to increase horsepower (other than strengthening the rotating components on a race engine) is related to moving additional quantities of air. This includes adding larger flowing cylinder heads with larger valves, cylinder head porting, higher lift camshafts, more efficient intake manifolds, higher flowing exhaust systems (you can’t get more air in unless you get the old exhaust out), and………a larger throttle body (or carburetor if the engine is non fuel injected).

    Additional ways to move greater quantities of air may also include using a larger displacement engine or increasing the displacement of the existing engine (boring and stroking). Bigger engines can move more air than smaller engines.

    Or, if adding displacement is not feasible, spinning the engine to a higher RPM can increase airflow.

    The term most used to measure the quantity of air moving through an engine or through it’s independent components, is CFM, or Cubic Feet per Minute.

    We used the term “horsepower potential” above. That is because there is one other element that is connected with increased CFM when discussing horsepower, and that is gasoline. If you recall from your high school physics class, “fuel” is actually made up of approximately one part gasoline to ten to twelve parts of air. To increase horsepower significantly, the engine must burn additional fuel, and because the primary ingredient in fuel is air, we need to figure out how to move more air through the engine.

    Is this all starting to make sense?

    In the “old” days when everybody relied on carburetors, installing a larger carburetor increased the CFM. Installing a larger CFM carburetor also required an increase in the gasoline supply. This was usually done by changing to larger jet sizes.

    Today, things are a lot easier. With electronic fuel injection, the on-board computer or “fuel management processor” handles this for us, and much more efficiently than was ever possible with a carburetor. For instance, all electronic fuel injection (EFI) engines have a series of sensors that notify the computer as to what is happening inside the engine. There are specific sensors that notify the computer if the engine is running too rich or too lean. With this information, the computer controls the amount of gasoline injected into the engine in order to maintain the correct air to gasoline ratio (not too rich, not too lean) in a real time atmosphere.

    So, if we add additional airflow potential to our engine in the form of a larger throttle body, the sensors will notify the computer of the increased CFM and the computer will then add additional gasoline into the engine. Simple, eh?

    In a high performance street type application with an EFI vehicle, there is generally little reason to modify the gasoline side of the “fuel” equation. The stock computer will, in most cases, handle this for us. Most OEM computer systems, fuel injectors, fuel pumps and fuel pressure regulators can handle greater horsepower potential than the stock engine produced.

    The throttle body is the “door” that the air needs to get through before it can get into the engine. Any air restriction at the throttle body will invalidate almost anything else that you can do to increase CFM. No additional airflow; no additional horsepower, it’s that simple.
    -----

    There seem to be several options for upgrading this all important piece on many engines. Most of the info here may be focused on the 5sfe but feel free to ask about others. We have seen that the 5sfe can be bored out to some extent, others have worked on using a tb from a mustang. I have been hunting down a tb from a 1mzfe (Toyota V6) after seeing one and I believe it may even be a bolt on as the the 3sge tb can be used on the 1mzfe intake. Here are some comparison photos from another thread of the 1mzfe and 3sge. The bore size at the blade of the 3S-GE is 2.165" and on the V6, it is 2.360", .195" larger.




    Have at it!
    Last edited by grayscale; 01-19-2008 at 05:31 AM.

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  2. #2

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    i like the 75mm mustang 5.0 tb i'll be using

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  3. #3

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    your whole car will last longer than that ford TB... wait.. i just bought a mazda... SHIT!

    haha

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  4. #4
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    I think by and large a larger throttle body shouldn't be a big concern. Usually your cams will be a bigger restriction than your throttle body.

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
    Joey wins this thread.

  5. #5
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    I'm clueless.
    Last edited by grayscale; 01-18-2008 at 11:01 AM.
    2012 Jeep Wrangler
    1993 Mr2 Turbo

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    Originally Posted by vangls14
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    just because you want to be "different". Why not just take that mentality a couple steps forward and get yourself a Pontiac Aztek?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by KoreanJoey
    I think by and large a larger throttle body shouldn't be a big concern. Usually your cams will be a bigger restriction than your throttle body.
    True, but we're not talking about big concerns here, we talk about details in tech discussions. Cams were covered in the head building discussion.

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  7. #7
    I'll be the little spoon KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey's Avatar
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    Well I'd say as long as you don't get too out of hand and you're able to get the throttle body size relative to the intake plenum it should work awesome.

    What exactly are we discussing? I've got access to a 1MZ throttle if you'd like me to measure it...

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
    Joey wins this thread.

  8. #8

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    That's a 1mz at the top of the page with measurements, but if you would like to donate one for a reasonable price for experimentation and progress that would be great.

    In tech discussions we go over the benefits of the part[s] in question and theory behind them and then discuss different options and other info.

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  9. #9

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    When it comes to TB's... there is much left to be desired by the 5S-FE factory unit. I have run the 7M-GTE on my car... how about this, I will post my modifications in another thread so as not to highjack, but I will link it. NOTE (I made 130whp and 148wtq with all factory internals and no cam adjustment)

    THe 7M-GTE TB was wonderful! Responce was instant, no problems breathing up top. The only issue we have is that the manifold needs to be bored out to make room for the larger outlet. There is a very small limit for this.

    I will offer the following, fast and quality turn arounds. If you send me a gasket of your TB, and tell me what year your intake manifold is I will modify one to fit your application. Now to note, there are 4 versions of the 5S-FE inatake manifold. I can get ahold of 3 easily. The 4th most of you probably haven't even seen, so no worries.

    On to sizing. Theory states, the fastest any fluid can move through any given cross sectional area is mach 1, period, end of story. Here is why, fluid moves by pressure differential and pressure moves at the speed of sound. Pressure can not move faster than the speed of sound, because sound is a pressure wave. That being said, how much speed does one need for a give application..... more theory.

    Butterfly valves are a special kind of valve when it comes to mas flow through the valve. When a butterfly valve is open to about 65%, full flow is ~acheived (IF THE VALVE IS PROPERLY SIZED). It might not be laminar but still minimal differences from 65% open to %100 open. Some of you might say, well I feel a significant difference from 2/3 throttle to 100% throttle. What I haven't explained yet is why, the throttle body is too small and it is choking the engine. The turbulant air that occurs around 65% is causing a pressure drop and the valve is not properly efficient.

    Stock TB exit for the 5S-FE from 1990 to 1999 is 52mm. Measure it if you like, the inlet is larger, but the exit is the minimal cross section, if you don't include the valve and plate (they exist in 99.99% of throttle bodies in existance so we neglect it for now as we are not a F1 team).

    I suggest some diameter from 60mm to 65mm maybe 67mm. Much past this the responce is too great and the flow needed from the engine will be met by 50% throttle so 50-100% will be pointless for average 5S-FE N/A cars.

    For those of you who want #'s... Here they are in CFM as calculated by DynomationPro. Notice the huge jump when the stock engine feels like it hits a wall.

    RPM - Stock TB - ~60mm - difference
    1000 - 23.7 - 23.7 - +0.0
    1500 - 39.4 - 39.6 - +0.2
    2000 - 56.6 - 57.0 - +0.3
    2500 - 72.3 - 73.2 - +0.9
    3000 - 90.5 - 92.3 - +1.8
    3500 - 109.6 - 112.6 - +3.0
    4000 - 126.9 - 131.5 - +4.6
    4500 - 149.1 - 152.1 - +3.0
    5000 - 166.9 - 171.0 - +4.1
    5500 - 169.0 - 190.1 - +21.1
    6000 - 158.9 - 218.6 - +59.7
    6500 - 149.4 - 214.6 - +65.2

    Nate

  10. #10

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    What size is the 7mgte? Did it mount right up or did you have to modify it to fit? Get us some pics if you have a chance.

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  11. #11

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    I had to make a set of conversion plates because when I did it I didn't have a TIG at my disposal, now I do. I will measure tonight and repost.

    Nate

  12. #12

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    1mzfe engines can be found in the following vehicles, maybe more-
    1995 - 1999 Toyota Avalon XL/XLS (Engine: 1MZFE)
    2000 - 2005 Toyota Avalon XL/XLS (Engine: 1MZFE)
    1994 - 1996 Toyota Camry V6 Japan Sedan (Engine: 1MZFE)
    1994 - 1996 Toyota Camry V6 USA Sedan (Engine: 1MZFE)
    1994 - 1996 Toyota Camry V6 2 Door (Engine: 1MZFE)
    1994 - 1996 Toyota Camry V6 Wagon USA (Engine: 1MZFE)
    1997 - 2001 Toyota Camry V6 Japan Sedan (Engine: 1MZFE)
    1997 - 2001 Toyota Camry V6 USA Sedan (Engine: 1MZFE)
    2002 - 2005 Toyota Camry V6 Japan Sedan (Engine: 1MZFE)
    2002 - 2005 Toyota Camry V6 USA Sedan (Engine: 1MZFE)
    2001 - 2003 Toyota Highlander 2WD V6 (Engine: 1MZFE)
    2001 - 2003 Toyota Highlander 4WD V6 (Engine: 1MZFE)
    1998 - 2003 Toyota Sienna (Engine: 1MZFE)
    1999 - 2003 Toyota Solara V6 Hardtop (Engine: 1MZFE)
    2000 - 2003 Toyota Solara V6 Ragtop (Engine: 1MZFE)

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  13. #13
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    Oh man I can't remember the size of my throttle body... have that handy?

    Gen 3 3SGE?

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
    Joey wins this thread.

  14. #14

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    Ooo, good call Joey, I forgot the 3rd gen was larger @ 60mm, supposedly similar to the 7mgte. Have you ever compared yours to a 5sfe? I wonder if the tps is the same? But alas, there are not a whole crap load of these hanging around so back to the drawing board.

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  15. #15

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    I have one of those too, Rev. 3 3S-GTE TB. I'll get it out of storage. Forgot to measue, I'll do that in the morning.

    Nate

  16. #16

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    Damn Nate, got any you'd like to donate?

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  17. #17

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    Hey, this is nifty stuff. Would the 1MZFE TB work on a 7AFE? I don't know how different the intake is on a 7A from a 5A.

  18. #18
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    good stuff Cannon. i know you have been heavily researching TB's for a while now.

    Nate, how much wider can the stock 5s TB be bored to? can you also give me the cfm improvements for that bore?

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  19. #19

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    Crap, I don't remember exactly what it was but I remember Hooligan doing it and it wasn't enough for me to waste my time on it.

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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by 94CelicaGirl
    Hey, this is nifty stuff. Would the 1MZFE TB work on a 7AFE? I don't know how different the intake is on a 7A from a 5A.
    I have a 7a outside but I've never taken a close look. I'll check it out this weekend for you. I do know the 7afe has the strangest intake manifold I've ever seen.

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  21. #21

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    Rev 2 5sfe TB on the left and gen 3 3sgte TB on the right:



    The gen 3 3sgte TB is indeed 60mm and I believe so is the BEAMS. That is just about perfect for a higher revving 5sfe by my calculations. Also the IAC is the same and it looks like the TPS may also be the same.

  22. #22
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    i imagine the 3s TB is probably gonna be hard to get ahold of.

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  23. #23

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    Looks like the throttle cable and tps are on oppostite sides. Do you have a larger size pic I can look at?

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  24. #24
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    This is good stuff. So if i updated my TB to a 3sgte TB what am I looking at performance wise?

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    She's sold
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    !


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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by grayscale
    Looks like the throttle cable and tps are on oppostite sides. Do you have a larger size pic I can look at?
    Sorry, I don't have a larger pic at the moment but you are looking at them in the same orientation. The 3sgte TB requires an inlet to be bolted to it. The wires will reach pretty easily as you can see from the pic and the coolant and vacuum hoses may need to be different sizes and/or lengthened but no big deal. The throttle cable comes from the opposite direction so a longer throttle cable with a new mount could be made but it might be tricky. I am going to try to flip it so it pulls from the bottom using my 5s cable.

    Quote Originally Posted by extremeskillz
    This is good stuff. So if i updated my TB to a 3sgte TB what am I looking at performance wise?
    The TB all by itself will give a little more top end but I doubt it'll be a lot without also installing a new manifold. I'm not even sure you could open the 5sfe manifold up to 60mm but if you did it should help a little in the upper RPMs. If you really want to see some gains you need a shorter runner manifold with larger diameter runners to go with it. And then if you want to perfect it you need to size everything from the intake valve to the intake for higher RPMs.

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