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  1. #51

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    does anybody make itbs for the 5sfe or any other engine that i can make work for the 5sfe?
    2001 lexus is300 (building now)
    1990 celica gts red (up in flames)
    1992 celica gts maroon (sold)
    1990 celica gts blue (crushed)
    1991 celica st black (sold)
    1989 celica gt white (up in flames)

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by celica1990gts
    does anybody make itbs for the 5sfe or any other engine that i can make work for the 5sfe?

    I have seen Itbs for 3sge beams motors overseas but tuning it and making it work properly would be such a pain. But I have not seen any for a 5sfe.
    2012 Jeep Wrangler
    1993 Mr2 Turbo

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    just because you want to be "different". Why not just take that mentality a couple steps forward and get yourself a Pontiac Aztek?

  3. #53

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    Good information. I really like that people are trying to get more power out the 5sfe instead of always resorting to swaps. The 5sfe is a great motor but it was designed to give low and midrange power. So the valves, ports, intake manifold and cams were all designed with that in mind. This motor has a lot of potential though. I disagree that the ports are too big for the stock setup but I can understand if someone thinks differently. I believe the Toyota engineers knew exactly what they were doing when they were building this motor and everything I have seen confirms that. So I don't buy into the idea that any of the parts were poorly designed. They were simply designed for a specific purpose that wasn't necessarily top end power.

    Just to clearify a couple of things:

    The exhaust cam turns in the opposite direction as the intake cam so when the intake cam is advanced using an adjustable cam gear the exhaust cam is also advanced the same amount.

    On an NA, adjustable cam gears don't buy you as much as they do on turbo cars. You have to realize that most after market cams are actually NA cams so the adjustable cam gears allow turbo owners to use them to reduce overlap and spool the turbo faster. You can still use them to move power up and down the rev range a little though on an NA and tweak a couple of more HP out of it. Also if you shave the head you can use one to get your cam timing back where it should be because shaving the head shortens the distance between the gears on the timing belt.

    Rev 2 cams cannot be used in rev 1 engine without grinding them to a new profile. The base circle in a rev 2 is 1.3" and rev 1 is 1.1". What that means though is if you have a rev 1 you can use rev 2 cams (5sfe or 3sfe) as a core to have some really aggressive cams ground from them and still use stock shims. Also the increase lift on the rev 2 stock cams is offset by the longer duration on the stock rev 1 cams. They are pretty comparable when all is said and done so I wouldn't call one of them an upgrade over the other.

    Rev 1 5sfes can use 3sgte valves and springs but rev 2 5sfes will use 2jzgte valves and springs because of the difference in valve stem length and bucket size. You could theoretically use 3sgte valves in a rev 2 if your cams were ground so had a smaller base circle and then you could still use the stock sized shims. I think the difference is 1- 2mm. You would probably need to upgrade springs though because they wouldn't be as compressed and would give a lower seat pressure.

    If you install oversized valves it is a good idea to also get larger seats although with 1mm oversized you can use the existing ones. With 2mm oversized you need new seats and you should also deshroud the valve in the combustion chamber. Lastly you should widen the port to match the increase in valve area. You can usually use the 3rd cut in the 3 angle valve job as a reference of how wide it needs to be and just carry that out past the valve guide. I have read that the area in the port should be about 80% the area of the two valves and then from there you want a 1-2% taper all the way up the intake manifold. Oversized valves work like bigger intake runners in that the bigger you go the more they favor the upper RPMs at the expense of the lower ones. That being said you can still make power in the upper rpms with stock sized valves if you have the right other mods because the effects are additive.

    The deck height on a 5sfe is close to 0 although it will vary a little from cylinder to cylinder and engine to engine. Mine was 0.005-0.010" on my 93 before it was rebuilt. Shaving the head does not effect the deck height which is the measurement of how close the piston comes to the top of the block. If the block has been decked then it may even be positive but it's usually nothing to worry about because the head gasket is thick enough to keep them from getting too close.

    ARP head studs for the 3sgte fit the 5sfe but you will have to shorten two of them under the scissor gears to clear. Also ARP 3sgte main studs work but two of them also need to be shortened to clear the oil pan by the flywheel.
    Last edited by MrTurrari; 05-21-2008 at 10:27 PM.

  4. #54

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    i was wondering if i can use another larger tb or if anybody can bore it out.
    im doing a 5s build currently and im trying to squeeze as much hp i possibly can.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenmachine87
    i was wondering if i can use another larger tb or if anybody can bore it out.
    im doing a 5s build currently and im trying to squeeze as much hp i possibly can.
    What size is the 5s one? I believe the V6 TB's are similar to the 5s ones...i think it was someone on this board that actually mentioned that, sorry i forgot who it was.
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  6. #56

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    I'm going to redirect this thread to a new one that I will sticky -TB Tech Discussion . We seem to have a lot of info we can get here from people like Weasy and MrTurarri and I want to spread it out and make it easier to find.

    BTW- MrTurarri, do you have a Ferarri body kit on your MR2?

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  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by grayscale
    I'm going to redirect this thread to a new one that I will sticky -TB Tech Discussion . We seem to have a lot of info we can get here from people like Weasy and MrTurarri and I want to spread it out and make it easier to find.

    BTW- MrTurarri, do you have a Ferarri body kit on your MR2?
    Nope... don't get me wrong I like Farraris but an MR2 is it's own animal. I have a customized Border front, Tom's sides and Veilside rear.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weasy2k
    What size is the 5s one? I believe the V6 TB's are similar to the 5s ones...i think it was someone on this board that actually mentioned that, sorry i forgot who it was.
    I believe the 5s TB is 50mm or maybe a hair bigger. For the stock torque curve that is as big as it needs to be but if you want to make power up around 6000-7000rpms you should look at a 60mm and if you want power at 8000rpms you will want even bigger. I have read that you want the area minus the butterfly to be such that air at your max RPM is going 180fps. The same goes for the diameter of your intake ram pipe. There's some good reading about it at www.grapeaperacing.com under tech articles and induction systems. I don't know how accurate this information is but it seems reasonable and is a good place to start.

  9. #59

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    do the rev 2 camshafts fit the rev 1 head?
    also, after shaving head and raising CR to 10.5:1, can the oem 5s ecu compensate for the compression raise?
    i will eventually use a greddy emanage but will i be okay if i chose this route?

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    do the rev 2 camshafts fit the rev 1 head?
    Quote Originally Posted by MrTurrari
    Rev 2 cams cannot be used in rev 1 engine without grinding them to a new profile. The base circle in a rev 2 is 1.3" and rev 1 is 1.1". What that means though is if you have a rev 1 you can use rev 2 cams (5sfe or 3sfe) as a core to have some really aggressive cams ground from them and still use stock shims.
    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    also, after shaving head and raising CR to 10.5:1, can the oem 5s ecu compensate for the compression raise?
    Raising compression extracts more power from the fuel and air that is already going through the engine so the short answer is, it doesn't really need to in order to work. You may have to use higher octane fuel though unless you have a way to adjust timing.

    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    i will eventually use a greddy emanage but will i be okay if i chose this route?
    People have done it before. Raising CR is one way of getting a moderate torque increase. You will make more power though if you use higher compression in combination with longer duration cams. That's where a higher CR should really be used, to maximize the gains from higher duration cams.
    Last edited by MrTurrari; 02-24-2008 at 08:33 AM.

  11. #61

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    im doing a 5s head build for my 92. i want oversized valves for it. which should i order, the 3SGTE or the 2JZGTE valves? 1992 is a rev2, correct?
    custom short ram intake
    54mm throttle body
    TB coolant bypass
    STI 8mm wires
    NGK plugs
    advanced timing
    ebay header
    no cat
    lowered 1.5" (eibach sportlines)
    KYB GR2 shocks/struts

    cylinder head progress:
    1.disassembled and cleaned
    2.milled .050"
    3.valve guides ground flush.
    4.intake diverters knife-edged.
    5.ported and polished
    6.3 angle valve job
    coming: acid ported intake manifold. cams eventually.
    _____________________________________________
    If You're Not Living On The Edge, You're Taking Up Too Much Space!

  12. #62

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    i believe a 92 is a rev one. thats how it is on mr2s

  13. #63

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    If the coil is in the distributor then you have a rev2. Look for 5 spark plug wires on a rev1 or 4 on a rev2. The rev1 also has round spark plug covers and a cold start injector. The rev2 has square ones and a PCV valve. Both engines were sold in 92 and I don't know when they switched for different cars.

  14. #64

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    alright i have an internal coil so its a rev2. so which valves should i order, the 3SGTE or the 2JZGTE valves?
    custom short ram intake
    54mm throttle body
    TB coolant bypass
    STI 8mm wires
    NGK plugs
    advanced timing
    ebay header
    no cat
    lowered 1.5" (eibach sportlines)
    KYB GR2 shocks/struts

    cylinder head progress:
    1.disassembled and cleaned
    2.milled .050"
    3.valve guides ground flush.
    4.intake diverters knife-edged.
    5.ported and polished
    6.3 angle valve job
    coming: acid ported intake manifold. cams eventually.
    _____________________________________________
    If You're Not Living On The Edge, You're Taking Up Too Much Space!

  15. #65

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    i am beginning to build my 5sfe for my mr2. i just purchased a rev1 5s motor to build on the side to rebuild and upgrade while the one i am using is slowly dying.

    the only think i plan are custom camshafts from delta cams, valves and springs from a 3s which i already ordered, mill the head, metal head gasket, and ITB's which are done however they are out of state and i cant get them until the summer.

    do the 3s valve springs fit in with no problem with the 3s valves? also, how much should i expect to pay to have the reground done to have the valves fit the head. is it the head or is it the valve that is being reground? i am not planning on port and polishing my head or having a valve job.

    how much should i expect to pay to get the head milled?
    do i have to rebuild the head at the same time?

    also, when i get my camshafts made, what measurements should i request for without having to go EMS. i will run greddy emanage in the future.
    Last edited by thaivietg714; 03-06-2008 at 01:42 AM.

  16. #66

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    getting the head milled.. should be cheap. only takes an hour to do, maximum. if your head is off, you should definately throw some new valve seals in it. to fit the 3sgte valves in your head the valve seats have to be reground. if you dont want to do a valve job (which i would sugguest you do while its out) then the valves do not have to be cut. if you did want to go with a 3 angle job, the seats have to be ground a specific way, and you have to have the valves cut to match the angles. now ive been meaning to ask this for a while. what exactly is an ITB?
    custom short ram intake
    54mm throttle body
    TB coolant bypass
    STI 8mm wires
    NGK plugs
    advanced timing
    ebay header
    no cat
    lowered 1.5" (eibach sportlines)
    KYB GR2 shocks/struts

    cylinder head progress:
    1.disassembled and cleaned
    2.milled .050"
    3.valve guides ground flush.
    4.intake diverters knife-edged.
    5.ported and polished
    6.3 angle valve job
    coming: acid ported intake manifold. cams eventually.
    _____________________________________________
    If You're Not Living On The Edge, You're Taking Up Too Much Space!

  17. #67

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    Independent Throttle Body
    "The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."
    Michel Foucault

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    also, how much should i expect to pay to have the reground done to have the valves fit the head. is it the head or is it the valve that is being reground? i am not planning on port and polishing my head or having a valve job.
    You will need a valve job with any valve replacement. They have to cut the seats and the head to open up the area under the valve and make it flow more. No use in putting a bigger door in if your doorway isn't bigger too. They will then lap the valves to make them seal. In my opinion, you should also at the very least remove any casting marks and blend the final angle into the casting of the port for smoother flow. The 3rd angle cut leaves a step even from the factory. You can remove this yourself with a dremel or a die grinder just be careful not to touch the seat or the valve guide. It has to be done after the 3 angle and lap but before final assembly so the valves are not in your way and you can clean out all the shavings. The valves must go back in the same ports they came from after they are lapped so make sure they are labeled. The valve job by itself will probably cost you $160ish. Any other work they do such as cleaning up the ports or assembly will probably cost you extra.

    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    how much should i expect to pay to get the head milled?
    $40-80 for the shave itself depending on the finish.
    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    do i have to rebuild the head at the same time?
    It can be done without rebuilding it but usually they will want to hot tank the head first. Since you are installing 1mm over sized valves you will be rebuilding it anyway. Might as well do it together to save time and money.

    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    do the 3s valve springs fit in with no problem with the 3s valves?
    The only thing that might have to be done to make the 3s springs fit is the perches might need to be widened at the bottom. The reason is that the 3s springs are probably a little thicker then the 5s ones. I was also able to use my 5s spring retainers so I imagine you would be able to do that with the 3s ones too.

    Best advice is to find a machine shop you can trust and take everything in to them. They can measure it all and tell you what needs to be done. Also ask them for the spring install height and coil bind so you can figure out how much lift you can go with for your cams later.

    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    also, when i get my camshafts made, what measurements should i request for without having to go EMS. i will run greddy emanage in the future.
    My cams, Webcam 763, are a 264 AD (measured at 0.010") with 0.350" lift and at 700rpm idle the 93 ECU freaks a little. Nothing major but the A/F ratios swing further then they normally would and it lopes a little. You could probably go as high as 272 and just raise your idle a bit to make them work but they would also move more of your torque past your stock red line. You will need larger injectors for sure with anything 264 and above or high lift cams. It's also a good idea with a rev1 to get a piggy back that also does timing when you use larger injectors like a SMT6, SMT7 or Emanage Ultimate. Then you can get on a dyno and dial it in for best, safest power.

  19. #69

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    MrTurrari, I keep seeing the Greddy EManage Ultimate being tossed around, and I've seen reasonable prices for it. Is this "good enough," or would you recommend just spending the extra money for a "full" stand-alone management system?
    "The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."
    Michel Foucault

  20. #70

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    how much total do you think i would be spending for the head work guys?

  21. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by hemlocke
    MrTurrari, I keep seeing the Greddy EManage Ultimate being tossed around, and I've seen reasonable prices for it. Is this "good enough," or would you recommend just spending the extra money for a "full" stand-alone management system?
    An EMS is always going to be superior especially in the hands of a good tuner but an SMT6 or Emanage Ultimate is good enough for most and cheaper. If you don't plan to raise the stock red line or run lots of boost then it can be made to work pretty well. I would also bet you can get a SMT6 for much less then the Greddy, Weasy2k is a Perfect Power dealer but he has to have a minimum order. If you guys wanted to arrange a group buy he could probably get you a very good price.

  22. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by thaivietg714
    how much total do you think i would be spending for the head work guys?
    It's hard to say because different shops have different prices and some are more meticulous about their work. I would guess though that a hot tank, 3 angle valve job, shaving the head, misc machine work for fitting the springs and assembly will cost you anywhere from $300-400. That is assuming no guides or seats need to be replaced and you have all the parts like seals, retainers, keepers, valves and springs. Still just a guess though.

  23. #73
    Junior Member revv_head is on a distinguished road revv_head's Avatar

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    hookecho just out of interest how many HP are you running? Pref at the flywheel so i can compare to my 101kw.
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  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrTurrari
    An EMS is always going to be superior especially in the hands of a good tuner but an SMT6 or Emanage Ultimate is good enough for most and cheaper. If you don't plan to raise the stock red line or run lots of boost then it can be made to work pretty well. I would also bet you can get a SMT6 for much less then the Greddy, Weasy2k is a Perfect Power dealer but he has to have a minimum order. If you guys wanted to arrange a group buy he could probably get you a very good price.

    Yeah, no boost, because I am only thinking about an NA build, nor am I too interested in making power in the 2ZZ-FE stratosphere.
    "The strategic adversary is fascism... the fascism in us all, in our heads and in our everyday behavior, the fascism that causes us to love power, to desire the very thing that dominates and exploits us."
    Michel Foucault

  25. #75

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    i just got my cylinder head back from the machine shop yesterday. they said on the final pass the end mill started chattering and left a crappy finish, so they made another pass to clean it up. he told me he took off about .050". what would that bring my compression up to, about 10.8:1? also, i was planning on getting cams further down the road (once i get the money). whats the maximum lift i can have with the milled head before worrying about clearance issues?
    custom short ram intake
    54mm throttle body
    TB coolant bypass
    STI 8mm wires
    NGK plugs
    advanced timing
    ebay header
    no cat
    lowered 1.5" (eibach sportlines)
    KYB GR2 shocks/struts

    cylinder head progress:
    1.disassembled and cleaned
    2.milled .050"
    3.valve guides ground flush.
    4.intake diverters knife-edged.
    5.ported and polished
    6.3 angle valve job
    coming: acid ported intake manifold. cams eventually.
    _____________________________________________
    If You're Not Living On The Edge, You're Taking Up Too Much Space!

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