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  1. #1
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    Default Theory/Tech Discussion for 5sfe Head Build

    this will be the first of several discussions regarding theories and build discussions for N/A engines. we will come up with a topic, such as fuel management, engine management, motor builds, intake, exhaust, every couple weeks that we will actively discuss to length. the idea is to build up an information center here in N/A for everyone to reference. c-tech is well known for it's plethora of info regarding swaps and FI. the idea is to harbor the same amount of info for us N/A guys so that we don't have to look elsewhere for it and it is easy to find.

    if any member has an idea they would like see discussed you are more than welcome to pitch it to myself or Grayscale. there will be a zero tolerance for flaming. this will be a learning experience for everyone including myself.
    Last edited by hookecho; 12-02-2007 at 07:47 PM.

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  2. #2
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    the 5sfe has 2 generations of heads. 90-92 and 93 and up. the difference in the 2 designs is that the 2nd gen head has more narrow water jackets and the ports are smaller. this is the reason for the use of two different size valves from the rev1 to rev2.

    now, if you wanted to upgrade to a larger valve, toyota has made it easy for you. the rev1 head can house the valves from the 3sgte, which are 1mm larger than the stock 5sfe valve. the rev2 head can house the valves from a 2jz, which are 1mm larger. both will require the valve seats of the 5sfe head to be machined for proper fitment. doing this valve upgrade on the 5sfe head will increase flow by 25cfm and increase port velocity. while the head is off one should go ahead and p&p to have all casting flaws removed and increase flow. i've heard that 1cfm is worth 1hp, but i'm not sure.

    ok, i'll also mention that the between the rev1 and rev2 there were 3 sets of cam profiles used that i know of. this would be the reason for the hp increase in the 6th gen celica. it also moved the powerband up a few hundred rpm.

    rev1
    Intake: lift = 0.290" duration @.050" = 202 deg
    Exhaust: lift = 0.300" duration @.050" = 210 deg

    rev2
    Intake: lift = 0.319" duration @.050" = 194 deg
    Exhaust: lift = 0.319" duration @.050" = 200 deg

    Another rev2
    Intake: lift = 0.319" duration @.050" = 200 deg
    Exhaust: lift = 0.319" duration @.050" = 200 deg

    so as you can see a rev2 camshaft set would actually be an upgrade for the rev1 engines.

    another thing i will cover really fast is the ability to raise the compression ratio from the stock 9.5:1 to 10.5:1 by milling the head. you will have to have a machine shop mill .040inches from the decklid in order to achieve this. a 1pt gain in the CR is worth a 4-6% increase in hp/tq. i wont dive to deep into this at the moment, but it will be discussed.

    there is much more to be covered and i'll get around to it afterwhile.

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  3. #3
    I'll be the little spoon KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey has a reputation beyond repute KoreanJoey's Avatar
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    How well does the 5sfe do with the higher compression?

    Are there any problems with detonation or hot spots?

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
    Joey wins this thread.

  4. #4
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    i have had no problems with detonation. i'm sure there are no problems with hotspoting either. when i pull my head to install the new 3s valves i'll be able to check for evidence of hot spotting.

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  5. #5
    Made It! burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd's Avatar
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    Best of luck to you. I really don't know much about the 5sfe, so...
    Last edited by grayscale; 12-03-2007 at 10:15 AM.
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    Originally Posted by vangls14
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    just because you want to be "different". Why not just take that mentality a couple steps forward and get yourself a Pontiac Aztek?

  6. #6
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    Quote Originally Posted by burnyd
    Best of luck to you. I really don't know much about the 5sfe, so...
    We're here to help!
    Last edited by grayscale; 12-03-2007 at 10:15 AM.

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  7. #7
    Am I being detained officer? tuner4life is a name known to all tuner4life is a name known to all tuner4life is a name known to all tuner4life is a name known to all tuner4life is a name known to all tuner4life is a name known to all tuner4life's Avatar
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    When raising compression to 10:5:1, what grade of gas do you have to use????

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  8. #8

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    Thanks burnyd.
    Last edited by grayscale; 12-03-2007 at 03:03 AM.

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  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tuner4life
    When raising compression to 10:5:1, what grade of gas do you have to use????
    The best you can buy. The "octane" put into gasoline allows it to keep from being burnt at lower temps, reducing knock and predetonation. Buy whatever 9X octane you have available in your area.

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  10. #10

    Default

    About shaving the head- I seem to have misplaced the info on what the factory deck height is, but when shaving this much you need to be sure yours has not already been done. Your machinest will need to subtract the 0.040 from the original deck height and then shave your head to the correct height. If I can figure out where I put it, I will add these numbers as they can be critical.

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  11. #11
    Made It! burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd is a glorious beacon of light burnyd's Avatar
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    i love the mad power of the 5sfe.
    Last edited by hookecho; 12-03-2007 at 02:55 AM.
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    Originally Posted by vangls14
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    just because you want to be "different". Why not just take that mentality a couple steps forward and get yourself a Pontiac Aztek?

  12. #12
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    the reason we are discussing these kind of things is simply because THIS IS A N/A FORUM. we will discuss the motors that the majority of us have. the 5sfe, 3sfe, 7afe, and the rare but occasional 3sge. we will not discuss the 3sgte swap here. there is a forum next door for that. we are about making the most of atmospheric pressure.

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  13. #13
    Featuring Chaos, the Wendigo Celica Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy has a reputation beyond repute Murgatroy's Avatar
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    What about the unloved 4AFE?

    I happen to be very fond of mine...

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    Yoda for President

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    Bullshit asshole, no one likes the tuna here!

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    Originally Posted by Murg's Wife
    Don't touch naked people!

  14. #14
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayscale
    About shaving the head- I seem to have misplaced the info on what the factory deck height is, but when shaving this much you need to be sure yours has not already been done. Your machinest will need to subtract the 0.040 from the original deck height and then shave your head to the correct height. If I can figure out where I put it, I will add these numbers as they can be critical.
    actually, you can mill quite a bit from the head before making it interference. of course that doesn't mean you should. i know for sure you can mill 1/4in and keep it noninterference. if you go up 2 points in compression you'll definately be needing some kind stand alone ems.

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  15. #15
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murgatroy
    What about the unloved 4AFE?

    I happen to be very fond of mine...
    forgot about that one.

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  16. #16
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    ok, so the 2 major differences that make the 5sfe head questionable to some in the respect of making power are the slave gear driven exhaust cam, and the 22 1/2 degree valve angles.

    lets start with the cams. the intake cam is driven by the timing belt. the exhaust cam is turned by the gears attached to both cams as seen below.



    what this effects is the adjusting of the cams by way of adjustable cam gears. you can buy an adj. cam gear for a 1zz and enlarge the mounting hole a little and it will fit the 5sfe. the problem with having an adj. cam gear on the 5sfe is that it will only adjust the intake cam, and when the intake cam moves the exhaust cam will move in the opposite direction. so in sense what you do to the intake cam will also be done to the exhaust cam. when it comes to dialing in a set of cams during tuning it can make it a bit difficult to actually get the most out of a set of cams. it doesn't however make that much of a difference to warrant not upgrading your cams at all though. luckily for everyone, Mister2dt, a member here, has developed a set of adjustable cam gears for both the intake and exhaust cam of the 5sfe. they will replace the internal gears we have now. i will have to talk to him and find out if they are in production yet. so this will definately be a benefit to us all. i'll get pics as soon as i can.

    next is the valve angle on the 5sfe head. pretty much this is a design that creates alot of torque for our motor. it doesn't neccessarily hinder anything accept the fact that the motor doesn't rev high and that that power is made earlier in the rpm range and not later. you can however, with better cams, shift that powerband so that more power can be made later in the rpm's and also allow you to rev higher. of course better air flow through the head will help too. there are several factors that come into play, but the 5sfe head has potential.

    it is easier to get the 5sfe to make and carry more power in higher rpm's than it would be to get the 3sge to make more torque in its lower rpm's.

    i will cover more on this but i have to go for now.
    Last edited by hookecho; 12-04-2007 at 03:51 AM.

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  17. #17
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    this is a copy/paste of a primer from the folks at MCS that i found very helpful.

    First and foremost – porting/polishing a head (NA or Forced Induction) should be 100% based on YOU the customers’ HP/drivability goals. If your head machinist doesn’t get into information on your HP/drivability goals, the application you will be using your car in, or that tuning a motor to make more power involves more than just forcing air into the combustion chamber, is a mistake! Increasing airflow without losing velocity is an art, and it's not as simple as just boring out the ports to make them larger with huge CFM numbers!

    Basics:

    We all know that a motor is basically an air pump right? In a four-stroke combustion engine, two of the cycles exchange air in and out of the cylinders; combustion perpetuates this process. For all intents and purposes, the motor spends half its time pumping air. Efficient airflow is an important facet of a performance engine and can impact volumetric efficiency (the amount of air drawn into the cylinder vs. total cylinder displacement).

    Head: Forms a combustion chamber at the top of each cylinder – this is where the compressed air/fuel mixture is ignited.

    Valves: Allow air in and out of each cylinder, along with cam shafts that set in motion these valves.

    Ports: These are corridors in and out of the cylinders and are situated behind each valve.

    Head Significance: Since a motor pumps air, its ability to breathe affects performance. The head can limit how efficiently the motor takes in air. Head porting uncorks the head, refining the pathway the air must travel. The result of a better flowing head is more potential power, overall. The size and shape of the port, and the valve job are all critical variables when tuning your 3S (or any) head.

    What *should* head porting accomplish overall? (In a well balanced system)

    Maximize the volume of air entering and leaving the head without losing velocity.

    Why is volume and velocity important?

    Volume is important because by drawing more air into the cylinder the engine demands more fuel; this results in a more powerful combustion and subsequent gas expansion. Maintaining velocity ensures the increased volume reaches the cylinder.

    How is all this measured? How can a consumer be sure?

    Generally, a quality machine/engine shop will employ a flow bench and pilot tube to measure air flow and air velocity, respectively (to a given %). With these tools, the ports can be tuned for a given application (yours – the consumer). Forced induction or all-motor – the head can be optimized to suit your needs. You are wasting your time and money on head work not catered to YOU. Verify your head is catered to YOU with Flow Bench numbers showing everything – not just CFM.

    Continued below...

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  18. #18
    The Notorious P.I.G.
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    What is head porting and why?

    When MCS ports/polishes a head we must strike a balance between the size of the port and the resulting air speed for a given application. Keep in mind a couple of porting principles:

    1. Air speed is inversely proportional to port size, so the larger the port, the slower the air speed!

    a. Often people remove too much material from the port seeking greater air volume and end up with too little velocity.

    2. Flow efficiency. 100% efficiency is equivalent to air flow through a tube of the same diameter as a given valve with no obstructions. We can't achieve 100% efficiency because there is a valve at the end of the port! This obstructs the flow!

    a. Flow efficiency can be calculated as follows:

    i. Actual Test Flow / Maximum Possible Flow = Flow Efficiency (%)
    By using the flow bench and pilot tube, an ideal port size can be determined while maintaining optimal velocity. MCS port work is gauged based on the flow numbers at low, mid and high lift.

    Example:

    If you are drag racer – you'll be looking for peak power at the top end of the rpm band. If you're looking for street performance, you may want more mid- to high-rpm power. You can expect to trade off low- to mid-lift flow efficiencies if you are porting the head for optimal high-lift flows (pretty logical right?) However, it is possible to increase mid- and high-lift flow without taking too much away from the low lift flow. This will give your engine a more useable power range. (MCS tactics)

    What is head porting?

    There are several different ways to port a head. The traditional manner is hand porting with a die grinder and carbide bit. The goal of MCS porting is to reshape and refine the ports. Factory heads have surface imperfections from the machining process and sand casting that are not cost effective for the factory to remove prior to mass production. Therefore, flow taxing turbulence is present in most heads.

    To counter this problem, MCS’s goal is to straighten, streamline and polish the pathway of the port, uncorking the airflow traffic jam. Air moves the fastest on the bottom of the port (or the port floor), which is the shortest route to the valve. Thus, optimizing the floor is particularly important. Maintaining adequate velocity is essential for performance, since the volume of air is ineffective without getting it into the cylinder as quickly as possible. Some recommend shaping the floor, while others feel the factory shape is adequate and only needs to be enhanced and polished. Either way, we believe that refining the port is beneficial.

    Some of MCS’s high-performance applications (STAGE III+) take porting one step further and refine the "bowl," the curved section before the throat. This is usually where the valve guide protrudes into the port. To reduce the impedance caused by the valve guide, some will grind away the portion that protrudes into the bowl. This technique, while effective, is not necessarily recommended for a true street (DD) application, since the valve guide's durability and reliability could be reduced.

    The shape of the combustion chamber can also affect performance. Some hand porters will polish and reshape the combustion chamber to improve the quench zones. Quench areas are sections of the combustion chamber that direct the air/fuel mixture toward the spark plug during compression to minimize the amount of potentially unburned fuel at the extremities of the chamber as well as reduce the chance of detonation. The combustion chamber can also be welded, milled and repolished to increase compression and to completely change the shape of the quench areas to further improve combustion efficiency.

    What is polishing/swirling/?

    Not going to dive too deep into this, but I just want to point out a few things.

    If we extend the envelope of airflow testing – the next logical step is to recognize the presence of externally induced mixture motion. The pattern that the charge takes as it exits the valve and combustion chamber area and enters the bore is identified as mixture motion.

    Swirl is identified as the rotational motion of the incoming air charge about the cylinders' axis as it enters the bore. An example of this would be water going down the drain of your bath tub – swirl follows the perimeter of the bore. Swirl is used to improve octane tolerance by creating a quicker burn, increasing combustion stability, and improving EGR tolerance. On a forced-induction street engine below 9.5:1 (possibly up to 10.0:1) compression (12.5:1 on NA motors), the resounding consensus is that motion will pay dividends in octane tolerance, which would allow for a higher compression ratio on pump gas, along with better throttle response and drivability.

    Internal charge acceleration: This is a relocation of the charge nearer the spark plug and the acceleration of the mixture as the piston reaches TDC – the charge is forced from the squish regions. Internal charge acceleration is created by increasing the squish/bore area relationship. It has a positive effect on burn time.

    Continued below...

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  19. #19
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    What is a Valve job? What does it do?

    The valve job is an often-overlooked component of the head that can have a dramatic effect on flow efficiency. This is where terms like three- and five-angle valve jobs come into play.

    Stock valves and valve seats only have one or two angles: The main valve cut, which seats and seals the valve, and the smoothing throat cut (the throat is the section of port that lies just before the valve seat). When you look at a high-performance three-angle valve job, three angles are cut into the valve and valve seat: the throat cut, seat cut and top cut. The top cut is located after the seat cut, and like the throat cut, is intended to smooth the transition of air before and after the seat cut.

    A five-angle valve job adds a shallower cut before the throat cut and after the top cut to further smooth the pathway the air must travel. I’m not going to divulge the specific valve angles we use in valve jobs, because finding the best angle combination requires extensive flow-bench testing. However, multi-angle valve jobs are a sufficient description in all MCS valve jobs.

    Valve seat angles can make or break flow numbers and are critical throughout the lift range but pay the largest dividend at low lift when both the intake and exhaust valves are shrouded.

    Flow bench testing of different ground-in seat angles is a factor that many overlook. Whenever MCS deals with airflow – we take a systems approach. It usually is the most productive route. A good rule is--if in doubt, go small. A smaller port area, intake manifold cross-section and exhaust primary tube sizes will reward more often than too large a component.

    what's a flow bench, how it works, and how results can be analyzed/read/used by the public.

    What is an air flow bench?

    An air flow bench is a device used for testing the internal aerodynamic of an engine component. Used primarily for testing the intake and exhaust ports of cylinder heads of internal combustion engines. It is also used to test the flow capabilities of any component such as air filters, carburetors, manifolds or any other part that is required to flow gas. It is one of the primary tools of high performance engine builders and porting cylinder heads would be strictly hit or miss without it.

    What air flow bench does MCS use?

    At MCS we have an in house Super Flow 600 or SF-600. We have the ability to flow up to 600 CFM’s.

    http://www.superflow.com/flowbenches/index_316.cfm

    What does flow bench data mean – how can I use it, is it real?

    This depends on how you define real. If executed properly the flow test results will be accurate, but they may not be indicative of the actual airflow in the engine.

    Many factors come into play during the dynamics of engine operation that cannot be duplicated on the bench, but can be mathematically predicted. A common mistake that many operators make is not checking the intake port of the head with the intake manifold and companion components attached. Air does not like to make turns, and the longer the path it must take to the valve, the more frictional flow losses occur.

    The proper method of testing is to quantify the intake port of the cylinder head with a radiused inlet as a baseline. Then test again at all lift points with the intake manifold and throttle body installed. By quantifying the flow loss with the intake manifold you can better plan your port modifications. A good rule is not to accept more than a 20 percent loss through the intake components. Ideally you would want no loss, or actually have the intake design complement the port by adding airflow.

    As an example, if the cylinder head flows 275 cfm @ 28 inches of water, and with the intake manifold and TB it only flows 206 cfm, a 25 percent flow loss is present. In this case the intake manifold would need to be changed or modified to reduce its impact on maximum flow. If you are forced to use this manifold then it would not behoove you to spend time trying to get the head to flow to 300 cfm since the intake will choke it down to 206 cfm.

    It's important to recognize low lift flow numbers and to evaluate the impact that your modifications have throughout the flow range. Herein lies the importance of software and computer-aided flow bench data acquisition. Even though flow graphs can be established manually, human nature being what it is, one usually avoids this tedious task. When looking at a graph of a port's characteristics at different lift points, the area under the flow curve can be easily defined by triangulation. A port that has a larger area under the curve will generate more power than one that has higher peak flow, but less area. This, like most of us have come to realize, is the essence of what a properly engine build will produce – an engine dyno with the same characteristics – area under the curve.

    Beyond frictional flow losses, other factors affect airflow in an engine and cannot be duplicated by flow bench testing. These are (not all inclusive):

    • Air density
    • Thermal transfer to the incoming charge from the engine
    • The mass of the fuel being used
    • Piston crown configuration
    • Rod/stroke ratio
    • Piston velocity
    • Engine rpm
    • Intake manifold tuning characteristics

    This does not discount the validity of flow testing and with some simple mathematical equations, an accurate prediction of engine performance can be derived.

    Continued below...
    Last edited by hookecho; 12-08-2007 at 11:34 PM.

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  20. #20
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    Understanding Flow Bench Data

    With the basic guidelines and procedures for flow testing established, the age-old question of interruption of the data comes up. To fully use flow bench readings, an understanding of the internal workings of an engine is required.
    Ultimately, piston velocity determines the amount of flow through a cylinder head along with the size and shape of the port and the valve. Once the bore is filled, the combustion event will determine how effectively it uses the charge to generate an expanding flame front and push the piston down.

    Factors related to cylinder head design go beyond flow capability – they include burn rates and spark plug location. The location of the initiation of the ionization process has a major impact on the cylinder pressure rise in relation to the crankshaft's arc of rotation past TDC. The ideal position is the center of the bore with a hemispherical combustion chamber for the best surface-to-volume ratio. None of this can be established on a flow bench and will be responsible for different power levels produced with the same airflow numbers.

    Cylinder head intake runner volume has an impact on velocity, and in turn VE. Customarily measured in cubic centimeters this value can give an indication of the area of the port but it can be deceiving. Liquid volume measurements alone do not calculate area, and two different port shapes could pour out to the same cc measurement.

    A port with a larger bowl area and smaller cross section can consume the same liquid volume as one with a large cross section and smaller bowl. Port area derived from a coordinate measuring machine (CMM) is how OEM’s define volume. Since this is impractical on the enthusiast level, it's common to take a cold pour rubber mold of the port and calculate the area by means of vernier caliper readings.

    A concern for velocity is also represented by integral design protocols such as port taper and entry angle along with the valve angles in reference to the bore centerline. Velocity of the charge, as the pumping effect of the piston creates a low pressure region in the bore, will affect VE.

    The larger the port area, the slower the velocity and the higher the rpm the engine will require in order to use this port effectively.

    *how* much airflow theoretically is needed for X amount of HP

    Through the use of mathematics, flow bench data can be used to predict many engine scenarios. Inertial supercharging, estimated VE, engine speed for peak power, maximum safe engine rpm, among others. But the resounding question in this industry is how much airflow do I need to support a certain power level, and if I have airflow numbers, what power can I predict?

    A very elementary but simple equation is: Airflow at 28 inches water x .257 X the number of cylinders = horsepower potential from airflow.

    To demonstrate let's plug in some numbers: 275 cfm x .257 x 4 = 282.7 HP

    If you want to go from horsepower to needed airflow: HP/.257/4 = required airflow. This equation takes little into consideration but works well to get you into the ball park.
    Last edited by hookecho; 12-08-2007 at 11:36 PM.

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  21. #21
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    that's it in a nutshell. a very informative write up that is put in the simplest terms so that everyone understands it.

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  22. #22
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    let me go ahead to add that with the 5sfe head it's not the ports that are holding back air flow as much as it it the small valves. you will see a major increase in flow by upgrading to a 1mm larger valve. it could probably stand to have a 2mm larger valve in it. not saying that a proper porting isn't valuable. just saying that it's not the major problem that most would think.

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    Let's say one wanted to go larger than the readily available 1mm options. Do you have any ideas on what might work?

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    Do you have a link to MCS?

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  25. #25
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    yup. you can buy an aftermarket 1mm oversized 3sgte valve. so that would be a 2mm os valve for the 5sfe.

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