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  1. #1

    Default Doing some mods, got some questions

    Alright guys, in the 2 years I've had this, these are the "mods" I've done.
    1. Destroyed clutch
    2. Made 2nd gear synchro a LOT worse
    3. Ignored torn CV boot, so joint now sounds like machine gun in a turn. D'OH
    4. Rims, not quite a mod.

    Well, as a 2jzgtte in an RA29 is still just a dream, I've started gathering parts to fix all the above (but rims of course), and I'm also gathering a few new parts

    1. G head off a 89 GT-S, already got it off ebay, can't beat a $10 complete head
    2. Camry headers
    3. 2.25" cat back
    4. Custom Camry cold air "box"

    Now to the questions instead of the rambling.

    About the head, it is complete, but is there anything else I would need? And does anyone know if the 5sfe timing belt will work. I checked out the sight where someone did this, but he didn't mention a timing belt. Also, and forgive the lack of proper terminology, but what is the volume of the...um...(damn lack of vocabulary)...area which the air would take up at top dead center? I'm going to try to keep stock 10.5 : 1 compression, and I need to know if I'm going to need a very big gasket or what. I'd also like to know this before I pull the engine to do this, as this is my DD.

    The headers. I'm going to be taking a trip to the junkyard to find these. I know hooligans is a 98, but couldn't find any info what about other years they would be in.

    Intake. I remember back on C.net someone saying that they were going to try this, but can't remember any details, or even if he did it. Only real question I have ,as this is something I can take time with, is what years had the larger box, and would I have to move the fuse box to install it?

    Considering that my main goal here is not uber top end, but rather decent gains throughout the power band, do you think I'm doing this right, or am I going at this bass ackwards? And lastly, my goal for this project would be 120 fwhp. Remembering I'm a mile high, do think these mods would be enough?

    Thanks for taking the time to read all this.

    Cory Smith
    She lives!!!

    And now thrives. Took 3 years and an embarrassing amount of money, but tooooooooootally worth it
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  2. #2
    BiscutWheels
    Guest

    Default

    first, what year and model is your car?

    Before all of your questions can be answered you need to tell us that, and where did you get the idea that you have 10.5:1 compression ratio.

    Go here and tell us what engine you have specifically.

    http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/P...neEngines.html

    Oh, and the volume you are talking about is the "combustion chamber volume".

    Nate

  3. #3

    Default

    considering the long stroke of the 5s block with the high rpm air efficiency of the GE head it should be a pretty sweet engine as far as the torque curve is concerned

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    I had good time with this one
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    The new ride!!

    msn:
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  4. #4

    Default

    Well, it's a 90 gt. I got the idea that it was 10.5 : 1 off of HenryVo.com. But I'll admit to having the memory of a retarded chipmuck, as the sight you just linked is saying 9.5 : 1 for the 5s
    She lives!!!

    And now thrives. Took 3 years and an embarrassing amount of money, but tooooooooootally worth it
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  5. #5

    Default

    the G-head swap is somewhat involved, since you are replacing the head (which changes the cam gears on the setup) then you need the 3sge timing belt because it is longer than the 5sfe belt.

    But then since the number of teeth on the 3sge gears are different from those on the 5sfe cam gear this means that you need to get the appropriate (3sge) CRANK timing gear to make sure that your mechanical (cam to crank) timing is correct when you do the G-head swap on top of the 5sfe

    Also the intake ports on the 3sge are different from those on the 5sfe so you need a 3sge intake manifold with your head.

    So 3sge head, 3sge belt, 3sge timing gear on the crank, 3sge intake manifold.

    since you are doing the timing belt job anyway you might want to go ahead and get a new water pump , and the go for a 3sgte oil pump (it's an upgrade to the 5sfe pump)....

    And that should do it. You have a 1990 GTS? make sure you get a head gasket off your year 5sfe and one off that year 3sge and make sure that all the water/coolant passages in the head are there... the 3sgte heads (which are the ones that i've seen for the swap i reead the how-to on) had extra coolant passages that did not exist in some early 1st generation 5sfes (90-92) ... supposedly 92+ 5sfe's had the newer style block.

    but since your G-head is from an NA car (3sge-no turbo) (so from a 1st generation 3sge) ...then it 'might' be compatible with the earlier generation 5sfe/3sfe heads.

    Edit: last but not least... the 5sfe stock is a 9.5:1 CR.
    The 3sgte Head swap on a 5sfe ends up being an 8.x:1 CR motor ... something about the difference in design between the 5sfe and 3sgte pistons. However, i do not know what the resultant compression will be for an NA 3sge head on the 5sfe... you can always mill the head by 10 to 20 thousands to bump the CR up a bit.

    -nuke
    2005 C200 Kompressor sport
    K&N Filter, HKS 2.5" throttle pipe, Apexi WS2 Muffler, DIY Voltage Stabilizer, Intrax lowering springs, H&R rear 19mm sway bar, EBC redstuff pads, EBC 13" front rotors, Stop Tech front brake lines, VDO Boost gauge @ 7psi, Greddy Iridium Plugs, Sprintbooster
    On the way:HKS FCD's (12psi), Remus testpipe (2ndary cat), vortech 2:1 FMU

    my blog:
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  6. #6

    Default

    You will also need the 3S t belt tensioner [I believe]
    And the 3S-GTE water pump is a upgrade also. It flows much better.
    You should mill the head anyways. It's aluminum, and should be done whenever one is removed to ensure a flat surface.

    Also, this will mess up the a/f a bit.
    The ecu has a pretty specific # for airflow in the engine[because it uses a map sensor]. If you go to a different head and manifold, you will change the actual amount, which the ecu won't be able to tell.

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  7. #7

    Default

    BTW, do the header you're planning on getting replace the primary cat too? Or is it just a real short manifold?
    Getting rid of the stock cat would help a bit too.
    I've got a Catco one sitting right behind the firewall instead.

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  8. #8

    Default

    Wont you need a 3S ECU, distributor, ignitor, coil, etc?
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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    - Shadow's Army - Commander In Chief


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    Originally Posted by surfergravity
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    This thread is gayer than Richard Simmons singing a duet with Elton John in a bath house.

  9. #9

    Default

    yeah 3s distributor ... but you can make your 5sfe fit the bill for the rest
    you can easily run a 3sge on 5sfe ecu ... with a 10:1 A/F ratio at the higher rpms on the 5sfe ecu, you have room for a 160hp engine to come in and eat up that extra rich fuel...
    2005 C200 Kompressor sport
    K&N Filter, HKS 2.5" throttle pipe, Apexi WS2 Muffler, DIY Voltage Stabilizer, Intrax lowering springs, H&R rear 19mm sway bar, EBC redstuff pads, EBC 13" front rotors, Stop Tech front brake lines, VDO Boost gauge @ 7psi, Greddy Iridium Plugs, Sprintbooster
    On the way:HKS FCD's (12psi), Remus testpipe (2ndary cat), vortech 2:1 FMU

    my blog:
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  10. #10
    Edicius
    Guest

    Default

    i'd like to see a really specific step by step write up on this because it sounds like an interesting swap.

  11. #11
    Kwanza
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edicius
    i'd like to see a really specific step by step write up on this because it sounds like an interesting swap.
    I think it sounds a lot more like guessing... on the elctrical part anyway.

    So onto the stuff... the reason compression drops dramatically is because the 5S pistons were designed for the 5SFE head. The pistons are almost dished. The compression chamber of the GE head will reduce compression levels dramatically (bigger, wider). The only way to overcome this... get 3SGE oversized pistons. Shaving the head and running thinner gaskets is small-time and not a very adequate way of handling the problem.

    Whenever talks about swapping engines and hybrids come about, you always hear in such detail talk of the easy stuff. Mechanical stuff (BTW... you will need a longer timing belt no matter what. Even longer than the 3SGE belt cauuse the 5S block is taller)... you never hear the stuff about wiring, about how you get the 5SFE ecu to work, about how to set-up the map sensor to the 3SGE head and intake manifold, about how you overcome the 5SFE dizzy issue because it uses internal coil as opposed to externals on the 3SGE, about the differences between the TPS, about the rev limiter... on and on. That's why it sounds like guess-work to me. That, and just a while ago people were going on about the EXACT opposite... getting the 3SGE electronics to work on the 5SFE. You really cannot avoid the un-avoidable.

    In my opinion... don't bother with the 5S bottom-end if you plan on staying n/a. The torque advantage creates the potential for power loss on the top-end, because the 5S bottom-end is very over-squared and somewhat underbuilt for revving. Just go with the true and squared 3SGE.
    Last edited by Kwanza; 02-07-2005 at 08:32 AM.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwanza
    In my opinion... don't bother with the 5S bottom-end if you plan on staying n/a. The torque advantage creates the potential for power loss on the top-end, because the 5S bottom-end is very over-squared and somewhat underbuilt for revving. Just go with the true and squared 3SGE.
    I'm not going for a high revver. I fact, my plan is for a good torquey engine, hence why I've decided not to go with the highest flowing of every mod I've chosen. I don't honestly care if the engine can rev to 7000, just so long as I get good bottom end acceleration. The 5s wasn't made for top-end and I know that, I'm trying to upgrade the engine to better suite it's strong points. The head seems to be a wrong choice in this area, but my figuring is that more air will equal more torque.

    My other plan for this was to have a relatively cheap set of mods, but you guys have started to scare me a little in this area. I will continue the research, and if it turns out that one could do the 3sge swap for the price of the g head swap, I won't go through with it. But if the research shows that it could be done, and the head gaskets prove that the head'll be compatible, I will try this despite the set-backs.

    Thank you all who've helped so far, even (especially) those who are telling me why it shouldn't be done. This is the exact type of info I need to see this project through.

    And yes, I plan on doing a write up if this happens.
    She lives!!!

    And now thrives. Took 3 years and an embarrassing amount of money, but tooooooooootally worth it
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  13. #13

    Default

    if i recall correctly.. that place in florida sells pretty much full 2nd gen 3sge swap for 400$ (was like 545$ shipped to virginia) i soooo should've done that instead of 3sgte

  14. #14
    Kwanza
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiko
    I'm not going for a high revver. I fact, my plan is for a good torquey engine, hence why I've decided not to go with the highest flowing of every mod I've chosen. I don't honestly care if the engine can rev to 7000, just so long as I get good bottom end acceleration. The 5s wasn't made for top-end and I know that, I'm trying to upgrade the engine to better suite it's strong points. The head seems to be a wrong choice in this area, but my figuring is that more air will equal more torque.

    My other plan for this was to have a relatively cheap set of mods, but you guys have started to scare me a little in this area. I will continue the research, and if it turns out that one could do the 3sge swap for the price of the g head swap, I won't go through with it. But if the research shows that it could be done, and the head gaskets prove that the head'll be compatible, I will try this despite the set-backs.

    Thank you all who've helped so far, even (especially) those who are telling me why it shouldn't be done. This is the exact type of info I need to see this project through.
    Makes sense... but also note you just can't have the best of both worlds with n/a 4 cylinders. Big horsepower engines usually rev high and have low torque numbers. Big torque 4 cylinders have modest hp numbers and low redlines with little top-end power. Making torque has less to do with flow capacity and more with velocity. Figure it out from there... and mainly... have fun with it.

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