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  1. #1

    Default V6 Alltrac writeup.

    Ok, apologies for the length of time its taken to do this and its still not totally complete, but having said that, its a sight more information than i had available to me when i took this on and i think its about time i gave as much as i can remember to all of you.
    I will attempt a wiring writeup in the next few weeks as well possibly as i know this area is one of dread for many potential swappers.
    Links provided so that you can save the largest possible photos.

    Quick disclaimer: I am not responsible for the consequences of or damages to either yourself or your vehicle/s( or anyone elses) as a result of following the information volunteered here. It is presented "as is" with no warranty or guarantee of completeness or accuracy although i have done my best to ensure that it is so.
    You are ultimately responsible for the safety of any modification/s that you carry out on your vehicle and agree to be bound by this disclaimer should you choose to act on the information within the article.





    Celica Gt4 3sgte turbo to V6 3.0litre 24v quad cam Conversion by 4v6.
    __________________________________________________ _____


    This article gives you most of what ive discovered/learned and also gives solutions/pointers to the various problems that you will encounter if you decide to take on such a conversion.

    First off lets detail the items you will need to source.

    You will need to find either a 3VZ-FE v6 or a 1MZ-FE for your swap, although other VZ/MZ series engines could be adapted if required.
    You will need ALL the engine wiring loom AND the COR(circuit opening relay-C.O.R.) plus its wiring with about 2 feet of wire- this is specifically for us "wrong side" drivers!
    US conversions may need more/less cabling- remove what wiring you can from your donor vehicles- you will thank me later!
    Also youll need the ecu (obviously) and a tacho capable of reading 6 cylinders instead of four.
    Incidentally, i used the board from the camry tacho; its identical apart from its capability to the celica item. Better still youll need only to gently prise off the securing lugs and pull the board out of its location. I did it this way to prevent disturbing the rev counter needle tension setting. However i found out that the reading was way off due to the tacho markings. Im ok living with it for the time being though, if youre not, youll have to find a solution in the form of a modified tacho or a replacement.

    See photos here:
    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...hoboardmod.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...F0004small.jpg

    Ok back to the engines. The main differences between these two engines are as follows.

    3vzfe has an iron block and aluminium heads. with a 3.0 litre displacement.
    A good used iron block will be superior for power production although the block will need some modification around the rear cylinder bank webbing to provide clearance for its new transmission assembly as this block type was never mated to an awd transmission in transverse form.

    The 3vzfe comes with pretty much bulletproof internals, possible weak spots are head gaskets and pistons that dont like to be subjected to more than around 7psi of boost.
    Rods are cast items and hold up well, but as with any kind of performance enhancement, youd do well to uprate to "H" section items if going for extra power/revs later on.
    The head gasket problem is a simple one to rectify either with an uprated head gasket ( not easy to find in the UK) or a wills ring installation around the circumference of each bore to exert extra pressure on the gaskets fire-ring.
    A maximum effort engine would likely benefit from forged pistons as well but, for our purposes they are unecessary.
    OBD1 on the 3vzfe is largely very forgiving of any problems.
    For example, the missing transmission solenoids when wiring the ecu in: The obd1 cares not one jot that these are missing and dosent even throw the management light, put up a code on or go into limp, it just gets on with the job and keeps it all together.




    1mz 3.0 litre is all alloy, making it lighter, although not vastly so.
    Weak spots on these are reported by some people as being both the rods, pistons and head gaskets with some reporting having had a broken piston in as little as 200 plus miles under boost conditions.
    The block will most likely not need to be modified to accept its new transmission assembly if this block type is used though as its already used with a similar transfer case on both Lexus rx300 and Toyota Highlander models.
    OBD2 on the 1mz is a pita with few modifications and sensor errors being tolerated, making the best option (if using this engine) a stand alone management system.

    The choice on engines is obviously up to the individual.
    My personal choice is the 3vzfe/5vzfe due to better strength and a more forgiving management plus power potential from tweaks alone is pretty phenomenal, however with uprated internals,and attention to detail both engines should be capable of some very serious power outputs.


    Ok, next up is the TRANSMISSION........

    Its been printed in various places on the web that such a swap as this is pretty much impossible.
    Under normal circumstances that would be true, but as we're intent on swapping in a big V6 and dont care about such minor issues as the impossible, that kinda proves we arent normal and thats why we can make it work........

    The original Alltrac/GT4 transmission cant be used- no it cant, so forget about it!
    The reasons are that the transfer case contacts the rear cylinder bank by such a large amount that in order to get a fitment you would have to remove around 20mm of the transfer case or the transfer internal crownwheel or at least 20mm of the block.
    Obviously thats not possible using the components we have so we need to change them.
    The main reasons other than the transfer case being an issue is the drive arangements.
    On the alltrac, drive is transmitted into the transfer via a splined collar with castellations on it. The castellations arent actually used on the alltrac and are a leftover from other uses of this particular transmission on models that had a user operated locking diff option.
    In the alltrac useage its simply locked out of the drive train by a quadrant and a bolt on the outer casing.

    Differences shown here in the drive collars alltrac on the right.

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0014.jpg


    Incidentally, the alltrac gearbox WILL bolt up to the V6 without its transfer case, the bolt alignments are mostly good with one or two not being where we want them, but this is all academic anyway because we'll be changing it.

    A front wheel drive swap will be an easier proposition altogether if using a suitable box like from a camry or Mr2, details are most likely available from a guy called Adrian Averignos who did the V6 celica in fwd format, with some photos of his layout on the web and who can be found on this forum.
    Thanks for some inspiration for this swap Adrian!


    You will need to source an awd transmission and transfer case from a toyota Rav4 5 speed manual.
    Mine came from the larger 03 model but im not certain of what engine was attached to it, although i suspect it was the 2.0 litre petrol version.

    Picture:

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/P1010223.jpg


    IMPORTANT NOTE****I do not know if the earlier versions of the Rav4 will work for this conversion!!!!

    Double Important Note****** You cannot use the highlander/lexus rx transfer case in place of the Rav4 item straight out of the box.
    The differences are because the lexus/highlander are auto's and the Rav is 5 speed manual.
    Toyota decided to use a different bolt layout for the two types which makes for an interesting time, should you try to intermix them, although it **may** be possible to drill new locations in place; Been there, done that, got the tee shirt, chucked it in the bin!

    Note; you could if you really wanted to , use the autobox and transfer from a lexus rx300/Toyota Highlander, but the box is so awfully heavy compared to the gt4 transmission, and in any case, who ever heard of an auto alltrac, and would we really want to?
    Nope, didnt think so. Not only that the autos have some well publicised issues with longevity.
    A side issue to be considered here is that if a lexus rx/highlander autobox and transfer case becomes available to you, cheaply-grab it! because its perfectly do-able to use the internals for spares in case of a problem ocurring in the future with the manual version youll need to source.
    I shudder to think what one of these would cost from Mr T's parts counter!

    You will also need the rh driveshaft assembly.
    The right hand side two piece item is the one you will need to go for but if you manage to find a lexus rx300 in the breakers yard, you could also use its right hand driveshaft complete.
    The important part to get is the INTERNAL shaft that passes INTO the transfer case, the outer shafts are of secondary importance. Incidentally, from toyota the rav4 rh driveshaft comes in at a jaw dropping £530 plus vat........needless to say, avoid at all costs!!!

    The rav4 and rx300 use a different construction of inner cv joint with the rav version being the trilobe type and the lexus being the usual ball bearing type.
    I can see no advantages over using either.
    In my case i had a spare alltrac drive flange modified and welded to the rav inner driveshaft, which needs 40mm removing from the "cup" part measured at the outside edge of the "cup" part and the flange welding on. Specialist job only i suspect here.

    Pictures:

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...03modified.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0008.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0010.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0012.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0015.jpg

    The left hand side driveshaft assembly from the Rav4 isnt needed because the alltrac drive flange fits perfectly in its place, just swap it over- way to go Mr T!

    Suitable clutch assy.

    I used the GT4/alltrac item simply because i was using a modified gt4 flywheel and to keep costs down.
    Possible alternative is the fidanza or similar flywheel, part number 130881 which will pay dividends in engine acceleration.


    Ok, so we have our engine, wiring, ecu, transmission and transfer case, rh driveshaft/s, flywheel and a whole load of work ahead of us.
    Good job we are one can short of a six pack cos we'd never get it done otherwise.


    Things to modify.....

    Rav4 gearbox. Just kidding! But you will have to remove a grubscrew located in the bellhousing that will prevent a mounting bolt at the rear of the block from being used. It simply unscrews with a bit of persistence.

    Picture:
    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...1010222mod.jpg

    Also the cable shifter securing bracket needs changing for the alltrac item due to the different angles that the cables enter on the Rav.
    Plus the bellcrank assy will need swapping for the longer alltrac item. This is an easy mod with just 2 or 3 bolts to remove and refit to achieve it.

    Pictures:
    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...v6pics/mod.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...010224mod1.jpg


    **important note** The Rav4 has a lower final drive making us (when we fit the box into the alltrac) have a lower top speed.
    Part of the solution to this is to use your 5th gear clusters from the alltrac to re-instate some top speed ability. The problem only occurs because the Rav has larger wheels that dont need to rotate so fast to give a high top end, hence the lower final drive.
    By swapping out the 5th gear clusters, you get a more respectable 130mph@6500rpm on 15 inch tyres (approx).
    A custom 5th gear of say 0.65:1 would give you 160mph with 0.5:1 into the 170 plus range-subject to overcoming the drag.
    Having said that, through the gears at least, i suspect an alltrac equipped with the conversion would be faster than a normal alltrac, certainly mine feels plenty quick enough with a couple of hardened turbo passengers reporting thats its way faster than their gt4's through the gears.


    Flywheel- The GT4 flywheel can be used and will need the mounting holes modifying, but an aluminium item will likely be a lot lighter and easier to source , especially in the States.

    Pictures of the flywheel mods here:

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ySolution1.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ySolution2.jpg



    3vzfe-engine block webbing at the flywheel end. Needs approx 10mm of material removing. This is very much a trial and error operation. Dont go too far and do take your time. I used engineers blue on the transfer case rear cover to show where it was contacting the webbing and removed it as and where needed.
    Paticence and persistence will pay off here.

    Pictures:

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...acboxtov62.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...lockrelief.jpg

    Rh driveshaft assembly. Rav 4 trilobe inner cv needs 40mm removing and the alltrac inner cv flange welding into position- specialist job only due to it needing to be absolutely concentric and located correctly.

    Pictures above.

    Longitudinal cradle that runs under the gearbox (will foul on the new transfer) so it needs a notch cutting into it and re-welding.
    Also a protrusion in the casting on the transfer should be removed because it will mean cutting a deeper notch than is otherwise necessary- grinding disc is all thats necessary here.

    Pics:
    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0074.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0076.jpg



    Rear exhaust manifold assembly- this cant be used as it is due to it directing exhaust gasses at the transfer and theres simply no room to pipe a re-direct. Basically you can fabricate a solution to this problem. There IS room to go up over the gearbox but its not easy. Theres also room for an exit to the right side of the propshaft which is where mine went- see the "squiddyfold " pictures to get an idea of whats needed.
    It may be possible to use the rear exhaust manifold from the 1mz engine due to it going up and over the gearbox when in the Lexus/highlander fitment.
    If youre doing an FWD conversion youll likely be ok with the rear manifold as youll have a whole heap of extra space that us AWD boys dont have.

    *Note* Its been subsequently found that the front manifold from the V6 will fit onto the rear bank without modification. This allows us to run a downpipe with a suitable joint to the exhaust system thereby eliminating the need to fabricate an entire manifold assembly.

    Pictures:

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0088.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/DSCF0027.jpg


    The engine bay wiring harness and interior wiring plus fuseboxes.
    My solution initially was to use both the camry fusebox and the alltrac fusebox.
    However a number of electrical gremlins dived in and created all kinds of interesting electrical symptoms and phenomena, that neccesitated the total elimination of the camry fusebox.
    I would suggest that this is the way to go.
    Refer to the Haynes camry book and your alltrac wiring diagrams for assistance here.

    gt4 to camry speedo sensor wiring colours:

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...nsorwiring.jpg

    Battery. Needs relocating, i put mine in the boot to help with weight transfer-I imagine 25pounds of lead acid battery swinging around a centre of gravity 5 feet away will have quite some effect on handling.
    Power cable routing for this is relatively simple.
    Remove the LH front wheel arch liner partially at the rear of the wheel well and look inside.
    Theres a rubber grommet just waiting for us to take advantage of and if you look up youll see a cable bundle going through a strain relief/grommet right into the engine bay.
    Ya gotta love Toyota. Just run your cable through here to the the original battery terminal location.

    Intake tract. Initially i used the alltrac rubber intake bends but they caused more trouble than worth so i returned to using the camry rubber intake.
    Youll need to fab up a fixing bracket that attaches to the LH suspension turret to locate the AFM.
    This is just another basic "L" bracket.

    Top and bottom radiator hoses. Bottom one is tight and a different diameter (bigger) than the alltrac and needs multiple bends in silicon pipe to get a fitment.
    Top hose needs extending out with two bends and a hardpipe to get a fit on the top hose connection which is again bigger than the alltrac- a little ingenuity and silicon pipes will overcome this problem.

    See engine bay photos in my gallery.

    Temperature sender for the temperature gauge.
    No modifications needed here it works fine as it is. Just ensure the wiring including the gauge earths in the alltrac harness in the car are correct and itll function properly.

    Things to make.....

    Front/Rear exhaust manifold and pipework. Time spent on removing the awful toyota manufactured merge point will pay large dividends in performance-20-25 bhp being the normal gain.
    Such a large gain is possible because of the poorly designed pipe merge:-basically it allows the front bank to direct into the rear bank(and viceversa) which increases backpressure, stalls flow and kills extraction, furthermore it will create charge contamination due to the exhaust backing up in the pipe- remove that merge!
    The centre exhaust section will also need to be modified- in my case i shortened it and welded in a new flexi pipe and flanges. Fitment will vary on design chosen.

    Bracing bracket for the transfer case:-adds extra support. This is just a simple "L" bracket that braces the two parts and is made from 1/4" to 3/8" steel plate and drilled to locate in the correct mounting points.

    Engine mounting/support plate. Connects engine to original gt4/alltrac mount with minimum of fabrication required:-easy mod.
    Basically a flat plate around 3/8" thick tapered along its length to clear the RH engine mount and drilled to bolt up to the original camry steel engine mount and alltrac rubber mount. Job is a simple one.
    You will also need to grind a relief in the aluminium part of the engine mount to clear the bolt head that sticks up from the camry V6 engine front mount.

    Pictures:

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j256/4v6/DSCF0001.jpg

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...untdetails.jpg

    Hardpipe for coolant top hose. Consists of an "L" shape to join the radiator to the top engine coolant outlet.

    Picture:

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j256/4v6/DSCF0005.jpg

    Power steering pipes- As the conversion was carried out on a Jap spec RH drive model i cannot say how you should modify the ps pipes on the LH drive models, apart from lengthening them by the required amount.
    NOTE* There should be no real difference between RH/LH drive versions due to the location of the necessary components being in the same place, therefore the previous info still stands.

    Power steering pump.-The camry item cant easily be used due to its size being double that of the alltrac item and its got two pressure cavities. Ditch it and use the alltrac item.

    You will need to remove around 5mm of material from the top mounting point of the pump to get bolt up with the camry ps pump mount.
    The lower mount with the adjuster will need a 15mm spacer fabricating and the original camry ps pump adjuster plate is the one to use.
    New ps belt length type is a 3PK(3 peaks) 808mm fits perfectly.
    The pump and pipes will be a tight squeeze though.

    No pictures available of this yet.


    Miscellaneous parts. 8 flywheel bolts-part number-90105-10207 These will need cutting down so that no protrusion through the rear of the flywheel mounting boss occurs.
    Remove approx 10 mm of thread to give the correct length.
    Pics:
    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2.../boltscopy.jpg

    6pk 935 alternator drive belt.

    3pk 808 ps pump drive belt.

    insulation tape.

    Haynes toyota camry manual-isbn 1 56392 351 3 has a comprehensive section on the wiring diagram for the camry with both 3vz and 1mz engine management types.
    Familiarise yourself thoroughly with it- it will save you lots of time and trouble later on when you wire it all in.

    I also used a chilton manual for the celica which has some quite in depth diagrams.
    Youll have to crosscheck one with the other a wire location at a time to determine which goes where.
    Its time consuming and a thorough PITA but it can be done- but we're nuts so it dosent bother us, remember?

    Selection of tools including sockets, spanners and screwdrivers etc.

    We're lucky in that most Toyotas can be taken apart with 8-10-12-14-17-19-21 and 32mm sockets and spanners, the sizes shown being the common ones.

    You will also need access to a mig or arc welder to fabricate some of your parts, a 4" angle grinder is useful too, and a space large enough to get the car into comfortably with an engine hoist or pulley blocks.

    Various axle stands and a trolley jack would be useful also.


    Procedure.

    Safety is paramount here. The alltrac engine and transmission weighs a hoooge amount and dropping it onto any part of yourself is going to be very bad news indeed. Be Careful and use common sense to avoid any "little" accidents.
    A trustworthy helper is also advisable.

    Remove your old engine and gearbox as per your workshop manual.

    If you dont know how to do this, either get some help or read up on it first.



    Ok its out and on the the floor...wow! that was fast!

    http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...s/MrPsycho.jpg

    scary huh?



    Remove the gear selector cable securing bracket- you will need this later.

    Remove the gearbox end mounting- this will be reused and fits the Rav box no problem- its a bolt
    on replacement.
    Remove the power steering pump, modify it as per the instructions and fit it and its lengthened pipes to the V6- trust me, its easier to fit it now rather than later when the engines in.
    Also fit the adjuster bracket and that little 15mm spacer you made earlier....you did make one? didnt you?

    Remove the transfer case from the gearbox. This is necessary because the engine and box need to go in from the top and the transfer case wont allow this to happen if its in place-it fouls on the steering rack and from what i remember, the firewall panel as well.
    Remove the the circular oil shield that sits on the tailshaft housing on the transfer- This will ring like a bell if its left on as the propshaft sits a little further forward into the transfer and just fouls it.

    Presumably youve already aquired your V6 and have been prepping it prior to installation? great stuff!
    Remove from it, the alternator and its mounting bracket, and the lower water pipe (the metal one) that connects to the radiator- these items will foul and create difficulties later on.

    Secure up any wiring or other pipework that may cause problems and proceed to lower the engine and the gearbox in from the top down. I found it wasnt possible to do it from underneath and raise it into position due to the rear bank of cylinders fouling on the lower arm mounting bolt on the right side-it may go in if the arm is removed, i dont know because i put mine in from the top although i suspect it will still foul on the exposed bolt that sticks out the chassis. Try it and see. This write up can then be ammended using others experiences of the conversion.

    Note: The engine will be a tight fit as it goes in with some fouling of the lower crank pulley and the rh longitudinal member. I put my engine in with it still attached, however you will definitely gain some room if you remove it first and bolt it back on later.

    It will go in to the bay on the skew, with the crank pulley end directed into the RH front of the engine bay.
    Once its into position you can swing it round so it sits roughly where it would normally.
    Ignore the fact that the intake manifold appears to protrude above the bonnet line- it does until you mount the transfer case up and then it will swing down (at the rear) giving a perfect line up with the normal alltrac mounts.
    Incidentally, i found that once the engine/box assy was mounted up using just the gearbox end mount and the longitudinal cradle mounts, the engine was almost unmovable.


    Ok, so its sitting there on its chains.
    Attach the gearbox end to the car by passing its mounting bolt through the rubber mount and engage it with the cars mounting locations. An assistant can be real useful here to raise/lower the assy and make your life a little easier.
    Make sure the bolt is tight.

    Now turn your attention to the RH mount.
    If you followed the article so far, youll have in your possession a flat bar with 4 holes drilled in that equate to the sizes and positions of those in the alltrac rubber mount and the V6 front mount.
    Offer it into position and engage the rubber mount studs and bolt the mount to the bar and the bar to the V6.

    Congrats! You have an engine that will now sit where it should.

    The transfer case can now be offered up ( unless you found you could fit the engine/transmission in one piece!) but first apply a smear of sealer to the rubber seal that is present on the mounting face- you absolutely do not want an oil leak developing here, not because its destructive but because its a lot of work to get it all off again!
    Do it right first time and save yourself extra trouble later.

    The rest of the procedure is basically as per the normal alltrac bolt up procedure but will of course involve the extra work required to fabricate the ps pipes and other items needed plus the wiring.

    Apologies for any omissions, im sure theyll be pointed out in due course.

    I do hope this at least helps to answer some of the raft of questions that this swap throws up, but dont forget i am still available to try and answer any of those "unanswered" ones as well, so feel free to pm me or email me.

  2. #2
    Puts the skillz to the extreme! extremeskillz will become famous soon enough extremeskillz will become famous soon enough extremeskillz's Avatar
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    Wow. really nice man.

    My question for you is, is this also applicable to to a ST184 like my GT-S? My is an auto and say if i do this in the future am I able to keep it auto using the same principle?

    Don't get me wrong i love manuels but Im more into keeping the car JDM and clean as possible and looking original as possible and converting it between auto to manuel will not achieve what i stand for. If my car was manuel then it will be a didfferent story.

    Do you have pics of your car running and maybe some video clips?

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by extremeskillz
    Wow. really nice man.

    My question for you is, is this also applicable to to a ST184 like my GT-S? My is an auto and say if i do this in the future am I able to keep it auto using the same principle?

    Don't get me wrong i love manuels but Im more into keeping the car JDM and clean as possible and looking original as possible and converting it between auto to manuel will not achieve what i stand for. If my car was manuel then it will be a didfferent story.

    Do you have pics of your car running and maybe some video clips?
    Not sure what an st184 actually is as ive never seen one before.

    Is it based on the st185 with the same 4wd system?

    Its possible to use the Lexus rx300 autobox mated to the 1mzfe v6 for sure.

    Ill do some video soon. I did do a couple of short clips but they wernt particularly inspiring as it was done on a local carpark.

  4. #4

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    ST184 = USDM FWD 90-93 Celica w/ 5S-FE

    I believe you guys across the pond get the ST182 which is the same thing but with the 3S-GE lump.

    By the way, spectacular job getting that beast running. Judging by your article, it took considerably more effort to get it installed than my 1MZ FWD setup. In my case the only major metal fabrication involved motor mounts, and the radiator hoses. You made my swap look easy! Nice job.

    One question for you though. Regarding the gear ratio differences between the alltrac box (e151f) and the RAV4 box, how are you dealing with the differences in gear ratios between the front and rear ends of the car?
    "The best nut you can tighten is the one behind the wheel."
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    (NOTE: Please send an E-mail if you want to get a hold of me in a timely fashion as I don't log into this message board often anymore. I still have the V6 Celica. Yes, I do drive it daily, and no I haven't made any changes to it in the last couple years.)

  5. #5

    Default

    Hi Adrian, thanks for your input, i reckon your obd2 took a bit of fiddling around to get sorted though!

    Do you have any diagrams of the tacho modification you used? as mine, even using the camry driver board is miles outa whack.
    Any help there would be well appreciated.

    The gear ratio differences: I thought about this one long and hard after id already started collecting parts, and it had struck me that i might have a big fat problem with differences in gear ratios between the gt4 and rav4 transfer boxes.
    Luckily, toyota did an ace engineering job when they reduced the crownwheel diameter on the rav, yet maintained the same ratio.
    At first i couldnt work out how theyd done this until i stripped both the cases and set the internals up side by side.
    The Rav transfer and the gt4 ratios are approx 2.9:1 and toyota kept them the same and kept the load capability high by extending the inside diameter of the Rav crownwheel. Clever stuff indeed.

    The result is that its powered exactly as before, dosent make any odd sounds or anything.
    Also, the fact that both the transfers have a viscous coupling; this is what makes it possible and it even retains its 50/50 torque split.
    It can accomodate differences in drive speeds just like a normal diff would.
    Imagine a diff placed between the two opposing ends of the car(longitudinally)- all it sees is two differences in rotation, just like it would if it was fitted on the axle when you go round a corner.

    It all just works out fine, surprisingly so.

    Looks like i had an element of good fortune with this swap, i wonder if the next wild-n-wacky one will be so "straightforward"?

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FourVeeSix
    Hi Adrian, thanks for your input, i reckon your obd2 took a bit of fiddling around to get sorted though!

    Do you have any diagrams of the tacho modification you used? as mine, even using the camry driver board is miles outa whack.
    Any help there would be well appreciated.
    The OBDII wasn't too bad. It was merely a matter of knowing which wires connect to what. Most of the OBDII stuff is interfacing between the computer and the engine anyway, which is wiring I didn't really have to mess with.

    As for the tack, I opted for replacing the entire tach driver. The Avalon tach bolted right into the Celica gauge cluster after I pulled off the needle. I tried to line up the needle correctly, and it ended up pretty close. I believe the needle is only off by 150rpm and the sweep for both gauges are nearly the same. Works fine, though it's not 100% accurate.

    That said, I'm in the process of replacing all the gauges with aftermarket units anyway as I didn't want to mess with trying to interface the electronic speedo sender with the mechanical speedometer originally installed. Supposedly I could have swapped in an electronic speedometer off a later Celica (93'ish?), but the tranny gear ratios wouldn't correspond correctly to the tire size anyway and the gauge would be off by about 8%.
    "The best nut you can tighten is the one behind the wheel."
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  7. #7

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    Obvious sticky.
    I will leave it here for now, and we can decide later if it needs to move.

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    I believe Adrian answered your questions about the ST184. Its just a 2wd version of the ST185 with 5sfe. Well thats good to know that alot of those parts are interchangeable. I didn't know you could mix camry with rav4.

    I guess you learn something new everytime your on this site. Good Job

    This is good info and yes alltracman78 its def sticky material.

  9. #9

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    Awesome write up. Answered a lot of my questions that i was about to send you.

    One little edit might be that the US-spec alltracs do not have an electric speedometer gear in the transmission and is run by a mechanical cabel instead.

    Also while doing a 3sgte swap it was much easier to lift the chassis up and bring the motor/tranny assembly in from the bottom. You mentioned that it should be brought in from the top but it should be very possible from the bottom as a regular 3sgte swap unless there's something different about the 3vz block to prevent this(Plus you get to keep your tranny/transfer in one piece )

  10. #10

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    Actually, the Alltrac and GT4 trans speedo gear is IDENTICAL.
    It is the outer bolt on to the small gear that is different.
    All you have to do is unbolt one and bolt in the other.

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  11. #11

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    oops i meant the sensor/attachment to cluster part of it lol
    Last edited by Banhbaobao; 09-15-2006 at 11:59 PM.

  12. #12

  13. #13

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    Back onto the transmission/transfer topic, in the "Doing the impossible" thread i think research showed that the transmission used is the E250F. While searching through the web on info it does not look like the Rav4 has changed its transmission at all through out its three generations.

    Therefore it might be possible to use any year tranny/transfer combo not just restricting to the 2nd gen Rav4s.

    On another note, the older rav4s use the 1AZ block while the newer rav4s(2004+), i believe uses the 2AZ block which is the 2.4L motor they now use for almost all of toyota's I4 motors(Aluminium block/head). Since the Rav4's share (i think) the same E250F, it looks like it is very possible to get this lighter motor onto the alltrac.

    Another possible swap? hahah


    Also according to internet sources, all Rav4s (After 1998?) have a rear Torsen LSD in their AWD models. I was wondering if this could be used in the alltrac somehow? (I have an open rear diff =( and looking for cheaper options.)
    Last edited by Banhbaobao; 09-18-2006 at 01:24 PM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banhbaobao
    Back onto the transmission/transfer topic, in the "Doing the impossible" thread i think research showed that the transmission used is the E250F. While searching through the web on info it does not look like the Rav4 has changed its transmission at all through out its three generations.

    Therefore it might be possible to use any year tranny/transfer combo not just restricting to the 2nd gen Rav4s.

    On another note, the older rav4s use the 1AZ block while the newer rav4s(2004+), i believe uses the 2AZ block which is the 2.4L motor they now use for almost all of toyota's I4 motors(Aluminium block/head). Since the Rav4's share (i think) the same E250F, it looks like it is very possible to get this lighter motor onto the alltrac.

    Another possible swap? hahah


    Also according to internet sources, all Rav4s (After 1998?) have a rear Torsen LSD in their AWD models. I was wondering if this could be used in the alltrac somehow? (I have an open rear diff =( and looking for cheaper options.)
    Alltracs all have torsen rear diffs as standard Bao.

    Another possible engine is the 2gr-fse (is that right? ) 3.5 litre V6 all alloy kicking out 350 bhp N/a! Waaaaaaa i want one!

  15. #15

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    Hmm according to a lot of members on alltrac.net rear lsds were options that were randomly put in.
    http://alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic....light=rear+lsd

    I am pretty sure mine is open but if it has lsd already that would be great, but the only way to find out is to pop it open and check. I think the RC versions all came standard with lsd.


    Yeah the 2grfse would be sweet but i would imagine the wiring on that thing would be a nightmare not to mention the cost and time to acquire the motor. =(. Maybe in a few more years haha.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Banhbaobao
    Hmm according to a lot of members on alltrac.net rear lsds were options that were randomly put in.
    http://alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic....light=rear+lsd

    I am pretty sure mine is open but if it has lsd already that would be great, but the only way to find out is to pop it open and check. I think the RC versions all came standard with lsd.


    Yeah the 2grfse would be sweet but i would imagine the wiring on that thing would be a nightmare not to mention the cost and time to acquire the motor. =(. Maybe in a few more years haha.
    Easy way to check you have an lsd fitted is jack up the rear, put the car in neutral and have a friend hold one of the rear wheels. Then attempt to turn the propshaft while observing the free wheel, it should rotate the same direction as normal. If it runs backwards its a normal diff.

  17. #17
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    Not all alltrac comes with a rear limited slip. No 165s did, some 185s did and all the 205s did.
    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  18. #18

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    That method doesnt always work as sometimes it takes quite a bit of power to get one of them to unbind and transfer it all to 1 side.

    I know my MR2 doesnt have LSD but if I have a buddy hold one side and I turn the other side it will drag him around and appear to have LSD but Ive spun just 1 tire on dirt and mud and left just one mark.

    So, as WOT said, some 5th gens have it, no 4th gens have it and ALL 6th gens have it. (referring to alltracs/GT4s within those generations)

    And as far as I know theres no definitive way to tell whether you have it on your 5th gen either.
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  19. #19

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    Ok today i attempted to swap out the 5th gear clusters from the ravbox and the alltrac box.

    At first sight they appear identical in both fitted position and componentry but ive discovered that there are differences that make this part of the swap impossible.

    The alltrac box has a straight machined shaft that the 5th gear sits on along with its synchro ring and hub.
    The ravbox has an almost but not identical arrangement.
    It differs in that the shaft the 5th gear sits on has a machined surface that is smaller in diameter than the alltrac version (major bummer) which means swapping between the two types cant be acheived.

    The only other solution is a custom 5th gear cluster to acheive the same aim, here in the uk prices quoted were around 200 to 400 pounds but i reckon in the states you guys will get it a lot cheaper.

    Point to note regarding the ravbox 5th gear synchro:

    Toyotas designer saw fit to alter the layout and number of components for this item so that instead of having 3 parts its now comprised of 7 parts....dont ask me why they deemed it necessary to introduce this level of complexity, i can only guess at their motives. It means that when you remove the synchro hub it all pops apart with the springs jumping all over the shop and its "fiddly" to say the least to get it back together. Thumbs down for that one i say.

  20. #20

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    Updates?
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    I forgot about this thread. Yea any news?

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    She's sold
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    Senior Member v8killer is on a distinguished road

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    dude i want a st165 manual locking center lsd for my ride!! sorry to revive this thread but damn thats just what i want!!

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    Are you serious?

    Jesus, you really should just get a fucking sportscar that was designed to go fast.

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  24. #24

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    some updated info.

    i've been research on a project for a completely different chassis BUT... as the project uses a 2GRFE engine *V6 3.5L* and several parts that are related to this build, i figured i'd share this.

    if you use the 2001-2005 Rav4 Sport 4WD transfer case, you can still have the all wheel drive from those wondering about a V6 in the altrac. you also wont need to worry about the transfer case's strength as it is *to my knowledge* the same thing as the ST205 transfer case but with a different outer shell that allows some headroom for V6 engines. you will need to go along with most of what this swap here is going for such as the passenger side drive axle modification. this will be needed yet again with the drive axle meant for the 4wd sport addition.

    also, as for a even bigger option, you all can fit the 2GRFE 3.5L aswell. as long as it's a 2005-2007 model, if it's a 2008+ model, you'll have a 2GRFSE direct injection version which has a new special ECU coding and is nearly useless to tune while the 2005-2007 models use a difficult but still tunable Dual VVTi quad cam ECU and are port injection.



    EDIT: Bah! i'm sorry i totally skipped right over the transfer case comparison and thought this was a FWD swap :brick:



    I DO, however, have a suggestion about the gear ratios.

    the 2001-2005 Rav5 manual trans used is a E153 and is EXTREMELY similar to the E153F that the GT4 uses... now that being said, why not use the E153 from the 93+ MR2 turbo? the bolt point of where the transfer case sits is just covered with a bolted on plate that can be easily removed. you can effectively increase top end upto 20-30mph faster which gear ratios that co-op with one another instead of having a bunch of short gears and one long one at the end. i only use those comparisons because they all are pretty much the same freakin' thing just with different gear ratios for the most part.

    I haven't been able to test fit this my self but i bet ya' anything it would probably work!
    Last edited by 3SmeCaptain; 12-14-2008 at 03:02 AM.

  25. #25

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    bump ^^ read edit

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