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  1. #1

    Default 3SGE Head + 5SFE Block

    Here's the backstory...I bought an '86 Celica GTS from a friend of mine with a rod knock for $400. It's a pretty clean car and I was hoping to just pull the pan and roll some new bearings in. Pulled the tranny and got the pan off and found that there was NO bearing left (other than the small amount fused to the crank) and that the rod end was WAY out of round. I did some searching/price checking (as I'm a chevy guy and new to toyotas) and found that toyota doesn't sell oversize pistons for the 3S block, negating a proper rebuild, and that a JDM replacement would be about $500. I'm just a poor college student so the funds weren't there.

    I found a free 3SFE motor locally and decided I might as well go with that (much to the dismay of every celica fan I talked to) just to get the thing up and running. After acquiring the motor, I noticed a 5SFE out of a '92 (?) Camry sitting in our pile of practice motors at school. After some preliminary checks it looked like a fairly straightforward swap, so I traded my used 3SFE for an almost new (less than 50 miles) 5SFE and the craziness began.

    I rebuilt the 5S block with new rings/bearing/seals just to be on the safe side. Physically the blocks are virtually identical. I say virtually because the first problem I ran into was the cooling passages were different between the 3S and 5S blocks. After some brainstorming I decided to modify the cooling passages on the GE head to match the passages on the 5S block. I then test fitted the head to the block and checked the valve to piston clearance due the the different valve angles and the clearance was OK.

    pic of the head cooloing passages. Had to machine out the part separating the passages for each cylinder.



    I reassembled the engine without any more difficulties. However, I soon found that even though the 3S and 5S blocks both have 8 bolt cranks, they use different bolts, 8mm on the 3S and 10mm on the 5S. Not a major problem but I thought it worth mentioning.

    Installation in the car was fairly straightforward. The only problem I encountered was due to 5S having a counter balance assembly bolted to bottom of the crank. This extends the pan down about 2 more inches and interferes with the exhaust downpipe (hope that's the right term). I took my pipe to a local muffler shop and had them extend it about 2" and it bolted right in.

    I've been doing this project in my spare time between classes so this has been going on for over 2 months. Finally got the car started today! The thing runs great and pulls stronger than a stock 3SGE (got to drive one in the meantime). And so far the whole car has cost me less than $1000!
    Last edited by RockStarZeus; 06-01-2006 at 12:58 AM.

  2. #2
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of
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    Default

    Very nicely done Congratulations! And just think, if you ever went crazy you could bolt on the 3SGTE manifolding, or cams.
    Last edited by MrWOT; 05-17-2006 at 06:51 AM.
    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  3. #3

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    Thanks! And the thought of going turbo has already crossed my mind. I don't think I would be able to run much boost with my compression, not sure though...

  4. #4

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    PS- Are the GTE cams better than the GE cams??? I'm more of an NA anyways.

  5. #5
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of
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    You can get the big ones, the 270s durations ones. Those would be good for a high performance 2.2 \
    Last edited by MrWOT; 05-17-2006 at 07:01 AM.
    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  6. #6

    Default

    Cool, thanks for the info.

  7. #7
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of
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    BTW, what year is the GE head motor? That will depend on the cam selection.
    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  8. #8

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    The head is from the original motor, 3SGE '86 GTS

  9. #9
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of
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    Then your best bet is the ATS 4th gen cams, though I'm not altogether sure if they are identical cams you'd have to ask them. They are 264 duration and 9.2mm lift, same one's I've got and they breathe nicely. I'm not sure what the stock specs are on the stock 3SGE but I'd guess they are still small enough to make a good difference, especially on a larger displacement motor.
    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  10. #10

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    OK. I added you to my msn messenger. Hope you don't mind. Figured it'd be quicker than going back and forth on here.
    Last edited by RockStarZeus; 05-17-2006 at 07:49 AM.

  11. #11

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    How does everyone feel about making this into an archive with sticky redirect to the archive forum. Great post.
    2007 Mazda RX-8 GT
    1992 Toyota Celica All-trac Turbo

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  12. #12

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    Well, drove the car around a little more today since I only got to drive it for about 10 mins yesterday (had a class to get to). After about 5 mins of driving today, it started to hesitate and smoke a little. Thinking this was just new motor growing pains I continued driving it. The smoking and sputtering continually got worse until it finally died and wouldn't start. Got it back into the shop and pulled the plugs. #1 and #2 were completely saturated with oil and #4 was getting there. Ran a compression test and got 160psi at all cylinders so my problem is my head.

    While I had everything apart I inspected the head and it obviously had a LOT of miles on it. Unfortunately, I was a dumba*% and didn't rebuild it.

    I need another head to rebuild and have ready to swap out because I can only have the car in the shop for 2 days max.

    Please please if anyone has one (doesn't have to be great, just rebuildable) let me know so I can get this thing fixed.


    PS-Thanx for the positive comments!

  13. #13

  14. #14

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    My local junk yard wants $250 for one that's "rebuildable". $390 for rebuilt.

  15. #15

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    OK, did some more troubleshooting on the car today. Pulled the plugs again and took a closer look at them. Closer inspection revealed that it wasn't actually oil but coolant that had all the water evaporated out of it (the glycol in antifreeze is about the consistency of oil without the water and additives in it). I checked the radiator and, sure enough, I was about 1/2 a gallon low. So then I statred trying to figure out where both coolant and vacuum were present and came up with the idle control valve on the bottom of the throttle body. I pulled the hoses off and sure enough, I had switched one of the coolant hoses with a vacuum hose. I put the hoses in thier proper places and now it runs great. Drove it home today with no problems. I was able to hit 60mph in a matter of about 300-400 feet.
    Last edited by RockStarZeus; 05-25-2006 at 01:49 AM.

  16. #16

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    Oops. Great to hear. Now let's get some dynos and time slips.
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  17. #17
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of MrWOT has much to be proud of
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    That's hilarious, I did the same thing when I was rerouting my vacuum lines, except I mistakenly attached the windshield fluid reservoir to the intake manifold.... much white smoke..... :oops:
    I really like the way aaawelder put it: "do not include yourself in this circuit"

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Playfortoday
    Oops. Great to hear. Now let's get some dynos and time slips.
    I don't have access to a dyno but I do plan on taking it to the strip within the next couple of weeks. Should be able to get a rough estimate on power based on the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWOT
    That's hilarious, I did the same thing when I was rerouting my vacuum lines, except I mistakenly attached the windshield fluid reservoir to the intake manifold.... much white smoke..... :oops:
    Yeah, I was thinking of rigging it up with a solenoid and toggle switch so I could have a smoke screen for getaways like James Bond. lol

  19. #19

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    Here's a pic of the car finally back home in my driveway.

  20. #20

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    Here's another pic of the head with the area you need to remove shaded red in case anyone wasn't sure what I was talking about.

  21. #21

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    so every thing works now? daily driver type or what?

    so from doing all this you got more low end torque? i dont really care about revving to 10k on a stock bottem end i just want a grip of power 5k and below.
    fill us in lol.... no replacing pistons,rods etc?


    -Tim

  22. #22

    Default

    Yeah, everything works fine. VERY good low end torque. When just driving around town I almost never take the RPM's past 2500 and it pulls through each gear just fine. When I do decide to rev it the car goes like a bat out of hell. One thing I have noticed is that it starts to drop off just the tiniest bit right before the TVIS kicks in, once it does though it takes right off again. I'm going to look into amybe finding a way to adjust when the TVIS kicks in, I'll post it when I figure something out.

    And yeah, there is no replacing of any bottom end components. Block, crank, rods pistons...they're all the originals from the 5SFE.

  23. #23

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    so in your opinion how much time/money would it be to do this conversion on an existing 5SFE? exactly what parts do you need?

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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by balagast
    so in your opinion how much time/money would it be to do this conversion on an existing 5SFE? exactly what parts do you need?
    Well, the problem with doing this with a car that already has a 5SFE is that you would have to change the whole top end. You would need the 3SGE head, 3SGE intake and exhaust manifolds, 3SGE electronics (injectors, VSV's, etc.), 3SGE wiring harness and 3SGE ECU. It's still entirely possible to do though. If you have access to a donor car, here's what I would do....

    DONOR CAR
    -Disconnect the wiring harness from the ECU.
    -Remove ECU
    -Unbolt the boot for the firewall pass-through and pull the harness into the engine compartment.
    -Disconnect the harness from anything that is staying in the car
    -Remove the timing belt
    -Remove the valve covers
    -Remove the head with the intake, exhaust, and wiring still attached

    YOUR CAR
    -Repeat the above procedure with your car, then install the parts from the donor 3SGE car.
    -You will need a good wiring diagram for both cars showing the pin placement for the ECU plugs, then you'll need to make sure all the wires are in the right places for the ECU wiring that DOES NOT go to the motor, ie. dash lights, guages, etc.
    -Work out the bugs!

    While I think this is entirely possible, it will definately be alot more work and time consuming than what I did, and I'm not sure how much better a 5S"GE" would be than a 5SFE...

  25. #25

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    Also, to answer another question before it comes up again....

    How did you deal with the timming belt on your swap? would you think i could do the same with my 3sfe? just find a3sge head and (mod) bolts it to my block and it would work? im a tad confused but i wanna follow in your footsteps as ive wanted to do this for a while now. Please help
    OK, since your car is already equiped with a 3SFE, it will take a bit more work for your aplication. Almost all of the computer controls are attached to the head/intake manifold/exhaust manifold. The 3SFE intake and exhaust manifolds will not bolt up to the 3SGE head, so you would need 3SGE intake and exhaust manifolds, as well as all of the electronics, wiring harness, and ECU. While it can be done, it's not nearly as simple as what I did.

    Also, the 3SFE and 3SGE block have identical bore and stroke, but the 3SFE uses weaker internals and have larger valve reliefs in the pistons. So, you wouldn't gain any displacement and I'm pretty sure you would lose some compression.

    Overall, if you're gonna get a 3SGE head, intake, exhaust, wiring, and ECU, you might as well get the block also since it is built much better and will handle a moderate amount of added power (eg. nitrous, turbo).

    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of this. I'm still relatively new to Toyotas....

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