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  1. #1
    CelicaTech Supporter TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light
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    Default Maybe OT, but something I've been thinking about...

    If this isn't appropriate, please move or delete...

    How does the 3sgte stack up against other 4cyls from other manufacturers? I thinking specifically of engines like the h22 and k series from Honda, but I'm sure there are others. These engines are upwards of 200 hp N/A, while the 3sgte is at 14 psi boosted to make the same numbers. I know its a good engine nonetheless, but...

    I dunno what I'm really getting at, it was just something I was thinking about.

    TNO

  2. #2
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco angryyoungnpoor is on a distinguished road

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    Well, that 200 hp only brings them around 150 torque, maybe. Stock internals on a 3sgte can bring you over 400.. as far as an h22 or b16.. I don't think the compression ratio would allow the pistons to handle the boost needed to make over 400 hp.

    3sgte isn't the best engine out there, but it is damn cool.
    1990 White GTS/W swap ///// 1992 RED GT

  3. #3

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    a usdm 3sgte is rated at 200hp at around 11psi.
    a jdm 3sgte is 225hp at 11psi becuase of a better ecu tune.
    most swapers keep their boost between 12-15psi and add on exhaust and intercooler mods for even more power

    im not really an expert on honda motors, but from what ive seen, they alwasy lack in torque, like ayp said.

    the only thing that really holds the 3sgte back, is the stock turbo. there are many turbo kits that you can bolt on and run a realiable 2-400 hp with the proper supporting mods. its really a strong motor with lots of potential .

    if the 2 were going to race, i would put my money on a celica, with a basic 3sgte swap
    Last edited by Lagos; 12-13-2005 at 05:10 AM.
    Boosted. Tuned. Ready.

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  4. #4
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco angryyoungnpoor is on a distinguished road

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    yeah, you also got put the factor of weight vs. power. That's a huge factor with honda. They're light as poo.
    1990 White GTS/W swap ///// 1992 RED GT

  5. #5

    Default

    Light they are, but it's an N/A 4Cyl making 200HP.. that = HIGH rev's.. and that = Time.. by the that time a 3SGTE will of hit boost and be putting down real numbers. Big difference between N/A HP and boosted HP. Specially in the 4cyl class.

    Now it's a diff story with like a V8 that hits max output at maybe 3-4K on some engines.... Either way, nothing stacks to the seat slamming feeling of boost and that wicked blow off sound!

  6. #6

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    H22 is actually a damn good engine. People are realizing more hp and torque than most 3SGTEs out there on those engines. 700, 800, even 900 hp isnt unheard of. The reason being is their aftermarket totally KILLS ours and the amount of honda tuners FAR exceeds the Toyota tuners. Their tuning is easy (you can do your own romtune for about 100 bux or so), and theres just so much more you can do with them on a daily basis because of the popularity. The K series engines I think are relatively weak, but the H22 is a damn good engine. Closed deck design makes it very boost friendly, and even in NA form makes about 160 or so torque. Add boost to it and it starts to make more torque quicker. Drop the compression ratio a point or so and you have yourself a wicked VE that can take some boost. Couple that VE with a good set of valve springs that can take revs, an awesome rod ratio that LOVES to rev, and a stock 8k rpm redline that it can do all day long means it will have a kickass powerband with the right turbo. The only downside to an H22 is its still aluminum. 300whp reliably on an H22 takes roughly 3k in mods depending on what turbo kit and intercooler you do, etc. Theres alot to turboing a honda, but theres a SHITLOAD of kits available, and there is alot of info available to do it yourself as well. Downside to an H22 is its a relatively expensive engine. Expect to pay around 1500-2500 just for the swap (might be more depending on what car youre putting it in), and then whatever else you spend on turboing the thing. High HP on this engine means you have to replace internals, but the money you save on tuning and other things means you can still hang with a 3SGTE in terms of high HP applications IMO.

    Your commonly known 3SGTE is a 2nd gen. Its what most people on here have. 2nd gen 3SGTEs suffer quite a few setbacks. First of which is its ECU. The ECU on this thing sucks. Hard and expensive as hell to tune (have to solder on a daughterboard and theres only 1 program that works to tune them and its expensive as sin). Right behind the ECU is the shitty AFM. It isnt restrictive in airflow, but its calculation ratio and resolution sucks, because its a flapper door and it isnt very precise at all. Another setback with the 2nd gen 3SGTE is the intake manifold. For a completely stock car its a gem. Once you start upping the boost and raising the VE of the engine it starts to be a piece of shit. Because its a center feed, number 2 and 3 run lean, number 4 runs way rich, and number 1 runs mildly rich. Its a real gem lemme tell ya. Theres also a point where the TVIS starts to become a hassle and has to be removed. Then theres the valves, the shim design is reliable and makes it easy to adjust them, but if you want to start upping the redline (we all know that the longer we can retain our powerband and keep the RPM and torque curves going northeast on a dyno, the more power we are going to make ultimately), you have to immediately swap out the valve springs, retainers, and switch to a shimless bucket design (you can get the parts from a 1zzfe or a 3rd gen 3sgte head). The stock turbo is great for the car in stock form but its a piece of shit too, so you have to upgrade that. Seems like everything on the engine was engineered for longevity if you remain stock. On a stock 2nd gen 3SGTE you can see roughly 270-300 hp with the right tuning on the right turbo. (using a fuel pressure regulator to increase injector output. 440s max out at 270whp. With an FPR you can increase the pressure and make them squirt for about 300 if youre ballsy.. But you will be at 100 percent injector duty cycle which they say isnt really good cause eventually something fails and if it does and you run lean... POP). For 300 reliable hp on a 2nd gen 3SGTE it will cost you roughly 4k in mods to get. On the plus side the 2nd gen 3SGTE is a cheap engine and theres ALOT of aftermarket support for it in the states. You can find one with full wiring harness, and everything youd need to swap for 1k-2k and a clip coming in at 1500-2500. You can make higher hp on a stock bottom end than any stock honda engine, but you have to replace a bunch of stuff on the top end that kind of negates the cost thing.

    Lets take a look at the 3rd gen 3SGTE. They fixed the crappy afm problem so it uses a 2.5 bar map sensor in its speed density system. They fixed the crappy turbo problem so the car pulls all the way to redline. They provided a better celing for boost by lowering the compression ratio. They gave us more room to grow by adding a 55 mm throttle body and 540cc injectors. They still fuck us with the center feed intake manifold, but they increase the size of the manifold itself so it flows more air. They fixed some problems in the valvetrain by moving to a shimless bucket design. They took out TVIS but slightly narrowed the head ports to increase port velocity which increases lowe end torque (what TVIS was set out to do). What they did to screw us on was the block casting. There is a well known issue in some of them that have thin cylinder walls between no2 and no3 cylinders. They crack on BPU engines. Its happened quite a few times on people. The 2nd gen blocks seem to be casted better. Watch out for earlier model 3rd gen 3SGTEs for that one reason. On a stock 3rd gen 3SGTE you can see about 330-350 hp with the right tuning (again, using a fuel pressure regulator to increase injector output. 540s max out around 330whp. With an FPR you can increase the pressure and make them squirt for about 350 if youre ballsy.. But you will be at 100 percent injector duty cycle which they say isnt really good cause eventually something fails and if it does and you run lean... POP). For a reliable 300 hp on a 3rd gen 3SGTE it will cost you roughly 2000-3000 in mods to get (depends on your turbo kit you chose). Anything past that gets real expensive as you will have to get a standalone as there are no romtunes available for this ECU and your MAP setup cant retune for your mods, so it becomes your bottleneck. Downside to a 3rd gen 3SGTE is the overall cost. Its expensive. Its also hard to find parts for here in the states even though some people on the MR2 board have compiled a compatibility sheet between the toyota motors and theres quite a few USDM parts that work on a 3rd gen 3SGTE. Expect to pay 2000-3000 for just a engine, and wiring harness with ECU thats ready to swap, and expect to pay 3000-4000 for a full clip. Upside to this is it costs less money to make more power once you get there, and some people swear by a 3rd gen over a 2nd gen because of the response, sound, and overall feel of the engine. I will say myself that Borinals Gen3 feels alot smoother and more responsive than mine, however mine has a better torque curve down low. I consistently outspool him and pull from him initially, but he ALWAYS gets me on the top end of the rev range. Something to think about. Same as a 2nd gen. Stock bottom end is good for over 400hp (unless you get one with a casting flaw that I described above), but you have to replace other things to get there. Tuning will still cost you ALOT.

    Lets not forget the ever popular hybrid toyota engine, the 5SGTE. The 2.1 or 2.2 stroker (depending on what crank and set of rods you use, you could get either one) that addresses alot of issues people have with the stock engines. Id have to say the ultimate toyota 4 banger would be a ported out 3rd gen head on a late model 5S block, with the 3rd gen electronics and wiring harness, ran on a garrett ball bearing GT series turbo, using a standalone and an aftermarket tubular exhaust manifold and indivudial throttle bodies (yes theres people working on ITBs for the 3S head). MMM YUM but LOTS of money.

    This is just info that Ive read, learned, seen, etc. It might contain stuff that is inaccurate or biased, but its how I feel about the subject. Hopefully this helps you in your comparison.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  7. #7
    CelicaTech Supporter TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light
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    Default

    Ehh I dunno, those K series are pretty wicked...I've heard of people making 300 hp N/A, which is just insane on a 4cyl. Though I have heard of people throwing rods (I think....?) in them with higher hp applications.

    TNO

  8. #8

    Default

    I think the highest rated K Series over at clubRSX has like 240whp. Go over there and do a search, find out what it is. Im pretty sure it isnt 300whp.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  9. #9
    CelicaTech Supporter TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light
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    Ok so I was wrong. Sue me...

    Eh...I dunno. I don't know all the details about the K series. I just know over at Honda-tech a lot of the guys there were hailing it as a step above the B-series motors, just like the B-series are considered a step above the D-series, etc.

    TNO

  10. #10

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    It might be, the people who are doing things with that engine are the pioneers. The B series engines are outdated, but there is a tried and true formula to making power on them. Same goes for the H22, its an outdated platform in terms of technology, but still a good platform.

    Since the Kseries is still being pioneered and people are still playing with the best ways to do things, lets talk more about the B or H series engines. I specifically like the H22 just because its the only engine in their lineup that is closed deck. The rest are all open deck.

    Nuke was telling me he has a dyno of an H23 with K20 cams in it and its making like 230 whp NA. Thats pretty nutz too.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  11. #11

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    Wow, I typed up that huge response and not much activity in this thread.

    Come on people.
    2000 Absolute Red Celica GTS 6-Spd
    1991 Crimson Red MR2 Turbo


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  12. #12
    Senior Member Disco Dan is on a distinguished road Disco Dan's Avatar

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    Default

    Have patience, man. Most people are still reading your novel. Plus you've gotta figure in bathroom and meal breaks. Give them a few days to get through it all. They'll catch up eventually...

  13. #13

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    Yeah, that's a long ass response.
    Good though.
    Just wanted to point out one thing. The 3rd g 3SGTE has shim under bucket, not shimless.
    And I was under the impression the 2nd g in man actually flowed more with the T-VIS gutted.

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  14. #14
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco angryyoungnpoor is on a distinguished road

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    Plus the fact that most people on here dislike honda. I know a few people around the area with si's or with swaps. They are nice. They don't make the power til after 6500-ish. Vtak.
    1990 White GTS/W swap ///// 1992 RED GT

  15. #15
    CelicaTech Supporter TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light TheNefariousOne is a glorious beacon of light
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    Default

    Wait, Luni, was that long ass post here before? I don't remember it heh.

    It seems that it would make sense with the parts used on the 3sgte. It's a rally engine so its gonna be getting the balls beat off it, so reliability is probably a large concern. Basically it seems like once you remove several bottlenecks, you can reallly open the engine up to higher power.

    TNO
    Last edited by TheNefariousOne; 12-16-2005 at 08:25 PM.

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