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Thread: JIC Magic SA-1

  1. #1

    Default JIC Magic SA-1

    Since Tein only supports the ST185, I've been looking closely at getting the SA-1's. Are there any other companys who offer a full coil over system for ST184s? Has anyone here had experience with the JIC setup?

  2. #2

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    I haven't had experience with them, but the Honda guys over at honda-tech.com have had some bad experiences with quality and customer service from JIC.
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  3. #3

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    why can't we use the teins on the st184's, wouldn't they just have a stiffer suspension because the alltrac is heavier, should be the exact same mounting points.
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  4. #4

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    Nope. The rear knuckle mounts are slightly different.
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  5. #5
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    I'm in the process of tracking down aftermarket suspensions in Japan... hopefully I'll be able to find something better than JICs or Teins... if not... I'll cry.

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
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  6. #6

    Default

    please let us know if you find anything

  7. #7

    Default

    can I just re-weld the rear nuckle mounts to where it should be on the st184's
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  8. #8
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    I want to start a new thread for this...

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  9. #9
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    Sucks that JIC doesnt make the FL2A2's for our celica, those would rock

    As far as the SA2, I would prefer to have the height adjustable at the steering knuckle level, versus the spring perch. 7kg/5kg seems a little wack to me? I'll have to look at Adrian's post again to compare...

    I rode in a 8/4kb setup today in an alltrac, and man was that fun

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  10. #10
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    alltrac = lot heavier... but I don't understand why the rear is more on the ST184...

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
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  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 3sgte@daspeedof
    can I just re-weld the rear nuckle mounts to where it should be on the st184's
    Why all that work for a mediocre product? At that point you may as well save your money, and put more effort in for a set of KONIs with GCs and end up with better results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean
    Sucks that JIC doesnt make the FL2A2's for our celica, those would rock

    As far as the SA2, I would prefer to have the height adjustable at the steering knuckle level, versus the spring perch. 7kg/5kg seems a little wack to me? I'll have to look at Adrian's post again to compare...

    I rode in a 8/4kb setup today in an alltrac, and man was that fun
    The setup is probably intended more for street cars that don't actually race. It's a safe setup that will probably understeer at the limit which is good for folks that are clueless. However, it will ride nicer with the softer springs out back and an upgraded rear sway bar may compliment the setup nicely.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Avgerinos
    Why all that work for a mediocre product? At that point you may as well save your money, and put more effort in for a set of KONIs with GCs and end up with better results.
    Why would you say that? What about the Tein SS setup is mediorce? I'll have to do some more searching....

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  13. #13

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    Tein SS setup was what I wanted to go with to begin with, I want a nice set up, that will work for a daily drive, but beable to tune into it when I do take it to the stip.

    And yes I wanted full coilovers, cuse I don't have the time to do the same suspension that u did Adrian and I don't even know how well ur setup would work for me
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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean
    Why would you say that? What about the Tein SS setup is mediorce? I'll have to do some more searching....
    When I reference quality I am refering to the damper design exclusively and not the pretty JDM-yo! accessories affixed to them like electronic adjusters, anodized perches, etc. A good portion of lower end (sub $2000) coilover kits from east Asia control the damping with a needle valve. To adjust the damping the needle is moved closer or further from the hole. This design, while cheap, has a couple of drawbacks:

    1) Due to the design you won't feel a difference until the hole is almost completely closed up. (i.e. only the last few "clicks" make a real difference in how the suspension feels)

    2) Linear valving. This means that the damping will increase equally by the increase in force applied. The alternative, which has been used in offroad racing for years, is what's called digressive valving. Effectively, this means that at high speed cycles (i.e. hitting a pothole or bumps in the road), the damping is minimal, but at low speeds (i.e. taking a sharp turn, hitting the brakes, etc.), the damping is much higher. This results in a better ride quality on the street but with better damping for taking the turns.

    The best way to see this is to look at shock dyno graphs that plot force vs velocity and check out the differences. For now, this thread over at Honda-tech.com is the best resource for comparisons:

    http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1104049

    If anyone is interested I can try to put together a complete thread on WTF all that stuff means and how it will affect the performance of your car.
    "The best nut you can tighten is the one behind the wheel."
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Avgerinos
    When I reference quality I am refering to the damper design exclusively and not the pretty JDM-yo!
    Please dont confuse my Tein interest with hype versus functionality.



    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Avgerinos
    coilover kits from east Asia control the damping with a needle valve.
    Do you have any further information about Tein's specifically? Is Tein guilty of this subpar valving system as well? Without generalizing, are the valves inferior in design for Tein SS system? Do you have any links to pictures or cross sections of dampers from Tein, with comparison to Koni? I'm not "calling you out" so please do not confuse this, I'm merely picking your packed brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Avgerinos
    1) Due to the design you won't feel a difference until the hole is almost completely closed up. (i.e. only the last few "clicks" make a real difference in how the suspension feels)
    Tein's system does not seem to be included in those "Dyno's". Or perhaps Tein's uses componets from KYB, KONI, or some other company, so I'm perhaps overlooking it? I assume your getting at the fact that Tein does not incorporate digress valving in their damper's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Avgerinos
    2) Linear valving. This means that the damping will increase equally by the increase in force applied. The alternative, which has been used in offroad racing for years, is what's called digressive valving. Effectively, this means that at high speed cycles (i.e. hitting a pothole or bumps in the road), the damping is minimal, but at low speeds (i.e. taking a sharp turn, hitting the brakes, etc.), the damping is much higher. This results in a better ride quality on the street but with better damping for taking the turns.
    This makes a lot of sense to me, so again, does the Tein SS system fall into this fault? So most likely you should expect an uncomfortable daily driver at highway speeds where the struts are going to be subject to high velocity forces, and the strut will compensate with an equal and opposite reaction, a vulgar opposing force.

    Where I get confused, is the fact that the rebound is what is actually adjusted. By controlling the rate of expansion, I can see how this will effect ride quality, but I do not understand why compression is not effected and taken into consideration with the other half of the dampening system. Understand what I'm asking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Avgerinos
    The best way to see this is to look at shock dyno graphs that plot force vs velocity and check out the differences. For now, this thread over at Honda-tech.com is the best resource for comparisons:

    http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1104049

    If anyone is interested I can try to put together a complete thread on WTF all that stuff means and how it will affect the performance of your car.
    Its all pretty clear. Its unfortunate that we have minimal choices in the strut world. If you could provide me with some Tein damper dyno's that would be wonderful, or at least hold my hand to the correct Tein Dyno plot (maybe i missed it ). I couldnt even find on the Tein site if the dampers were a monotube, or twin tube design, hmmm....


    So, your best scenario alternative is to match up your own strut/spring combo. I need to read again and again on how to match spring rates with dampening rates, as well as your threads on these mutant coilovers

    Im still considering if the valve issue is enough to deter me from buying Tein's. If they're still going to handle well at low speeds in comparison to other struts, then I've accomplished one major goal already.

    You see, I have virtually no functional struts on my car, and its been this way for many many miles. Any type of highway dampening would be far superior to what I currently have. After riding in that alltrac yesterday (also had the whiteline rear swaybar) I'm very very hooked on these. We went down this bumpy potholed filled road, and the damn thing felt like an escalade. It took the bumps with ease at considerable speeds, and left the driver to do his job, steer.
    Last edited by Sean; 11-21-2005 at 09:30 PM.

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  16. #16

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    ^^ I accually understood what you mean, and I'm looking for the same answers
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  17. #17
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    Ok, to give you an idea, try DRIVING a car that has Teins and compare it to a car that's got a good suspension... IE: HKS Hypermax or something to that effect. You'll notice an immediate difference. Tein is more for the street (which is fine, and they do great for that) but aren't really meant for the track. A track suspension is what I'm looking for. If I can find some HKS or Olie suspensions for my car I'd be set. I'm gonna start looking now as a matter of fact.

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    Originally Posted by MCcelica
    Joey wins this thread.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoreanJoey
    Ok, to give you an idea, try DRIVING a car that has Teins and compare it to a car that's got a good suspension... IE: HKS Hypermax or something to that effect. You'll notice an immediate difference. Tein is more for the street (which is fine, and they do great for that) but aren't really meant for the track. A track suspension is what I'm looking for. If I can find some HKS or Olie suspensions for my car I'd be set. I'm gonna start looking now as a matter of fact.
    You've gotta be kidding me? How are they not capable of handling the track? Thats their main focal point.

    If anything, there great for the track, but may lack as a daily driver.

    I'm going to use my google friend and see what I can come up with...
    Last edited by Sean; 11-22-2005 at 07:15 AM.

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  19. #19
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    Found this info at probe talk, including a EXTENSIVE review by a very credible ex Roush test driver....

    http://forums.probetalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1245
    http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701174525

    It seems to me the valve's are not an issue by his impressions.

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  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean
    Please dont confuse my Tein interest with hype versus functionality.





    Do you have any further information about Tein's specifically? Is Tein guilty of this subpar valving system as well? Without generalizing, are the valves inferior in design for Tein SS system? Do you have any links to pictures or cross sections of dampers from Tein, with comparison to Koni? I'm not "calling you out" so please do not confuse this, I'm merely picking your packed brain



    Tein's system does not seem to be included in those "Dyno's". Or perhaps Tein's uses componets from KYB, KONI, or some other company, so I'm perhaps overlooking it? I assume your getting at the fact that Tein does not incorporate digress valving in their damper's?



    This makes a lot of sense to me, so again, does the Tein SS system fall into this fault? So most likely you should expect an uncomfortable daily driver at highway speeds where the struts are going to be subject to high velocity forces, and the strut will compensate with an equal and opposite reaction, a vulgar opposing force.

    Where I get confused, is the fact that the rebound is what is actually adjusted. By controlling the rate of expansion, I can see how this will effect ride quality, but I do not understand why compression is not effected and taken into consideration with the other half of the dampening system. Understand what I'm asking?



    Its all pretty clear. Its unfortunate that we have minimal choices in the strut world. If you could provide me with some Tein damper dyno's that would be wonderful, or at least hold my hand to the correct Tein Dyno plot (maybe i missed it ). I couldnt even find on the Tein site if the dampers were a monotube, or twin tube design, hmmm....


    So, your best scenario alternative is to match up your own strut/spring combo. I need to read again and again on how to match spring rates with dampening rates, as well as your threads on these mutant coilovers

    Im still considering if the valve issue is enough to deter me from buying Tein's. If they're still going to handle well at low speeds in comparison to other struts, then I've accomplished one major goal already.

    You see, I have virtually no functional struts on my car, and its been this way for many many miles. Any type of highway dampening would be far superior to what I currently have. After riding in that alltrac yesterday (also had the whiteline rear swaybar) I'm very very hooked on these. We went down this bumpy potholed filled road, and the damn thing felt like an escalade. It took the bumps with ease at considerable speeds, and left the driver to do his job, steer.
    On that Honda website, there is a plot shown for the TEIN RA damper. That's about it.

    I'll get back to you with all your other questions, but I may not have time before Thanksgiving.


    Adrian
    "The best nut you can tighten is the one behind the wheel."
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  21. #21
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    Looking forward to it! Though, I must say that I'm pretty sold!

    This guy has no reason to be partial to Tein, so his review should not be biased. He also boats extensive track experience, so read this review!

    Posted by Racy Stacey:

    TEIN Driving Impressions
    Driving impressions
    Test Driver: Stacey B. ‘Racy-Stacey’ SCCA Club racer and former Roush test driver.
    Passenger: Mike P. Car owner of the test mule.
    Vehicle specs: ’93 Ford Probe GT – TEIN Super Street suspension
    Swaybar: Front: Stock Rear: 16mm Mazdaspeed Rear Stabilzer
    No Strut Tower Bars
    Alignment settings: FRONT [Zero Setting on Camber Plates] - (L) Camber -1.5 Caster +3.0 Toe +0.15 (R) Camber -1.5 Caster +3.3 Toe +0.17 REAR - (L) Camber -0.8 Toe +0.14 (R) Camber -0.8 Toe +0.12 Thrust Angle -0.01
    Dampening Setting: (16) Softest setting X4 corners
    Vehicle weight: 2 passengers 350 lbs – 25 lbs in luggage in hatch area.

    TEIN - TEST ONE

    Regular daily type driving
    1. Small bumps
    2. Cruising
    3. Driveway feel

    During the Regular driving test at the softest setting I rode as a passenger and drove the car. When I was a passenger I noticed right away, that even though the suspension dampening was on the softest setting. The car still had a little more feel of the road than what you could compare to from a sedan with a floated suspension. So quickly I equated that this suspension is not a stock replacement. So any comparisons to a soft riding suspension with minimal driver feedback could now be thrown out. Cruising was crisp and lane changes were very comfortable. When we entered a driveway with a 1” lip we felt the front tire crawl over the lip. So the feedback to the driver of road surfaces is precise. It wasn’t jarring or bouncing but you did feel it. Also unlike other cars I’ve ridden in. The car didn’t seem to twist and strain the suspension.

    TEIN – TEST TWO

    Canyon driving
    1. Transition
    2. Cornering hold
    3. Push / Rotate
    4. Braking/ acceleration
    5. Emergency avoidance


    Test two was performed in Turnboe Canyon. Due to time constraints we could only run through three settings of the suspensions overall dampening settings. (16),(10)&(6). The Super Street comes with 16 settings. 16 being the softest, and 1 being the tightest, we continued the test with the settings at all four corners at (16).

    The first turn was in a residential area and the speed was about 15 mph. I didn’t lift off the throttle; I rolled off about 20% throttle and made a quick 90 left-hander. The car responded very surprisingly flat. As I approached the end of mid corner I increased the throttle to pull the car the rest of the way and realized I didn’t need to. The car went through the corner very flat and this was at the softest setting. There was a little body roll but nothing outside of what you would suspect from a performance suspension. The next couple of turns were also at relatively low speed. So I have to say that at this setting the car is very forgiving. If the driver makes a mistake and has to react quickly and gets out of there comfort zone the car will assist them at low speeds. Steering input was also very nice and didn’t require any effort to turn the car.

    The next series of turns involved hills and corners. The first part of the canyon is very twisty and low speed. We took the first 4 corners in third gear. The posted speed 15mph. The car tracked very nicely through at 24. The next part was an ascending climb to a tight 90 deg turn. With our increased speed we found the car push a little and did a little throttle lift to bring the front traction back. The softness of the dampening we agreed was the cause of this. The next series of corners gave me the impression of driving a newer sedan with high technology in the suspension. The car flowed through the corners with my every steering input. I tested nose-dive and there was a very acceptable amount. The suspension hunched down and the felt planted. The suspension didn’t feel as if it bottomed out its travel, which was really nice since we were at such a soft setting. The front tires led the rear at this setting so the car would push and there wasn’t any rear end rotation. At the limits the car made the driver feel in control of the car and not a passenger.

    At the top of the mountain we decided to change the settings to the next level. (10). Here was started out very conservatively as before. Like before I wanted to work my way up to what the suspension had to offer. The first series of corners were all down hill. The slow speeds – 25-35 – kept everything very comfortable. The transition from left to right was very noticeably different from the previous setting. The car also drove over terrain differently. The cars suspension started to entice the driver to drive it a little hard or aggressively through the corners. The ability to whip the steering wheel around and stay hooked to the road was really nice. At this setting I made the comparison between the Tokico-Illumina / Eibach suspension. Perhaps (11) would get you a very similar feel. So at this level the car was now very familiar to drive. The handling had now grown up a bit. The car started carving though the canyon and was very forgiving again, but not so much as to let my mother drive it around like this. The straight line bumps in the road are now more pronounced and the increased steering response would be to much for her. Braking dive and acceleration were very nice again. At this level the car could be pushed but to achieve rear end rotation you needed either sharp throttle off cornering or ‘Fade’ type drive technique to get the rear end to rotate. The front end had more bite and didn’t push nearly as much at this setting.
    TEIN - Test three - Setting on (6)

    This next test involved setting all 4 corners once again the same at [6]. This is the hardest setting we felt we should try before the sun went down. Accelerating away from a dead stop felt just like the past couple of settings. As I increased the speed I started to rotate the steering very smoothly from left to right still traveling forward and at a slight upward angle at about 20 mph. I did this to get a feel of steering response at this setting. The response indicated that the car was steering much sharper than before. The first part of the canyon took us back again through the same section as we did at the (16) setting. But something happened this time that didn’t happen the last time. As we climbed up the hill and made the sweeping left hand turn. I felt the car skip off a bump in the road. The car must have skipped about 3 inches off the bump. A bump at the (16) setting that we never noticed before. Also at the top of the first part of the hill as it made a sharp right hand turn I noticed that the car was now starting to rotate through the turn. So the suspension now is so stiff that it bounces off bumps on the road and allows the rear end to rotate a little during a sharp right hand turn.

    Once I increased the speed a little I tried some avoidance steering inputs to see if the car was safe to toss around at this setting. The steering response was unbelievable. The sharpness gave me the confidence I needed. The next thing that I noticed was the over all feel of the car. It once again went through a metamorphosis. I felt like I was driving a track car. It did feel a lot more like Gavin’s autocross-prepped 1st gen MX-6 GT, but it didn’t handle like that car. Gavin’s setup is tuned to be very rear end happy. This was not, and the first 4 or 5 turns gave me inspiration to test at higher speeds. The first things I noticed was the acceleration and braking transitions were very smooth like the (10) setting before. The suspension was begging for sticky tires as I drove harder and harder through some of the very sharp 90 and 120 deg turns. At this setting you are certainly in a track/autocross car type setup, because the car reacts like it. ‘This is Fun‘ is what I said, as I slowed it down and thought about all the new sensations I was experiencing. Through some of the corners it was like you were riding a roller coaster. The car turned where you pointed it and did everything smoothly. I used a lot of left foot braking and other racing techniques to really push the limits of the tires. Through one turn I tested mid corner avoidance steering and the rear end reacted more responsive. I can force the rear end to rotate, but it didn’t want to do it on its own. Throttle rotational steering is great for people who like a neutral feeling car. With a little less front dampening or a little more rear dampening, it is very possible that you can really rotate the car through the turns with steering and throttle inputs.

    During the test we also noticed that we never bottomed out the suspension. The hills we drove had left and right hand turns that were flat and some went up hill and some went down hill and some s-curve transitions went from on-camber left to on camber right, that really tested the flexibility of the cars suspension to keep it planted to the ground through these back and fourth transitions.


    Overall Impression

    The TEIN Super Street suspension system can truly be called a performance suspension upgrade. Even at its softest setting you can feel your riding on a performance suspension. You wont get a Cadillac soft and cushy ride with this suspension. So if your looking for one this isn’t the one for you. But for the rest of us looking for a performance suspension this could be the last one you ever need to buy. The flexibility, the cost, the choice of springs, the low cost to replace/change springs, the ability to service the struts, the ability to tune the struts to your liking. All these things make the TEIN suspension stand out.

    The adjustability of the Super Street allows you to go from its lowest (softest) setting (16-13) – and achieve an entry level performance suspension feel with some very nice manners. Take the next step and tune it up a little to the mid range (12-8) and your now on par with most of performance suspension set-ups currently available. Tune it up even more to achieve some really track worthy characteristics (7-1). All this can be done within a few minutes, with a twist of a strut valve. This was one of the really exciting parts of the test. We realized that roughly every 4 clicks of adjustment, brings you a totally different feel. As if you just completely changed out your suspension for a different one. Set it to do what you want, and with the availability of the EDFC you can change on the fly. You can experience the full range of adjustability as you need it, or want it.

    To think that after so much time, to think that after so many years, so many other suspension systems or hack jobs. To think that finally we can get the suspension that we’ve always wanted - Is finally here, is very exciting! I was impressed; I was happily surprised at what the ride quality was like. I was happy, and felt satisfied that my enthusiasm and optimistic feelings of what TEIN was making for us would unfold. It is a great system, and to think that there are other more advanced systems in TEIN’s line up is just scary. After the long back and forth drive up and down the mountain we talked about the TEIN basic damper. If its even 20% of this system its going to be worth every dollar. Having a system specifically made for our cars is what sets this apart from anything else I’ve ridden in. In a few words – Versatile – Ease of adjustment – ride quality – and driver confidence.

    Thanks for reading.. "




    I'm pretty much sold! You cant be certain that the Tein RA's (unless you for a fact do know) are the same componets as the SS.

    If you could just answer one, quick question. What type of valves do the Tein SS use?
    Last edited by Sean; 11-22-2005 at 08:07 PM.

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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean
    Looking forward to it! Though, I must say that I'm pretty sold!

    This guy has no reason to be partial to Tein, so his review should not be biased. He also boats extensive track experience, so read this review!

    The problem with a driver review is that it's soley based on how the driver feels. You may not feel the same way as this guy, no matter how good a driver he is. How is his opinion more correct than your opinion?

    To answer your question directly regarding TEIN construction: I don't know.

    I'll try to find out though.

    Adrian
    "The best nut you can tighten is the one behind the wheel."
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  23. #23
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean's Avatar
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    I realize this, its all relative. A harsh ride for one person, may just be the kindest ride for another...

    I just want the best I can find, and I want to be sure of what im spending 1500 dollars on, ya know?

    Thanks again Adrian

    BTW: I also have emails out to GC, and Tein. I hope to hear back from them soon

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  24. #24

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    Just curious, what did you ask of Ground Control?

    Funny, I also e-mailed TEIN. Let's see what happens.

    Adrian
    "The best nut you can tighten is the one behind the wheel."
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  25. #25
    Ultimo Miembro Fantástico Gigantesco Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean has a brilliant future Sean's Avatar
    Sean has donated to the forums! Sean helped get Luni's MR2 back on the road! Sean helped bring Chaos back to the Dragon Sean helped KM replace his 5-year-old clutch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Avgerinos
    Just curious, what did you ask of Ground Control?

    Funny, I also e-mailed TEIN. Let's see what happens.

    Adrian
    I forget, let me look

    Woops, I meant JIC:
    Have a 1991 Celica GTS and I'm inquiring about coilovers. it appears you have a possible match with the SA1 series. Though, I would prefer the features, and the quality of the FL2A2's.

    There is quite a demand right now for coilovers for this market. Though, I have heard of some quality concerns from some honda-tech.com people. Can you address this?

    Can you find something to work with my car? Tein has a possible setup from the alltrac, I will have to alter the rears a bit, but whats new i guess....

    Sean

    And to Tein:
    Hello, my name is Sean, and I drive a 91 Toyota Celica GTS (sort of, with bits of mr2, Celica alltrac, and others spread throughout) that is in dire need of a suspension overhaul!

    Today, I had the pleasure of helping a buddy install some Tein SS on his 90 Celica Alltrac, what beautiful pieces these coil overs were! I examined, looked, scratched, looked, and really could not see any eye popping difference in the strut assembly between my GTS, and the Alltrac. So, why wont these awesome struts work on my car? Its gotta be just a minor, minor adjustment quirk to get these things to work? The only problem I see, is that its would be possible the rear spring rates would be too stiff for my rear end that lacks all of that heavy, slow you down drivetrain?

    Please Tein, please help us celica's out : ( I know a lot of custom fabricators, so im just thinking of buying some for an alltrac, and going from there....

    One last point, you guys are away that on the rear of the alltrac, the brake line holster interferes with any sway bar upgrade, correct?

    Sean





    I realize I'm not the most intelligent man, but I hope to at least stir some sort of response out of them. Get back to me Adrian on what they answer to you, it appears I didnt even ask the right question!

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