PDA

View Full Version : 20 valve swap



rzanology
06-28-2005, 04:56 PM
hey guys...need a lil advice here. I decided im going to spend the $800 and get the 20 valve in my 94. Which is better....black or silver top? Is this a fairly easy swap? Any thing special needs to be done?

96celica
06-28-2005, 05:19 PM
black top

"fairly easy" haha if you say that IMO your not even ready to swap

#1 if you have an ST then it will "drop right in" but thats only motor mount wise

putting the motor physically in is the easiest thing to do (a baby can literally do that)

where your issues are goin to be is wiring.....are you goin to do this on your own?
are you having a shop do it?

and i don't think 800$ is even close to enough

PLEASE DON"T BUY JUST A MOTOR

go out and find a clip........the whole front of a car
that will have everything you need in it for the swap

uncut wiring harness, ecu, mounts, motor, ect....

and go to www.6gc.net and talk to coomer

Akimbo
06-28-2005, 06:47 PM
black top

"fairly easy" haha if you say that IMO your not even ready to swap

#1 if you have an ST then it will "drop right in" but thats only motor mount wise

putting the motor physically in is the easiest thing to do (a baby can literally do that)

where your issues are goin to be is wiring.....are you goin to do this on your own?
are you having a shop do it?

and i don't think 800$ is even close to enough

PLEASE DON"T BUY JUST A MOTOR

go out and find a clip........the whole front of a car
that will have everything you need in it for the swap

uncut wiring harness, ecu, mounts, motor, ect....

and go to www.6gc.net and talk to coomer

qft :cool:

rzanology
06-28-2005, 07:36 PM
no im not doing it myself. my cousin will be the one doing the swap. he said the same thing. he said he just needs the manual for the 2 cars and a few weeks. What car did that engine come out off? I'm in nyc...i have no idea where i'd be able to find a clip...is there any sites out there? I'll head over to 6gc now and give coomer a shout.

96celica
06-28-2005, 07:51 PM
oh wow RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH

you are goin to need a good deal more time before considering a swap

i'm nice so you get a freebie here is a link or so to a few places to buy clips from

http://www.venus-auto.com/inventory/toyota/i-4a-ge%2020vbt.htm
~listed~
95 toyota-corolla ae111 4a-ge 20v (biack top) (complete motor + ecu + wire harness ) 170hp


http://www.jarcoinc.com/inventory/halfcuts/
~listed~
AE101 Levin - Includes 4A-GE Silvertop 20Valve Engine, 5-Speed Transmission, and Fuel Pump Yes
AE111 Levin - Includes 4A-GE 20-Valve Black Top Engine, 6-Speed Transmission, and Fuel Pump $2,450 No


see look i searched for like 5 min.......

rzanology
06-28-2005, 08:22 PM
the reason im thinking about it so sudden is a have a stock 7afe thats knocking. and i'd rather not put a stock engine back in. Thanks alot for the link.

just to be sure...the reason you are saying to go with the clip is because it will be a lot less headache when it comes to wiring? As well as i dont have to hunt down alot of hard to find parts....is this correct?

96celica
06-28-2005, 08:44 PM
no even with a clip your still in a heck of a lot with wiring

but the parts are there thats the key thing

brusk
06-28-2005, 09:56 PM
IMO I'd go with a small port "red top" 4A-GE instead. I've done two 20v swaps and really wasn't that impressed with them. Yeah it was alot better than the 1.8 but not quite worth the money that the customers put into them. What I've done with the wiring was either stand alone engine management since the ecu and AFM were not purchased with the engine and the other a front clip was used but I still needed to mix the two wiring harnesses to install in a 95 Corolla. Also needed new throttle cable, custom work to the power steering and AC for them to work. Even after the cost of the front clip there was an additional $2000 in labor and parts for everything else to work right. And if anything breaks your gonna have fun looking for some of the parts.

rzanology
06-28-2005, 10:19 PM
hmmmmmmm.....well then what do you guys suggest? I love the stock performance but i dont want to give those hondas ANY chance out there :)....So a 4a-gze looks better than the 20 valve? I noticed its alot cheaper as well....How difficult is that swap compared to the 20 valve?

rzanology
06-28-2005, 11:15 PM
okay so i just got done reading coomer's post

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1448

i think im going to go with the 4agze. Do you guys still recommend the whole engine clip?

Akimbo
06-28-2005, 11:25 PM
yes for any swap a whole clip is always recommended, except no substitute if you want it done right and have an easier time finding parts

Dr Tweak
06-29-2005, 05:28 AM
If you know you can get all the parts with the engine set, don't waste your money on the clip. Venus auto does a great job with their pulls, they are good about including everything.

The 20v is simpler to install, the 4AGZE has more power. If you're going to turbocharge, then get the silvertop or the GZE. For more info check out my website which goes over the swap options, http://www.phoenixtuning.com/

96celica
06-29-2005, 02:43 PM
dude i really don't think you should swap you really are goin to be over your head esp with 800$

if you want some more power then what you should do is take that 800$ and rebuild your 7afe then turbo.......

i'm goin to be 7afte soon :)

rzanology
06-29-2005, 03:02 PM
im with you on that 96...I just dropped it off at a mechanic to have the crank shaft replaced. I really don't want to headaches....Its costing me around 700 to get it done. I guess further down the line I'll turbo charge it and call it a day.

brusk
06-29-2005, 03:33 PM
Yeah the GZE is about the same kinda headache as the 20v. I'd just go with the small port 4A-GE from a 90-91 Corolla GTS JDM one puts out supposedly like 140HP. Apparently these take to mods really nice. Really comparable to a silvertop 20v which is slightly overrated at it's 160HP (more like 150) definately not as good as the blacktop 20v but the prices on the BT are overpriced and the BT isn't near as reliable, seen many pictures of the rods blowing through the block when it's ragged on to much. Check out club4ag.com on 4A-GE stuff.

96celica
06-29-2005, 03:40 PM
"im with you on that 96...I just dropped it off at a mechanic to have the crank shaft replaced. I really don't want to headaches....Its costing me around 700 to get it done. I guess further down the line I'll turbo charge it and call it a day."

hehe turbo charge it and call it a day i wish it was like that....its mroe like turbo charge it and call it in about a few months lol.....but if you need help on the 7afte stuff i can answer a good amount of questions or you can talk to NIK, kwanza and a few others here and 6gc

rzanology
06-29-2005, 04:10 PM
breaks my heart not to go with one of the big boys....but i'd rather have the car running smooth for a long period of time than run like and animal and then sit in a shop for a few months at a time.

You said i should rebuild the engine...what exactly does that include? What has to be done?

Also how many hp can i get from a turbo 7afe?

96celica
06-29-2005, 04:29 PM
it really depends how much you wanna spend and such

a rebuild for ME for my specific project means:
forged rods
custom forged pistons
new gaskets (any rebuild needs these)
new h2o pump
bore 1mm
new bearings
all new belts
new valves and valve seals
ect...

my goal for peak whp is goin to be between 200-220whp
at est. 12-15psi

rzanology
06-29-2005, 06:23 PM
wow...thats alot of work and time. I think i'll wait till i can save about 3 grand then go wild and come strong!

96celica
06-29-2005, 06:27 PM
yea my price list so far

intercooler-175$
turbo w/external wastegate -325$
bov - 90$

what i need

rods -715$
pistons-?$$$
piping-100$
boost controller- 150$
down pipe- 60$?
ect.. ect..

brusk
06-29-2005, 08:35 PM
don't forget a flywheel, clutch and balancing the assembly. I personally thing balancing is a must on anything thats rebuilt just because it makes it idle much smoother. Even aftermarket flywheels aren't balanced that good when the company says they are.

96celica
06-30-2005, 03:09 PM
its not really a necessity....
its more of a last thing you would do if you had the extra money too

Snafu
06-30-2005, 04:16 PM
Fuck that. I turbocharged my car for about 1400 bucks. If you're serious about turboharging any car, check out Homemadeturbo.com

There's so much information on that site, it's not even funny. Check it out, you won't be dissapointed.

I'm rocking the stock clutch, stock cast pistons, stock head. Don't mess with it if it isn't broken.

Drocay
06-30-2005, 05:02 PM
^ well u could do that just fine for around 6-8 psi.(at least internal wise)

but once it breaks then fix it

Snafu
06-30-2005, 05:09 PM
^ well u could do that just fine for around 6-8 psi.(at least internal wise)

but once it breaks then fix it

6-8 pounds? no way man.

I've seen D16's with the same compression as our cars hold 10 psi no problem. There's even a few guys running upwards of 15 psi. Pressure on here is running about 10, no?

96celica
06-30-2005, 05:56 PM
pressure is running 8 but creeps to 11 and runs lean

but why build it if it will break?

my setup should really never run into a "weak link" issue
better to build right the 1st time then half way and have to go back and redo

Snafu
06-30-2005, 06:20 PM
pressure is running 8 but creeps to 11 and runs lean

but why build it if it will break?

my setup should really never run into a "weak link" issue
better to build right the 1st time then half way and have to go back and redo


That's because his injectors are too small. If you're going to be running low boost, why do you get forge pistons, I don't understand that. There are guys who have run their 190K + engines, with the stock cast pistons for over two years without anything happening. For low boost (8 psi), stock stuff should be good. First thing I'd worry about would be a clutch.

96celica
07-01-2005, 04:59 PM
"running low boost"
see thats your issue dude nobody runs low boost anymore......
pressure is goin to run 11 once he does get larger injectors

"There are guys who have run their 190K + engines, with the stock cast pistons for over two years without anything happening."
i disagree with this cause yes it can hold up for 2+ years but you do run into issues along the way....

"First thing I'd worry about would be a clutch."

why worry about that when you already have it? ;)

and i'm using forged cause if you'd read there is no where close to me boosting "low"

you boost a 7afe to 12-15psi and you'll be begging for forged rods and pistons

Snafu
07-03-2005, 01:13 AM
"running low boost"


you boost a 7afe to 12-15psi and you'll be begging for forged rods and pistons

No shit assclown. How about you boost your rice-tastic car and then we'll talk.

Kwanza
07-03-2005, 04:34 AM
You guys sound pretty lame arguing and stuff... heh... heh...

20V is a great swap, either black or silver. Either or will be way stronger than a 7AFE/5SFE so go for it if you want it. You can do the swap with the bare essentials, which is basically the engine w/ attached accessories (alternator, PS, AC, dizzy, intake/exhaust manifolds), coil and ignitor, afm/map sensor (IAT sensor too if map)... then the ecu and various plugs (which can be sourced from many different toyotas). The rest of the wiring can be custom hacked. Even easier, just run a basic standalone. Megasquirt is a cheap and excellent choice.

In terms of what motor is better than what, the blacktop is a completely different beast than the silvertop. The blacktop has a much better head design, better combustion chamber design, larger throttles, higher compression, and has lighter internals, which is much better as an n/a motor. If you're looking to boost, either go for a 4AGZE or just turbo your exsisting engine. They're all good engines...

Dr Tweak
07-03-2005, 05:13 AM
You guys sound pretty lame arguing and stuff... heh... heh...

20V is a great swap, either black or silver. Either or will be way stronger than a 7AFE/5SFE so go for it if you want it. You can do the swap with the bare essentials, which is basically the engine w/ attached accessories (alternator, PS, AC, dizzy, intake/exhaust manifolds), coil and ignitor, afm/map sensor (IAT sensor too if map)... then the ecu and various plugs (which can be sourced from many different toyotas). The rest of the wiring can be custom hacked. Even easier, just run a basic standalone. Megasquirt is a cheap and excellent choice.

In terms of what motor is better than what, the blacktop is a completely different beast than the silvertop. The blacktop has a much better head design, better combustion chamber design, larger throttles, higher compression, and has lighter internals, which is much better as an n/a motor. If you're looking to boost, either go for a 4AGZE or just turbo your exsisting engine. They're all good engines...

Taking that thought a bit further, if you're stuck on a 20v then go with the silvertop, it's capable of low boost. But if you're going to rebuild ANYWAY, then you can get either the silvertop or blacktop since you'll be changing the internals out anyway, as Kwanza said, the head design of the blacktop is better. And either 20v head works very well with boost. If you want high boost but you don't want to rebuild at all, the the 4AGZE is the simple answer. So you've got plenty of options! But any way you stack it just remeber, if you want to play, you have to pay :bigthumbu

-Doc

rzanology
07-06-2005, 07:07 PM
I think you're right tweak. Looks like you gottah come out those pockets no matter what! Do you guys Know of any good turbo kits I can buy and call it a day?

I see 96 said no one runs low boost...but I think thats the way I want to go. I'm looking for enough power to shock a few people but still have the car drivable in traffic. Im also looking for the least amount of headaches and expensives. So i think that 8 pounds will do me nicely!

96celica
07-07-2005, 01:19 AM
nope not turbo kits for the 6th gen

imac
07-07-2005, 05:47 AM
nope not turbo kits for the 6th gen

if you look around there are turbo kits for 7afe corollas. ive never seen any for the celica either, but if a kit is the way you want to go then you could buy one built for the corolla. of course then you would need to modify the oil lines and intercooler piping and such...

imac
07-07-2005, 05:52 AM
http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/turbospec_toyota.html
http://www.turbo-kits.com/corolla_turbo_kits.html
http://www.prostreetonline.com/buy/turbo_specialties_extreme_turbo_kits/

those are a few links from a simple google search

but if i were you, i would suggest just putting together your own kit by doing some searching over a couple of months. that would give you time to plan it out correctly and get it for half the price of the pre made kits. those are damn expensive and you'd still need to modify them a good bit.

rzanology
07-07-2005, 02:59 PM
DAMN IT!!!! this isnt easy any way i go. :(

so you say the oil lines and custom piping are my main concern....

Snafu
07-07-2005, 06:07 PM
Oil lines and piping are very very easy.

I went to my buddy Steve (stealthmodeperformance.com) and got an oil feed kit and a firewall adapter kit.

I basically put a T where my stock oil pressure sending unit was. On one end I put the turbo feed line, and on the other I put the firwall kit. The firewall kit is basically a braided line that goes to a T. I put my aftermaket oil pressure sending unit and my stock one there. Works perfectly fine. The kit from Steve will also include the drain line which consists of a frain flange, fitting and hose. Very quality stuff, and Steve is a good guy.

As far as chargepiping, it really depends on how you run things.

I used a DSM T25 with the compressor on the passanger side. I used one U bend to hook up the turbo to the intercooler. After that, I used about 2 more bends and some straight pipe to bring the intercooler pipe right up next to the winshield washer fluid res, and then to the throttle body. I can post pics if you'd like.

alltracman78
07-07-2005, 07:09 PM
Pics would probably be nice....

Snafu
07-07-2005, 07:12 PM
Okay, one sec.

Snafu
07-07-2005, 07:41 PM
First off, here are the oil lines (This is a 4afe, but 7afe should be the same) -

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/Snafubmx234/Frontmountoilines003.jpg

This is a pic of the oil feed line. alternator bracket gets in the way of any pressure sending unit. This oil feed goes from the t, and the firwall line goes from the other end of the T.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/Snafubmx234/Frontmountoilines004.jpg

This is a pic of the firewall kit. I basically ziptied it to a plastic bracket to keep it from moving around. I used a little bracket to make sure the firewall line doesn't hit the timing belt or alternator belt.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/Snafubmx234/2ef62b92.jpg

Here is the Turbo to Intercooler pipe. I dropped it, that's why there's a dent in the side. It clears the front bumper no problem.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/Snafubmx234/Frontmountoilines006.jpg

Here is the IC to IM piece of the charge pipe. There is a 1G DSM BOV on there. It's a snug fit.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/Snafubmx234/Frontmountoilines007.jpg

And this is the clearance to the winshield washer fluid res. It's close, but it fits very nicely.

If you have any more questions or want more pics, let me know.

96celica
07-08-2005, 04:09 PM
500$=arais forged pistons
100$=HKS 2mm headgasket
720$=Pauter forged rods
300$=T3 Turbo (i'm selling one, brand new)(includes external wastegate)
175$=b16 turbo manifold
60$ =7afe exhaust flange
100$=intercooler piping
250$=intercooler
50$ =jgstools oil lines
120$=HKS SSQV style BOV (i have for sale)
250$=gauges (boost,egt,oil pressure)
200$=wide band 02
230$=s-afc 2
100$=turbo XS manual boost controller

2625$ total
and this setup could get you over 12psi
and more then 200whp

Colossus20v
07-08-2005, 11:20 PM
I think kwanza and Dr Tweak have said everything that needed to be said about the 20valve. Its fun yes, but it all depends on what you want out of your car. You seem to just want more power and therefore you should just turbo your 7afe. Evilspeeder did his and is running 10psi I think. So you could have some fun with that. Research and put together your own kit or whatever you want. 96celica is putting in the time and money and I think his will turn out quite well if he puts everything together. Goodluck to both of you.

Kimchi604
07-15-2005, 09:13 AM
I would personally do a silvertop because its quite cheaper

but if your looking for straight out power boost your current engine

i never worked on a celica or have owned one but i did own a 86 mr2 before and my options were 20V , 4agze , 4agte

for straight out power i would have gone 4agte for sure..