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View Full Version : Water Injection, who wants it :)?



Elliott
12-10-2004, 12:29 AM
Ahoy hoy,

I'm about to import 40 single and dual stage basic kits from www.coolingmist.com to sell locally (Melbourne).

ATM to buy a single stage kit from them it is $115 + 45 shipping, which equates to about $215...

But considering ill be importing $6,000 worth of gear, i should get a reasonable discount and ill be doing all the hard work for you. Hopefully i should be able to offer them for somemwhere under $200.

So would anyone be interested if i did so?

Elliott

Sigma
12-10-2004, 02:01 AM
so...what kinda benefits we talkin about if i DID get one? :)

Elliott
12-10-2004, 03:41 AM
Well i ran 19psi on a stock CT26 with no detonation :)

Aust162
12-10-2004, 07:51 AM
so the water injection lowers the intake temp or something??how hard are they to install?got pics?

also 19psi or 16psi cant be good for a stock ct26 or ur h/g..

Keyroo
12-11-2004, 12:41 AM
Hey guys, elliot and i have been having a few chats about this, and i've read a shit load on it, i was gonna make my own kit, but hmmm we'll see i could mod this one ot make it even better


the basics of it is that when u pump water into the intake manifold at high pressure through a tiny nozzle it atomises the water, now the whole idea of this is to cool the air, when u have millions of atomised particles of water floating around it acts like millions of miniture heat sinks, so the air then becomes super cooled,
the kit kicks in under boost so ur not sitting thre pumping water into ur engine on idle,

water injection has been used for years just never really got off the ground but it is such a good system and freakin cheap to run, this is a basic kit with everything u need to get it going, u know like sucking water out of ur windscreen washer bottle but if u want ot do it properly u can mount a big tank in the boot with float level metres ect and make it in a ncie box (i can see a better use for having a box in ur boot than a sub!)

on the english gt-4 site it has an article about it, the amount the water injection brings the intake temps down by is incredible, as much as 20 c and gains of 15 - 25 hp, which is pretty cool for a simple kit, all i suggest is that u put a float meter in the bottom of the tank that cuts the power to the pump on a relay so u dont 'forget to fill the tank and run the pump dry, coz thats really the only expensive part of the kit,

umm yeah anyway, elliot i'm extrememly keen but as of next week i'm unemployed and i still have 1500 owing on my trip to osaka and niseko in japan and i still have to pay for xmas

HUMBUG!

but i'll get back to u anyway :)

Matty

Keyroo
12-11-2004, 12:50 AM
oh yeah and this kit has a water solonoid which is cool my design didnt' have that, so u dont' suck in water on vacum, i don't think it would be a hooj issue but big enough where u have water in there when u dont' want to and possibly dry pipes that need a couple more seconds to kick in when the kit activates,, pruddy cool,,

dam u for getting these when i can't spend the money!!

Jaemus
12-11-2004, 01:17 AM
so what about side effects like corrosion and small amounts water ending up in the cylinder, which i think increases ur CR doesnt it? cos u cant compress water

sounds like a cool concept generally... if i had a turbo... lowering NA intake temps through a TVIS T/B probly wouldnt help

Keyroo
12-11-2004, 01:56 AM
well see u woudl'nt use the kit when ure engine is cold, the water is going in in a mist just before the throttle body, ur intake temps are too high for the water to condence and ur engine is definetly too hot for it to condence, also because ti's a mist and only kicking in at high boost everything is moving way too fast at way to high a temp for it to condence anywhere, or build up enough to corode, the water solonoid stops any leaks, 0% leak they recon so u can't have any water getting in there on idle, non boosting or when the engine aint going so no risk of corrosion,

my 2c :)


elliot ur the one selling them! looks like i'm ur sales rep here hahah

Matty :P

Keyroo
12-11-2004, 02:07 AM
actually i'll upload the dodgy ass plans i made the other night of my kit, it's pretty much the same but doesnn't have the water solonoid,

Keyroo
12-11-2004, 02:12 AM
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~keyroo/photos/waterinjection.jpg

with the water solonoid u won't need the one way valves, and yeah i know the float switches are upside down in teh diagram get over it!

this system also wasn't fused

but pretty much if i got elliots kit i'll be installing it with the same tank settup and a relay so it cuts out when teh water gets too low, the thing with the float levels in the tank is u will have to isolate them in a tube and also have some dividers in teh tanke with holes drilled in it so the water can't splash around and make ur water level lights flash up and down dramatically, fuck that would lpiss me of, there is a way to do it electronically so that there is a delay on the light but i'm not very good with electronics,,

oh and plz excuse the shitty diagram,,

Matty

-==L=a=N=c=E==-
12-11-2004, 02:12 AM
Put me down for one.

Keyroo
12-11-2004, 02:23 AM
fuck i wish i had hte money we could have a group instal day at my house haha
7 GT-4's parked in teh driveway and a about 7km of wire floating around haha

Elliott
12-11-2004, 03:35 AM
haha :)

Anyway ill do some pimping too.

basically water can soak up a ridiculous ammount of heat really really quickly, so not only does it cool down intake temperatures but in the cylinder during combustion it all evaporates to steam really quickly, absorbing a massive ammount of heat as it does so - hence stopping detonation.

Also, most people run a combination of alcohol and water, so 40/60 metho/water or 50/50 metho/water. metho has a crazily high octane rating and hence will technically physically increase the octane of the fuel (That said im not actually sure if the alcohol burns in the cylinder..)

With enough water you should never detonate, ever. Its like the super-effective mega-budget intercooler (just dont let the water run out). Expected gains are a 20-30 degree drop in intake temperatures, and around a 200 degree drop in combustion temperatures. Think of it as running 120 octane race fuel everywhere (litereally). The money you save on premium unleaded will be recouped in 6 months anyway :)

Elliott

Keyroo
12-11-2004, 03:37 AM
i'll still run optimax regardless ;)

Elliott
12-11-2004, 03:51 AM
It will be burning your money dude :)

J.F. Allen
12-11-2004, 04:42 AM
I'm lead to believe that the ST-205 GT4's had water injection installed, however like many features was "Disabled."

Sign me up for this kit for $200.
My Celica should be here late January, and complied soon there after, Just let me know when they arrive.

P.S: My 2 cents on Water injection.
As many have said previously, water has a Specific Heat Capacity (SHC) 4.184 J/g degreesC, while air has a SHC of 1.02. This is also 1 reason why Air liquid intercoolers are great at absorbing rapid rises in intake temp, also why liquid intercoolers are the standard for marine applications. The state change form liquid to vapour in the cylinder chamber also requires a large amount of energy, thus cooling intake temperatures. You may ask, what about the ideal Gas equation? Unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world, and due to the time of this operation this law can be largely forgotten about.

Also water injection can never "heat soak," as the cooling medium is constantly being replaced (consumed) and is never recycled. All in all, a worthy addition. And that's why im in.

P.P.S: where are all the smiles/emoticons?

ROME
12-11-2004, 05:26 AM
Even though I won't put it in for a while, I had no idea the kit was so cheap. So I'll buy one off ya now and see down the line what i do with it..

I have read somewhere that ya have to lean the mixture when using water injection... Or was it the other way around???

J.F. Allen
12-11-2004, 05:28 AM
For an extra $20 I'll grab a 100PSi pump.

Elliott
12-11-2004, 05:29 AM
You dont need to touch fuel mixtures, just plug it in and your away.

There is no disadvantage to installing the thing, even if your running low boost it will protect you against shitty fuel/random detonation and you should pull in a few HP just from the WI by itself.

Elliott

J.F. Allen
12-11-2004, 05:34 AM
Even though I won't put it in for a while, I had no idea the kit was so cheap. So I'll buy one off ya now and see down the line what i do with it..

I have read somewhere that ya have to lean the mixture when using water injection... Or was it the other way around???
Your correct, with water injection you can lean your mixture out closer to the ideal ratio of 13.0:1 (13 parts air to 1 part fuel,) as opposed to the usual ratio or ~11.5:1 or worse. This is aso how greater fuel economy is is aquired as less fuel is requied.

Elliott
12-11-2004, 05:50 AM
Yeah your right, you can lean out the mixture but only when your water injection is running. As it typically only is run on-boost (>8psi or similar), the fuel ecconomy benefit dosnt come in for day to day driving. That said, leaning out the mixture combined with timing advances are more common in N/A cars running water injection than forced induction. Why not just crank the boost up till you cant supply enough fuel and let it lean itself out :D

Elliott

Aust162
12-11-2004, 08:58 AM
Elliot. have u got any pictures to show us what the kits look like? i'm also more interested in seing pics of the kit installed on your car.
ta

Elliott
12-11-2004, 09:30 AM
My car has what i call a "Hackjob" water injection system, made up of a couple of sprinkler fittings and a $4 pump.

check out coolingmist.com for the kit pics. Its a really good quality SHURflow pump, worth $200 alone if you were to buy retail.

Elliott

ROME
12-11-2004, 11:45 AM
I'd like to find out the legal side of water injection. Last thing I need is another defect. But I can't see a problem with it myself. But the law is fucked, so does anyone know anything about it in that respect?

Elliott
12-11-2004, 11:51 AM
It dosn't increase emissions so i can't see a legal reason why it wouldn't be allowed.

Either way you can always put the injector on the underside of where the intercooler meets the throttle body, and stick the pump down in the engine bay somewhere so the entire system is invisible.

Elliott

ROME
12-11-2004, 11:49 PM
:woot:

Sigma
12-11-2004, 11:51 PM
im in :) put me down for one. when would this all be happening? as in gettin and sending? :) (cant wait to try instal the damn thing :thumbsdown: ) heheh

Elliott
12-12-2004, 02:43 AM
Well i will probably have to get them sent seamail.

If they go airmail it costs about 300% more for postage, hence the price would be somewhere in the vicinity of $215 as usual.

Its your call though guys, if your happy to pay $215-$220 ill get them air-freighted across, if you can wait 4-6 weeks you will save $30~.

Elliott

Elliott
12-12-2004, 02:51 AM
Also, dual stage kits are available at an addition of about $150, and 100psi pumps are available at an addition of about $70 (despite the difference only being $20 between pumps it costs $49 to upgrade from a 60psi to 100psi pump, that was coolingmists call not mine, im not trying to rip anyone off here).

ALL kits also come with water pressure monitors for no extra charge, thats $60 worth for free.

So it will be somewhere in the vicinity of $200 for single stage, $350 for dual stage, and $70 on top of either of those prices for a 100psi pump, with all kits having water pressure monitors included.

Just as a note, i'm importing 20 kits and selling to you guys basically at cost price - But just cos im doing it now dosnt mean i will continue to do so, ie if more people join i dont want to be importing these things for the rest of my life for free :} Basically after this first lot is imported i'll be selling them normally with a markup (probably $50 on single stage at $90 on dual stage per kit). Hence after ive sold the 5-10 kits here ill sell the rest off at an increased price to other people, and if more people turn around in 6 months and say i want cheapo water injection it will cost them more :> :wiggle:

Elliott

Keyroo
12-12-2004, 03:47 AM
water pressure guage eh,, noice, like i need another guage haha,, na ti's all cool nothing wrong with a bit of rice :P

Matty :)

Elliott
12-12-2004, 06:38 AM
Nah apparently its not a gauge, its like a light wired to a sensor, and if the water pressure drops (ie there is no water left or the pump fails), or the nozzle is clogged, the light will go out indicating your water injection system is fucked.

Shame it snot a gauge, gauges are cool.

Aust162
12-12-2004, 07:11 AM
Nah apparently its not a gauge, its like a light wired to a sensor, and if the water pressure drops (ie there is no water left or the pump fails), or the nozzle is clogged, the light will go out indicating your water injection system is fucked.


Thats a really good thing to have. i was worried about the water running out. put me down for one too if you can Elliot ;)i dont really mind waiting 4-6weeks either. i'm broke now becoz of christmas..

P.S we should setup that installation day too. :wiggle:

J.F. Allen
12-12-2004, 11:31 AM
I'm still in for $270 with 100PSi pump

Elliott
12-12-2004, 12:38 PM
So sea mail it is? Im ordering tuesday so we have to make a decision :D

Elliott

Sigma
12-12-2004, 02:53 PM
sea = good for me, then i will have the money. hehehhehe

Jaemus
12-13-2004, 03:32 AM
so, not that im really considering it, but im curious, will there be any advantage on an NA car? cos cooler intake temps are always good, i figure, but then again, NA intake temps arent real hot to start with. i can see the other problem being there is no boost by which to trigger the system, but a 4th gen TVIS actuator should do it, to start for high revs.


...leaning out the mixture combined with timing advances are more common in N/A cars running water injection than forced induction...
Elliott

this quote is the only reason why i bothered to ask at all... it implies water injection is used on NA cars

Elliott
12-13-2004, 04:36 AM
Your gains arent going to be anywhere near what they are on a forced induction car, but basically you can go ahead and increase ignition timing like crazy & lean out the mixture (assuming you have or can get some sort of fuel computer). If your car has an ECU that will adjust for fuel octane rating then you will get marginally better performance without doing anything.

You can either activate it by an rpm switch like TVIS, or WOT switch.

Elliott

Aust162
12-13-2004, 07:24 AM
yeah go sea mail :D 4-6weeks yeah?

Keyroo
12-13-2004, 08:36 AM
6-8 weeks hell even i might be able to afford it then hahah,,

3S-GTE_Man
12-13-2004, 12:00 PM
keyroo.. would i be wrong in saying that the diagarm should be changed... the power source for the low/empty switch sould gets it power from between the master switcha dn the relay???

Nezza :wiggle:

Keyroo
12-13-2004, 02:20 PM
quite possibly i'll have a look later, i think iwas drunk when i drew it hahah,,
oh wait, making a joke, some ppl do'nt like that hha,, sorry, jsut finished up a debate with what seems to be now an ex member

but anyway i'll ahve a gander, it really was scribled up quick, i didn't put much thought into it,

Matty

-==L=a=N=c=E==-
12-13-2004, 08:41 PM
There's an easier way to make a level indicator. Since we are dealing with water, you can use the properties of water (i.e. its conducting) to just run probes. The circuit wuoldn't be any more difficult. Or expensive for that matter.

ROME
12-14-2004, 06:39 AM
Yeap I'm so in on this.

Do I need a 100psi pump? and how much of a difference would duel stage WI make over the single?

Sigma
12-14-2004, 09:24 AM
yeh i wanna know about what is the bigger 100psi pump needed for and if we need it for any purpose?

Jaemus
12-14-2004, 10:53 AM
and on a scale of 1-10, is it worth the $200 for an NA
cos i think its ane awesome thing, and i love smart techy gizmos like that, but if its gonna be much less effective then its not worth the money for NA (however good value that may be)

but i like the idea of it helping with detonation cos my 3SGE still does abit even with newly reset timing and 98 octane - tho im sus that it has the right plugs

would dual stage make any difference either?

Elliott
12-14-2004, 03:50 PM
Dual stage is usefull if you have something like a dual stage boost controller, or you plan on measuring the water that goes into the system and want to tune it at different boost/rpm ranges.

the 100psi pump will flow more water (obviously) and achieve a smaller drop size, essentially making the system marginally more effective.

Elliott

Jaemus
12-15-2004, 02:36 AM
aha.
hmm, im still tempted. once you install the system, how easy is it to remove and install on a different car? cos this celi is my intermediate ride till bout feb-mar next year

ROME
12-15-2004, 04:43 AM
well in that case..... I'll get the 100psi pump.... and hmmm... I'll be getting a dual stage boost controller soon, so would it be in my best interest to get the duel WI system??

Who am I kidding.. Of course it is!! Give me the works!

:saythat:

Now if anyone finds a good water tank for the boot or better yet under the hood. Let us all know. How big does it need to be anyway? About 20L maybe? Do we know how much water gets used? As loang as I only have to refill about once a week (at max) when I check my oil.

-==L=a=N=c=E==-
12-15-2004, 07:04 AM
Put me down for 'THE WORKS' pack as well.

Rome, you want a reseviour, how about using the 7 litre reseviour that the washer bottle is. Its a monster! And keep in mind, your not going to empty that between each fuel stop. So whenever you stop for fuel, fill up the water. Easy enough task i'd think.

:arr:

Keyroo
12-15-2004, 07:38 AM
yeah i'm not super good with fancy electronics, but if there is a better way to do a float metre please suggest coz i'm shit with that, im' a mechanics man not electrics,

as much as ai really wanna play with this kit i'm not going to be able to get one due to money, plus i think i'm gonna have ot take the engine and gearbox out the gt next week and fix the bastard,, bah,, can't be stuffed

Matty

Elliott
12-15-2004, 01:29 PM
Yeah i reckon the best deal is to use your winscreen washer fluid tank, its a bigarse mofo. The injectors flow either 10 or 15 litres per hour, and considering you will jet the thing to come on over say 8psi, it will take a hell of a lot of on-boost to drain the tank. (At an absolute minimum i would say between fuel refills, but proabbly longer) Just dont inject detergent into your engine. If you used a 40/60 metho water combination it would work just as good on your windscreen :) And if you run straight water then... well how often do you use your washers :P i bet that detergent dosnt do shit anyway, people just buy it cos they think it works :>

To tell you the truth i really dont know to much about dual stage. I think the best decision is wait till ive ordered all the crap in and have final prices, then decide what you think is best.


Elliott

emicen
12-15-2004, 06:04 PM
Yeah i reckon the best deal is to use your winscreen washer fluid tank, its a bigarse mofo. The injectors flow either 10 or 15 litres per hour, and considering you will jet the thing to come on over say 8psi, it will take a hell of a lot of on-boost to drain the tank. (At an absolute minimum i would say between fuel refills, but proabbly longer) Just dont inject detergent into your engine. If you used a 40/60 metho water combination it would work just as good on your windscreen :) And if you run straight water then... well how often do you use your washers :P i bet that detergent dosnt do shit anyway, people just buy it cos they think it works :>

To tell you the truth i really dont know to much about dual stage. I think the best decision is wait till ive ordered all the crap in and have final prices, then decide what you think is best.


Elliott

Yeah, for reference, my cars fitted with a basic Aquamist kit set to activate at 10psi and it would take a full tank of absolute hammering to drain my WI tank which is a standard 5litre plastic fuel can mounted in the boot.

Sigma
12-16-2004, 07:03 AM
hmm ill prob get 100psi pump too :)

Classique71
12-16-2004, 07:57 AM
just a tech query - do you know how it compares to say the ERL setup's ?

I was going to look at this for my Gt4 - but this deals pretty attractive ..

in conjuction with the frontmount - id expect thiose charge temps to drop thru the floor over the standard topmount setup!

Keyroo
12-16-2004, 08:13 AM
u'll have icicles on ur intake manifold HAHA

emicen
12-16-2004, 09:35 AM
Having looked at both if I was to be installing water injection now, ie hadnt got it with the car, I'd be going for the stage 1 delux kit from coolingmist with the 100psi pump etc but using ERL's aquamist jets. Sure theres nothing wrong with the cooling mist one's, just the ERL ones look a lot more engineered.

Elliott
12-16-2004, 11:28 AM
According to the guy the droplet size should be similar to that of the aquamist system.

Elliott

ROME
12-16-2004, 11:49 AM
Hmm, now I'm just confusing myself.. If I find the time I'm gonna have to do some reading on the single stage unit to see it that's what I want.. But it should be.. Even with a dual stage boost controller, if the WI was set to kick in at eg: 5 psi then it would always kick in then regardless of how high the psi reaches. So high or low boost will still get water at 5 psi.

My concern with the dual stage is also, could it pump to much water in the TB? We only have small 2L in-line 4 engines, wouldn't a dual stage unit be for something more like 6's or even 8's? I think I have some reading to do.

The thing is with the tank is I still would like a cut off switch before the water ran out. Or even a warning light that flashes in my face set to half way so I will never run out of water. Kinda like Roo's high boost LED.

I'm sold on the 100psi pump, though. Just got to decide dual or single. I hate decisions.

ROME
12-16-2004, 12:59 PM
Just a site Elliott once showed me.. Good info in WI.

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

enjoy

emicen
12-16-2004, 02:20 PM
Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying theres anything wrong with the cooling mist injectors, just the aquamist ones look to me like a more polished product and I like the internal fluting of the injector barrel.

Elliott
12-16-2004, 02:37 PM
What you generally do is have a low-flowing injector for stage 1, and a high flowing injector for stage 2. As i said though, the difference is really quite minimal in terms of performance, but it you detonate low down (ie 2-3psi) you can have a very low flowing injector, and then one for 8+psi.

Alternativly if you have a high horsepower high boost car dual stage is nearly mandatory, as to flow enough water to stop detonation at 20+psi is going to be way more water than is needed at 8psi to stop detonation, hence you need two seprate nozzles which flow different ammounts, one for 8+psi and one for say 17+psi (basically the ammount of water your flowing at 8psi isnt going to stop detonation at 20+ hence you need dual stage).

Elliott

ROME
12-17-2004, 03:15 AM
Oooohhhhhhhh !!!!! I get it now. Dumb ass me :wink:

I found that anything boosting between 4 and 10 psi needs stage one, and anything above that needs stage two.

So In my case, stage one kicks in at 5psi + with a small nozzle, and then stage two kicks in at 10psi to 12psi wish a second small nozzle. With both nozzles running between 10 and 12psi. If I wanted to boost any higher I would use a bigger nozzle for my stage two.

So does dual stage come with two pressure sensors that can be set at different points to kick in at times I choose. Or are they pre set?

ROME
12-22-2004, 12:36 AM
Hmmm......

(in the words of Beej) "Sup?"

ROME
01-02-2005, 10:48 AM
ok guys? This thread has been dead for some time... Is this deal still going ahead? Are the units ordered and on their way? If not let me know cos I know where I can get them that are already landed for just a little more $$

Let me know, should I wait for your shipment Elliott or go with this guy I know?

Aust162
01-02-2005, 01:24 PM
yeah, i wouldn't mind knowing too.. do you need us to email u with our order or have you just ordered a bunch of stuff already??

kenshin
01-04-2005, 05:47 AM
hey when u think ur gettin them in i might be interested in one just to have around and bug me till i get the swap done

Elliott
01-04-2005, 02:11 PM
I'm being a lazy idiot - ive been away in QLD on holiday, i get back by the 8th then ill get back to you all about it - dw tho its all still going ahead.

Elliott

3sge
02-19-2005, 02:53 AM
Elliott is it to late to grab a kit?

-=DV=-
02-19-2005, 04:24 AM
i saw this thread a few weeks before my sx was gonna be back on the road and i figured with n/a it would be no use to me....but when i put a deposit on my gt4 the first thing i said to myself is "water injection is the first thing on the list"...so put me down for one of ur basic $200 kits...that is if ya can still get them...let me know......cheers

Elliott
02-20-2005, 01:50 PM
Just so you all know, this is still going to occur at some point - i havnt forgotten i have just had a fuckload of stuff to deal with (VCE ending, uni starting (30 contact hours) 2 jobs on the go over weekends and evenings, and an attempt at having free time) as well as not having the funds to purchase all the kits at once) - They will be ordered (i'm going to order them air mail, to much hassle to do sea mail). I'm thinking mid-march it should be all-go. Don't worry about it if you have changed your mind on purchases. When i get all the gear in i will give you final prices and if you want a kit you can snap one up then, celicatech guys getting first preference (at cost price to me) and ill go flog any kits i dont sell for a crazy markup to Wrx gangs.

Elliott

emicen
02-20-2005, 04:52 PM
Guys, I was just looking for the coolingmist website and its disappeared, anyone know the new url?

Elliott
02-20-2005, 09:26 PM
http://www.coolingmist.com/

J.F. Allen
02-21-2005, 01:25 PM
I'm still keen

The J-Spec GT4 of mine should be complied by then.

Cheers
Jordan

Team_Weall
02-22-2005, 01:19 AM
hey have they put the price up or something cause on the site the single stage kit is now $159

Elliott
02-22-2005, 05:19 AM
Yeah they have, but i havnt spoken to the guy for a while so i dunno if i will be hit with the price hike.

J.F. Allen
02-27-2005, 09:30 AM
Elliot my man. How's it going... Is it going? fill us in...

Jordan

Elliott
02-27-2005, 11:01 AM
Read the last post of the last page :0

Team_Weall
03-15-2005, 02:24 PM
anymore word on this? sorry to be pain

Elliott
03-17-2005, 02:28 AM
As soon as i have the money to order the kits i will :) Shoulnt be toooooo long ;P

Elliott