PDA

View Full Version : 91 GTS header



jman91
11-12-2017, 07:03 PM
I have searched everywhere online for a good quality header for my car and am unable to find one. Basically all I can find are eBay headers and I want something that will last and will have no issues installing. Are there good quality headers for this car out there?
Thanks

METDeath
11-13-2017, 12:12 PM
You get an OEM 3S-GE header imported for a true 4 to 2 to 1 exhaust manifold (two parts)... for like 5 HP gains. The problem is that you dump a ton of money into making a 5S-FE fast... and you could have just swapped to a better NA or turbo motor for the same or less and had more power.

jman91
11-14-2017, 04:39 AM
Okay thanks. I have looked into doing a swap and it is pretty big bucks from what I have found. And a lot of work. I'm looking into having the cams and head built. Ive got a pretty good idea on how much it will be to have the cams done and it's not a whole lot I just need to find a good machine shop that can advise me on the head. It's not going to be super fast but it'll be fun.

METDeath
11-15-2017, 07:09 PM
So just to clearly state:
Spending money on a 5S-FE motor is purely a labor of love as you won't get any major gains from any one thing

Read this: Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction (http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?35279-Getting-power-from-a-5SFE-without-forced-induction) it will give you an idea, but keep in mind it is an old post, so some manufacturers may have stopped making parts.

Just based on the mild build that's basically the cost of a 3S-GTE from a 205 or 215, so from a part cost stand point it just doesn't make much sense to dump money into 5S-FE performance rather than 3S-GTE.

4thgenceli
11-16-2017, 12:15 AM
So just to clearly state:
Spending money on a 5S-FE motor is purely a labor of love as you won't get any major gains from any one thing

Read this: Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction (http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?35279-Getting-power-from-a-5SFE-without-forced-induction) it will give you an idea, but keep in mind it is an old post, so some manufacturers may have stopped making parts.

Just based on the mild build that's basically the cost of a 3S-GTE from a 205 or 215, so from a part cost stand point it just doesn't make much sense to dump money into 5S-FE performance rather than 3S-GTE.


He's right. Either way you'll be doing a new intake and exhaust to help the head and cam work breath better right? A 3sgte swap isn't much more than the head/cam work. You can get a good ST215 motor for around $900 with ECU/Harness. A custom wire conversion is about 400. For about $2500 you'll have a running 3sgte (sometimes less if you get good deals on the stuff).

Murgatroy
11-16-2017, 03:52 AM
There are a few cats that have gone out of their way to make power on a 5SFE. One who doesn't post here that often and one that passed away, none who have posted in the last five years or so. Mr Turrari has gone to great lengths as a labor of love. Bruce eventually swapped a 3SGTE. I think at the end of the day no one has made more than 150BHP on one. And at that point they were well past the cost (not frustration) of a 3SGTE swap.

jman91
11-27-2017, 02:52 AM
Thank you for everyones input. I am aware that building the 5fse is not something that is done often, due to it being an engine with gas mileage in mind over performance. I was going to call a local toyota performance shop to try to get a better idea on pricing for the head and cam build. If anyone has a link to a detailed 3sgte swap with pricing I would like to read it because that is ultimately what I'd really like to do in the end. I figured if I could get about 160whp and spend about a $1000 that would be a decent gain for the money. It would be a hell of a lot better than what it makes now that's for sure lol. I bought this car not knowing the huge following behind them (I had always loved the way they looked and had been trying to find a 94-99gt model when I found this one) and was something that was just going to be a to and from work, get better gas mileage than my other car at the time. So you could say I am pleased that I have a good amount of options to make it a cool project.

pintoBC_3sgte
11-27-2017, 05:25 AM
I have some parts from my 5sfte build if you wanted to go that route. Also have stock cam shafts from a 91 gts I bought from a member to be re ground, but never got done

underscore
11-27-2017, 06:17 AM
Just putting a 3SGE head onto the 5SFE block might be a better option, I haven't looked into the details of it for several years but I know there's info on here somewhere about making a 5SGE.

Murgatroy
11-27-2017, 03:26 PM
I know that the few 5SFE builds that have been documented went over the $1000 mark, significantly. They also do not hit 160BHP, much less WHP. Cams alone will run you $300-$500. Add a header and intake and you are at $800 before any machine work or fuel system.

You can buy a 3SGTE of various flavor for $1500 give or take based on what you want. Yes, that is more than $1000. Yes, that is just to get in the door. You will then have another $1000 in making it run if you wire it and swap it yourself. However you have a factory engine that is not modified, and is going to be more reliable as it was designed to make that power. At 250BHP (or higher) you will be well above your mark of 160WHP.

The old tenet of of fast, cheap, reliable, pick two, is an age old fact.

If it were me I would drive the car till the wheels fell off, all while saving or buying a piece at a time for a 3SGTE or 5SFTE. However, look around, and anyone that wanted to make power (and not just for the sake of doing it the hard way) swaps in a 3SGTE. That is where the knowledge base is, that is where the aftermarket is, and that is where the power is.



Now, in my world, I never though the Celica was a powerful car. My daily driver makes twice the power you are looking for. Chaos and I have been doing this for two decades. She is not fast. Even after she gets her next new engine she might only be marginally fast. However she will stick to the road upside down and outhandle cars that cost ten times as much. She is light and nimble. Those are the traits she was born with, and that is what I have worked to enhance. Yes, her next engine will be a 3SGTE, I just haven't gotten around to it. But even with her 4AFE, she embarrassed a lot of more powerful cars given the proper environment.

4thgenceli
11-27-2017, 05:46 PM
^^^
What this guy said. Here is the link to my build thread from a '89 GTS I had a while ago

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44047

All the parts to it (probably missing some and rounded but prices are pretty close to what I paid from records I have)



Powertrain:
1999 Toyota Caldina 3s-gte (ST215). $900
1993+ Toyota MR2 turbo transmission (e153) with a 1.5way TRD LSD: $950
ACT organic street series clutch disc with heavy duty pressure plate: $350
Wire harness conversion from Dr. Tweak: $350
3" exhaust from downpipe back to a Magnaflow Street Series muffler: $150

Powertain extras:
Treadstone TR8 front mount intercooler: $250
2.5" aluminum intercooler piping: $100
SARD r2d2 BOV: Retail around $250, think I paid $100?
Speed source poly front/rear motor mounts: $90
Speed source brass shifter bushings: $50
AutoPWR all aluminum dual core radiator with dual 12" pusher fans: $200 ($150 radiator, $50 fans)

Chassis extras:
Megan coilovers, rear sway bar, end links and tie rods: $1000
Supra TT Walbro 255lph: $150

Interior:
Gauges (boost, oil, water): $250


It was a tick shy of $5k for me to build that car. It was fast, it was a blast and I regret selling it but I needed a roof over my family's head.

Now will you need all of that? Doubtful. If I were to do it again (wait..I am! lol) I would start again with the handling and build up to the motor. That motor was crazy overpowered for the chassis. Torque steered like a mofo at full boost. Better tires helped. Suspension adjustments were also helpful.

jman91
11-29-2017, 04:44 AM
^^^
What this guy said. Here is the link to my build thread from a '89 GTS I had a while ago

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44047

All the parts to it (probably missing some and rounded but prices are pretty close to what I paid from records I have)



It was a tick shy of $5k for me to build that car. It was fast, it was a blast and I regret selling it but I needed a roof over my family's head.

Now will you need all of that? Doubtful. If I were to do it again (wait..I am! lol) I would start again with the handling and build up to the motor. That motor was crazy overpowered for the chassis. Torque steered like a mofo at full boost. Better tires helped. Suspension adjustments were also helpful.

"Torque steered like a mofo" that got me laughing pretty good although I had figured that adding that much power would have that effect to some extent. Actually what you said about building my way to the motor is what I am doing. I have some exhaust pieces from a previous car waiting to welded on. After that I was planning on getting a set of BC coilovers, bigger rear sway bar, upgraded end links, new ball joints (performance ball joints if I can find some) wider wheels and tires with spacers that make the wheels not recessed in the wheel wells anymore. After that was when I was going to make my final decision about the motor. I can be a little impatient at times so building the current motor seemed like a quicker, cheaper option.

celica91gts
11-29-2017, 05:02 AM
If i was set on keeping and building a 5sfe i would get a beams 3sge tranny. The different gearing i hear make the car much more peppy.

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/4106/Celica-GTS-Kyles-Time-Attack-Car.aspx

Page 4 is where he talks about the tranny but its a good read if you like 5sfe

I have a findanza lightweight flywheel for free if anyone wants it. Its from my old 5sfe. Don't have a need for it now since i swapped. Just pay shipping. It also needs a new resurfacing plate from fidanza. It will make your revs a little bitty faster... both ways, up and down haha. Great for rev matching downshifts and aggressive turn ins.

4thgenceli
11-29-2017, 02:53 PM
"Torque steered like a mofo" that got me laughing pretty good although I had figured that adding that much power would have that effect to some extent. Actually what you said about building my way to the motor is what I am doing. I have some exhaust pieces from a previous car waiting to welded on. After that I was planning on getting a set of BC coilovers, bigger rear sway bar, upgraded end links, new ball joints (performance ball joints if I can find some) wider wheels and tires with spacers that make the wheels not recessed in the wheel wells anymore. After that was when I was going to make my final decision about the motor. I can be a little impatient at times so building the current motor seemed like a quicker, cheaper option.

Like Murg said --

Cheap, Fast and reliable. Pick two. I did the Fast & Cheap (since i was sourcing parts for crazy deals). I had a few problems from a seized turbo (overboosted and blew it) to flywheel bolts that weren't completely torqued down two an axle stub snapping. This way round I'm doing the fast & reliable using the experience I learned the first time.

And yes - that 215 was crazy overpowered for the chassis. The limited slip in the transmission helped a lot but if I didn't have that suspension upgraded, all new brake hardware (did SS lines too) and those new shoes I would of wound up around a tree or lightpole.

Pick 2.

jman91
12-04-2017, 07:12 AM
Right now I want to get my exhaust parts put on and get the suspension done and see where I'm at. I do a little bit to each project that I have at a time but I am excited for those things to get done. The suspension will be a big improvement I think.

Murgatroy
12-05-2017, 01:58 AM
A good suspension should be the first mod on any Celica. Over an exhaust and intake IMO.

underscore
12-07-2017, 07:33 AM
Aside from chopping off a clogged muffler to replace it (I seem to recall bits of the cat clogging the mufflers being a problem on 5th gens) even just some fresh dampers and whatever that cheap rear strut bar we can re-purpose (I want to say Probe/MX-6?) makes a much bigger difference than an intake or exhaust IMO.

Murgatroy
12-07-2017, 04:15 PM
I think it was a Neon strut bar.

ChrisD
12-07-2017, 07:12 PM
A good suspension should be the first mod on any Celica. Over an exhaust and intake IMO.

+1 to this. Good suspension and sticky tires and you'll be smiling all day long. Then when you have the money for horsepower, add a turbo/3sgte in the mix and you will have a car that can handle it.

underscore
12-08-2017, 06:43 PM
I think it was a Neon strut bar.

I know one end is a Neon, one is a Probe/MX-6 but I can't remember which is which. The info is around here somewhere.

METDeath
12-08-2017, 11:16 PM
Rear is Mazda MX6 Probe 93-96 RS LS Rear, but you have to cut it a little as only two of the three bolt holes line up. Look for one that a bolt through for the bracket, so you can remove the bar for cargo purposes.
Front is 95-99 Neon Front bar, look for the one with a complete ring and you have to put the bar in the front of the rings, not the back. Also, will likely not clear a TMIC on an 3S-GTE swap. You also need to cant it towards the firewall to clear the hood. It will block the oil fill cap though.