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Nitro_Alltrac
04-26-2015, 10:03 PM
It looks like I'm going to be doing the head gasket on the car very shortly.

I looked in the BGB about pulling the head and it more or less tells you to pretty much tear the engine down to pull the head. My question is how much do you really have to tear down to get the head off to replace the gasket. Do you have to pull the intake manifold before you pull the head or can that come out with the head? I know that damn wiring harness is going to be a major pain how ever it comes out.

Any way, I want to get some input from some of you that have actually done the job. I'd probably be ahead to drop the engine and go through the whole thing based on the mileage but I don't have money for that right now and I'm not sure that I want to get into all of that at the moment.

4thgenceli
04-26-2015, 11:19 PM
I've never pulled a head off a motor while in the chassis on a 3sgte, only the 3sfe.

When I did the head on the 3sfe I pulled the intake before pulling the head. I think that was a pain in the ass.

Nitro_Alltrac
04-27-2015, 09:47 AM
That's what I'm thinking Tim as big as the manifold is. Not to mention the damn wiring harness that Toyota saw fit to run down through there as well.

donteatbugs
04-27-2015, 02:15 PM
Ive done it in a MR2, Im not sure that its feasable in an alltrac but it could save you a lot of time since that is a harder motor to pull than the MR2 is. The intake has to come off. I redid my wiring harness to run under the manifold after I did that once. Everything is a pain to get at and nothing is easy. Just keep taking things off until it comes out.

both manifolds, water lines, cams, timing covers, water neck, braces, wiring harnesses, alternator and bracket, fuel rail and lines

Nitro_Alltrac
04-28-2015, 01:45 AM
Thanks Ben. That was what I was afraid of.

So you do have to pull the cams? I saw that it was shown in the BGB but wasn't sure that actually had to happen.

Luni
04-28-2015, 07:46 AM
Pretty sure you do. You dont have to if you use arps but on stock studs you do cause you cant get them to clear up and out with the cams in.

donteatbugs
04-28-2015, 11:51 AM
Since youve had the engine out before it would almost be more efficient to drop it out the bottom and pull it that way. A lot less back breaking work not to e bent over the fends for that long.

Nitro_Alltrac
04-28-2015, 03:50 PM
And there's not much room between that manifold and the firewall.

I'm kind of thinking that I might be ahead to just go through everything with the mileage on the engine. I'm not real happy with the oil pressure right and was thinking about doing the bearings anyway.

donteatbugs
04-28-2015, 06:10 PM
I agree, I would take it out and tear it down to see what you are working with.

Luni
04-28-2015, 06:24 PM
Mike, at the end of the day, it MIGHT be cheaper/better to find a JDM Gen2 to put back in there.

Im really not a fan of rebuilds unless you do it all. Replace those bearings, and refresh the bottom end, and at the end of the day you need to redo the head too, or something up there is gonna go wrong sooner than later.

donteatbugs
04-28-2015, 06:30 PM
It is a jdm gen2 I thought. The better way to go would be a gen3 or 4. But if he pulls it out and the cylinders are great then I would do ACL race bearings, mic everything out and then resurface the head and inspect the valves. I usually just lap them in with a drill. Put a gasket kit on it and call it a day.

alltracman78
04-28-2015, 09:01 PM
There's no reason to pull the intake manifold unless you can't lift the weight out of the engine bay [in an Alltrac]. I've never actually pulled a 3S from an MR2, but I've seen how bad it is. The Alltrac is much much more accessible. I don't think you even HAVE to pull the exhaust manifold, but it's probably easier to remove while the head is bolted down. Plus it adds a lot of weight.
Pull the throttle body, cold start injector and fuel rail [careful of the seals and insulators] and the harness comes out pretty easy IMO. There's only 3 pigtails from the harness that go through the manifold; the ground [10mm bolt on the rear of the #2? runners], knock sensor and TVIS. Oh, and I think the turbo VSV. Can't remember if that's off to the side or not. Everything else is over the transmission. 2 10mm bolts hold the harness to the manifold.
Take out the 2 top bolts for the manifold supports, and the 3? bolts for the vacuum lines.
You MIGHT be able to get away with only pulling 1 cam [I know a head bolt won't come out with one of them in, can't remember if the other is in the way or not. It's one of the end bolts], but if you pull both it is lighter to remove.


Why a head gasket?

Luni
04-28-2015, 09:04 PM
Jeremy, youre high. MR2 is WAY easier to pull an engine out of than an Alltrac. Ive done both.

Nitro_Alltrac
04-28-2015, 09:13 PM
I've got a coolant loss going some where and I've got evidence of the engine burning coolant. I've to pictures in this thread:

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?59209-Opinions-on-what-I-m-looking-at

I pulled the plugs and the #2 plug looks very clean. My thought and that of others is that I've got a leaking head gasket around the #2 cylinder. The odd thing for me though is that there doesn't appear to be any coolant in the oil. I drove the car to work last week and went through about a third of gallon of coolant in a little less than 200 miles. I've probably put in about a gallon in the past couple of months. I would have thought with that much coolant loss and it showing up in the gaps between the manifold and the turbo and the turbo and the down pipe that that I would have it showing up in the oil. The engine has about 140-160K on it so I would expect some of the coolant, if it is going into the cylinder, would be getting back down in the crank case. I'm just speculating on that though.

If you would Jeremy, take a look at the pics in the other thread and give me your opinion.

Thanks.

Nitro_Alltrac
04-28-2015, 09:17 PM
It is a jdm gen2 I thought. The better way to go would be a gen3 or 4. But if he pulls it out and the cylinders are great then I would do ACL race bearings, mic everything out and then resurface the head and inspect the valves. I usually just lap them in with a drill. Put a gasket kit on it and call it a day.

It is a 2nd gen JDM engine. It's been a great engine till now.

I've been thinking the same thing Luni. The prices on the 3rd gen engines are higher now than they used to be but there are some good deals on the 4th gen engines. The only thing is most of those are out of automatics and have the automatic ECM. I'm guessing that wouldn't work with a manual and would require sourcing a manual ECU. I would love to find one with a manual AWD box but those are few and far between.

Luni
04-28-2015, 09:21 PM
Just go look on the MR2 forums for the Gen4 swaps, or email Ty Saxon at TCS as hes done several Gen4 swaps. Find out the details. Pretty much anything that works in an MR2 will work for you.

alltracman78
04-28-2015, 09:36 PM
Mike, BHG doesn't mean coolant has to leak into oil passages. It can leak loads of ways.
But you might not have one.


Jeremy, youre high. MR2 is WAY easier to pull an engine out of than an Alltrac. Ive done both.

I'm talking about pulling the head, not the whole engine you buffoon. :)

Luni
04-28-2015, 11:01 PM
Your post said "Ive never pulled the 3S out of an MR2, but.... blah blah blah.

YOU buffoon! :p

alltracman78
04-28-2015, 11:33 PM
That I did. lol
That's what I get for not thinking while I'm typing.

Luni
04-28-2015, 11:58 PM
Haha. "Shut your mouth while youre talking to me!"

locker
04-29-2015, 12:53 AM
I'm going to go against the grain here. I'm all for engine swaps but depending on how bad things are a $75 head gasket $100 for machine work and and extra $200 for incidentals sounds a lot better than $1700 for a motor plus incidentals.

Pulling the head off is a total pain in the ass but how big a pain depends on how much crap you've already eliminated from the engine bay its not that bad. I had pulling the turbo off the car down to about 2 hours. then get the engine harness off and remove the intake manifold and your almost there.
If you think the engine is good I'd just fix vs. replace

CollapsedNut
04-29-2015, 12:55 AM
When working on any fwd car, step one: remove engine.
I've pulled a 3s head with the intake on though, and I've removed a 3s intake with it in the bay. You can do it but it's less headache top just pull the engine.

alltracman78
04-29-2015, 01:28 AM
Haha. "Shut your mouth while youre talking to me!"

lol Those are my miles!

UtahSleeper
05-02-2015, 04:19 AM
It is a 2nd gen JDM engine. It's been a great engine till now.

I've been thinking the same thing Luni. The prices on the 3rd gen engines are higher now than they used to be but there are some good deals on the 4th gen engines. The only thing is most of those are out of automatics and have the automatic ECM. I'm guessing that wouldn't work with a manual and would require sourcing a manual ECU. I would love to find one with a manual AWD box but those are few and far between.

The ECU doesn't matter. It doesn't check if the trans is there or not and from what I have read the tunes are not anything to be concerned about with the 2. I have a 4th gen installed in my 165 and it went smooth and running the auto ecu. The harness mod almost cost as much as my engine lol.

The Captain
05-02-2015, 12:16 PM
Easy peasy.

Step 1. Remove engine*

*see chapters 1 through 17.


But seriously the thought of working on that gyawddam timing belt system 1.2 inches away from the shock tower would make me pull that engine. Might just be time to go through the whole thing. Might as well!

Luni
05-04-2015, 05:31 PM
If all youre doing is a timing belt, it isnt THAT bad.

With a lift :p

bloodMoney
05-05-2015, 12:17 AM
I'll find out what that's like soon enough.

But for you Mike, I'm with Ben and John. I'd pull the engine.

Luni
05-05-2015, 05:59 AM
What Chris? You gotta do a timing belt in the car?

We could go over a new thread on this, but in my experience, dont reuse a tensioner. Just get a new one. I reused mine, and ended up having to replace the damn thing cause it wasnt holding tension. Theyre too easy to damage recompressing them.

Jeremy may disagree with me, but he is a toyota tech and knows how exactly to do it. I would just get a new tensioner. Id also look up the tensioner stud modification. Replace the bolts with studs and nuts. Makes installing it so much easier, and you arent near as ilkely to strip the fragile threads that holds that bitch into the head.

bloodMoney
05-05-2015, 11:51 PM
I was referring to everything being easier while working on a lift. :)

Nitro_Alltrac
05-06-2015, 09:42 AM
You all are, everything is easier with lift.

Luni
05-06-2015, 05:04 PM
You getting a lift Chris?

bloodMoney
05-06-2015, 06:10 PM
That's the plan. Once we build the garage, we'll include it in the floor plan