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VavAlephVav
12-04-2014, 07:28 PM
I'm just looking to get some professional opinions from you guys who actually work for shops or do this on your own for a living.


My sister has a little '01 Kia Sportage, and the timing belt broke while driving. They had a shop tow it and diagnose it. They told her it needed a timing belt and to do the water pump while we're at it. But then After they replaced the belt, pulleys, water punt, THEN they figure out that the valves hit and ruined the pistons. So the motor is trash. But they still expect her to pay for the parts and labor they've already done.


Isn't it SOP for a professional to test that and verify its not hosed Before replacing the timing belt? They can't really get away with that right? I told her not to pay him yet. At most she owes him for the tow and diagnostic. But the thing is an '01 with 220k miles, she's not gonna put a motor in it any way. Worst case they can keep the damn thing. Although really I think he can eat the parts and labor, take it back off and then we can sell it for scrap and get her something else. A freaking Toyota of course

VavAlephVav
12-04-2014, 07:53 PM
There also seems to be a great deal of confusion as to whether or not that is an interference motor or not, even on the Kia forums.
I tried to help her change the starter a while back and it was a real Pain, I guessed that funny looking Korean writing on the radiator cap has something to do with it.

Luni
12-04-2014, 07:54 PM
How would they test it?

Line the cams and crank up at TDC and do a leakdown test on it?

This sort of thing is kind of hard. You would think the mechanic would research whether that engine is interference or not, but maybe it isnt, and a valve floated during operation and it had a piston/valve collision. Hows he supposed to know that until he does the work, puts it back together and tests it? At the end of the day, you still have to pay for their time.

I dunno. Maybe playing devils advocate here, but this is why I do all my own diag and if I need work done I specify exactly what I need done, so this sort of thing doesnt happen. I think legally its going to come down to what is on the diag sheet. I mean, they clearly diagnosed a broken timing belt. So if it wasnt specified to perform a leakdown test prior to reassembly to verify engine health, then it isnt gonna get done. Post diag, there should have been some sort of order generated (whether on paper, or what - with some sort of estimation of cost/material). If the work was approved, and the order was completed, I dont know that you have a leg to stand on.

And I DO know that a mechanic CAN put a lein on your car if you dont pay them for work performed. So, Id talk to the shop and see if theyd be willing to include labor for the timing belt, to pull the head and redo that or whatever needs to be done (just make sure theyre not gonna charge you for the timing belt job again)

I dunno man. Its a tough call/situation. Maybe someone like KoreanJoey or Mafix or Hipster Lawrence would chime in since they do/did this shit for a living.

Funkycheeze
12-04-2014, 08:04 PM
They should at least boreoscope the engine to inspect for damage if it had a belt break and they don't know for SURE that it is non-interference.

Sounds like their fuck-up IMO. Just not sure what your best course of action would be.

VavAlephVav
12-04-2014, 10:37 PM
Reading stuff for hours and there is a lot of disagreement to it being interference or not.
It is a 2001 with auto and 4wd, which should be a Mazda 2.0 dohc and is supposed to be non-interference. Which could be why the shop Ass-of-U-and-me'd that it would just need a new belt. But there are lots of stories by people who say the belt broke and the motor was ruined. Wouldn't a professional Test to verify if it is repairable or not before suggesting to replace the belt?
Maybe a valve spring broke and punched through the piston even though it would normally be non-interference.
Of course the biggest problem is people like my sister, my mom, even the old man, just don't believe in fixing anything until it breaks which is just foolish.
My mom had this thing since it was new, and she has taken it to the same shop all this time. At 99k the belt broke, but at idle while in the driveway, and this same shop repaired it and just needed a belt and pump and it was good to go. Of course at that point you'd think they would have at least informed her "you need to have that replaced every 60k miles."

MCcelica
12-04-2014, 10:50 PM
There are motors like mine that are both interference and non-interference. Once my valve timing and/or lift is engaged, mine becomes interference, which could be part of the confusion. Granted I have a timing chain and most belt driven motors are non-interference.

The shop doesn't have to tell anyone to replace the belt every XYZ miles cause that's in the owners manual.

If a valve floated during the failure and smacked the piston, that would be considered a separate repair.

Mileage and production year non-withstanding. Parts and labor/services rendered must be paid. Your best bet is to get the shops insurance company involved and have them send an inspector out to see if the shop messed up by seeing if they could have known at the time of the original repair that the motor was trashed. If the shops insurance says they'll cover it, great. If not, you're no worse off than before.

Shadowlife25
12-05-2014, 03:48 AM
There are motors like mine that are both interference and non-interference. Once my valve timing and/or lift is engaged, mine becomes interference, which could be part of the confusion. Granted I have a timing chain and most belt driven motors are non-interference.

The shop doesn't have to tell anyone to replace the belt every XYZ miles cause that's in the owners manual.

If a valve floated during the failure and smacked the piston, that would be considered a separate repair.

Mileage and production year non-withstanding. Parts and labor/services rendered must be paid. Your best bet is to get the shops insurance company involved and have them send an inspector out to see if the shop messed up by seeing if they could have known at the time of the original repair that the motor was trashed. If the shops insurance says they'll cover it, great. If not, you're no worse off than before.


THIS.

All of this.

If they gave you an estimate and you agreed to it, signed it and ok'd the work, you are responsible for that cost no matter what. So parts and labor for the job are owed no matter what.
If you can do what Luni said and see if they will work with you on the repairs, cool. If you choose to contact their insurance to see if it can be done that way, also ok.
Just know that at the end of the day, you are going to have to pay for the job that you authorized them to do at the minimum.

Deal with them honestly and don't be a dick about it. They will more likely than not do their best to take care of you, especially if theey have been servicing your family's cars for some time/

CollapsedNut
12-05-2014, 04:34 AM
I dont work in automotive, I work in heavy AG. If this exact thing had happened in our shop to a tractor engine lets say, and after doing the basic repair we found more was wrong it would go like this.
Notify customer that further repair is needed and give a quote on the repair.
This is where the game starts, the customer may say go ahead and fix it with no complaints. We would give him a quote to finish the work and that would be the end.
If the customer gets upset and complains, we would take steps to gain their satisfaction. Discounts ect.
In the worst situation, this would be an "incomplete diagnosis" and we would give the customer a large discount on labor to finish the repair.
In a situation like this, our shop would hold the tech responsible for a incomplete diagnosis. The labor time he put into it would be billed to the shop and go against his efficiency(labor used vs labor billed). The customer would pay for parts to finish the repair but no labor.

VavAlephVav
12-05-2014, 05:03 AM
I see what you're saying. But I consider this an incomplete diagnosis. If you tell me X is what's wrong with it, but then after completing that job you don't just need some more parts but instead you say - "well it turns out the whole motor is trash." Then I say you made an incorrect diagnosis. Especially when you guys know as well as I do that cost for a belt and water pump is less than $100 and a couple of hours labor, but you still want $800 - and we have to throw it away and buy another motor, and pay the labor to put it in. And the worst that could happen is they keep it. In fact they could put a motor in it and sell it for a profit and actually make money on the deal. We are still just SOL.
I have a friend whose been in this business for years and he said if he had misdiagnosed something like that he'd be eating his timing belt for lunch for weeks.
And actually no, they don't have a signed work order only a verbal ok. But that was only given because they said the timing belt would fix it. If they had told her that there was even a Small chance that the engine was completely ruined and they wouldn't know for sure until they replaced the belt she would have never agreed to it.
When she talked to him to day, calmly, he admitted to her that every time it breaks while the motor is running it will damage the valves slightly. Which indicates to me that he was well aware that the motor could potentially have permanent damage. Yet he didn't warn her of this before he asked if she wanted to go ahead with the timing belt replacement.
We're giving the guy some time to think about it and call us back later.




I've had my own little LLC doing light commercial refrigeration for restaurants and convenience stores, with repair bills that would rival the cost of auto repair work. And I always figured that because I am the Expert it was my duty to educate the customer. If routine maintenance will save them a lot of money in the long run I at least tell them about it, I don't assume it's their responsibility to understand these things, I am the expert and it's my job to teach them. Now, if they don't listen to me fine, I warned them and if it breaks later down the road it's not my fault. However there are a lot of people in my business who don't do it that way because, after all, they make more money when it breaks so why warn the customer.

Shadowlife25
12-05-2014, 08:43 AM
I see what you're saying. But I consider this an incomplete diagnosis. If you tell me X is what's wrong with it, but then after completing that job you don't just need some more parts but instead you say - "well it turns out the whole motor is trash." Then I say you made an incorrect diagnosis. Especially when you guys know as well as I do that cost for a belt and water pump is less than $100 and a couple of hours labor, but you still want $800 - and we have to throw it away and buy another motor, and pay the labor to put it in. And the worst that could happen is they keep it. In fact they could put a motor in it and sell it for a profit and actually make money on the deal. We are still just SOL.
I have a friend whose been in this business for years and he said if he had misdiagnosed something like that he'd be eating his timing belt for lunch for weeks.
And actually no, they don't have a signed work order only a verbal ok. But that was only given because they said the timing belt would fix it. If they had told her that there was even a Small chance that the engine was completely ruined and they wouldn't know for sure until they replaced the belt she would have never agreed to it.
When she talked to him to day, calmly, he admitted to her that every time it breaks while the motor is running it will damage the valves slightly. Which indicates to me that he was well aware that the motor could potentially have permanent damage. Yet he didn't warn her of this before he asked if she wanted to go ahead with the timing belt replacement.
We're giving the guy some time to think about it and call us back later.


Hate to break it to you, but that highlighted passage in the quote there... that's pure bullshit.
Parts are cheap if you buy cheap parts. And when you do, they usually don't hold up. That is not opinion, but experience.
Most timing belt jobs take at least 4-6 hours in practical work time. I don't know what that one books out at but it should be at least that.
Now take average shop rate (Here it is $125hr NON-DEALER) add the time for the job, then add the cost of whatever they are putting in.
$800 for a reputable shop to do that job isn't far off the mark.

Perhaps he could have done a more thorough job in assessing the situation before beginning the work or at least a better job in communicating the issue to you, but from what you said, it doesn't seem like the mechanic or shop or whatever is trying to go out of their way to be malicious.
Give them a chance to try and make good. They might surprise you and just have you pay for the new parts needed and they will eat the labor. But even then, you will need a bunch of new parts, so is that cost A) Something you can afford? and B) Something you consider worth while on this car?

Just something to think about. I would hate to see you screw yourself or your sister over by jumping to wrong conclusions on the motives of this shop when it doesn't seem like they are trying to wrong you.
Remember, they are just guys trying to work in their trade and get paid a living wage too. Try kindness first always.

If that fails, get a bigger hammer/

MCcelica
12-05-2014, 08:45 AM
I see what you're saying. But I consider this an incomplete diagnosis. If you tell me X is what's wrong with it, but then after completing that job you don't just need some more parts but instead you say - "well it turns out the whole motor is trash." Then I say you made an incorrect diagnosis. Especially when you guys know as well as I do that cost for a belt and water pump is less than $100 and a couple of hours labor, but you still want $800 - and we have to throw it away and buy another motor, and pay the labor to put it in. And the worst that could happen is they keep it. In fact they could put a motor in it and sell it for a profit and actually make money on the deal. We are still just SOL.
I have a friend whose been in this business for years and he said if he had misdiagnosed something like that he'd be eating his timing belt for lunch for weeks.
And actually no, they don't have a signed work order only a verbal ok. But that was only given because they said the timing belt would fix it. If they had told her that there was even a Small chance that the engine was completely ruined and they wouldn't know for sure until they replaced the belt she would have never agreed to it.
When she talked to him to day, calmly, he admitted to her that every time it breaks while the motor is running it will damage the valves slightly. Which indicates to me that he was well aware that the motor could potentially have permanent damage. Yet he didn't warn her of this before he asked if she wanted to go ahead with the timing belt replacement.
We're giving the guy some time to think about it and call us back later.




I've had my own little LLC doing light commercial refrigeration for restaurants and convenience stores, with repair bills that would rival the cost of auto repair work. And I always figured that because I am the Expert it was my duty to educate the customer. If routine maintenance will save them a lot of money in the long run I at least tell them about it, I don't assume it's their responsibility to understand these things, I am the expert and it's my job to teach them. Now, if they don't listen to me fine, I warned them and if it breaks later down the road it's not my fault. However there are a lot of people in my business who don't do it that way because, after all, they make more money when it breaks so why warn the customer.

And if you consider it an incomplete diagnosis, bring their insurance company and have them inspect it. That's what they (should) have insurance for. It's to cover them if they screw something up. Most times when a shops insurance says, "yeah, you dorked this up", they're usually more willing to do what "CollapsedNut" said, and try to work a deal as well.

A "verbal ok" is still legally binding in many states.

And it probably goes without saying, but I'll do it anyway just in case it's not clear. While I find it admirable that you would take time to educate your clientele, that doesn't mean jack. Nobody else has to, especially when, nine times out of ten, the customer doesn't give a crap, they just want it fixed. Just because you did it, doesn't mean anyone else does. Especially if it's in the owners manual. There is no legal liability there.

In short, get their insurance company involved. That's seriously going to be your best bet.

VavAlephVav
12-05-2014, 01:23 PM
The other thing is the Gates timing belt manual lists that motor as an interference motor. Anybody shop who would check that would have to assume it is damaged.

Luni
12-05-2014, 09:50 PM
I dont know man. I honestly dont think you have a leg to stand on.

Im not saying youre entirely wrong, but I am saying you are partially wrong. My reasons are listed already. Your best bet is to talk to them about it, if you care this much, YOU need to engage the shop on behalf of your mom/sister/whoever it is. And you need to be reasonable about it. Youre dumping all of the fault on the shop. Youre saying, if theyd have told me there was a chance my engine was borked from a timing belt breaking, Id never have paid to replace the belt. Well then how much WOULD you have paid to diagnose that? Theres no way to tell even with a boroscope fully if its fucked. You have to do a leakdown test, and that is pretty hard to do without a timing belt on the car. Theres just no real reliable way to tell whether or not the belt will fix it unless you put the belt on.

Id be willing to bet, if you actually talk to them, and ask them how much to put a used head on there (I doubt your pistons are fucked. Ill bet there are divots in the pistons, but Ill bet theyre fine - happens to DSMs all the time). Theyd heavily discount the work, since youre already committed to the timing belt job itself.

But at this point, my quesiton is. HAVE YOU EVEN SPOKEN TO THEM ABOUT IT or are you just on here arguing conjecture with us? I ask this in all seriousness. Many things in life are blown way out of proportion because people WONT COMMUNICATE DIRECTLY.

VavAlephVav
12-06-2014, 07:35 AM
I wanted a collection of professional opinions before I continued, I've found about 60/40 who agree with me. And he didn't have time to meet with me until Saturday anyway. So ya I am going up there to talk to him myself and tell him we'll let his insurance company determine if he handled it properly. Like I said, I ran a small business and I always considered it my duty as the professional to educate the customer. not say "too bad you don't read the service manuals." I am well aware there are plenty of shops who don't think that way, and that doesn't make it right. Other professional mechanics who I do trust have told me that if the belt brakes while running you have to assume it could be damaged even if it is called "non-interference". and yes, then you tell them "there is a chance the motor is completely ruined, and we won't know for sure until we put a belt on it." Going about it this way completely changes the equation, Then you have covered your self. The reason so many shops get away with it is because nobody's ever challenged them on it.

VavAlephVav
12-11-2014, 03:46 PM
For those interested, I had told the general manager I'd have a chance to meet with him on Saturday and so I went up there. My Mom told me he'd always been a real nice guy and so I had no intention of being aggressive or mean, just needed to explain my side of the story. Of course the manager, Randy, had not set the deal up but the mechanic, Steve, had bid the job, decided what to do and quoted the work to my Mom so Randy was going on second hand knowledge of what had happened.
I told Randy that motor was listed on the Gates timing belt manual as an interference motor, and he agreed, he showed me the paperwork from the database they had and it indeed clearly stated this motor as interference. And I said, "If you know it's an interference motor then you have to assume it could be damaged, and the right way to go about it is to Warn the customer up front 'the motor may be seriously damaged and we wont know for sure until we put a belt on it.' THEN you ask them if they want to do the repair work. Randy said his tech, Steve, had been the same person who replaced the timing belt on this motor when it broke the first time several years ago at 99k miles, and what he had done was see that last time they replaced the timing belt and it was OK, therefore he figured This time he could just replace the belt and it would be OK. I told him you just got lucky last time, If the motor is listed as interference you have to assume the worst. Last time it broke while idling in the driveway, this time it broke while driving down the highway. And then told him that I do commercial refrigeration (and I went up there wearing the jacket from the old company I used to work for), and I told him I've handed many customer a bill just as big as an automotive shop and I told him, "I am the expert and people pay big money for my service because I Am the one who knows and I don't expect them to know anything, It's my job to educate them about things like regular maintenance." With this statement you could visibly see the energy run out of his shoulders. Regardless of whatever happened when they replaced that timing belt the first time you should have informed my Mom that thing needs to be replaced every 60k miles, and anything beyond that you are pushing your luck and risk seriously damaging the motor. Randy said, "yeah but when you tell people that they think you're just flapping your gums trying to sell them more work." And I agreed, BUT if you warn them and they ignore you it is Their fault, if you fail to warn them it is YOUR fault. And I told him that Mom gave this thing to my sister and she's done her best to take care of it, every 3000 miles she has been over at my brothers house and we showed her how to change the oil, now she goes and gets what she needs and changes it herself. But my brother and I have been under the hood of this thing a dozen times in the last 2 years. We helped her change the starter in this thing, and it is the biggest bitch I've ever seen a starter be. BUT I told him If there had been a sticker on that timing cover that showed the mileage when that belt was due my brother and I would have seen it and been on it. Randy insisted that Steve would have put the sticker on there, he sees him do it all the time, so we went out and looked and nowhere did we find the sticker, not on the timing belt cover, or the hood or anywhere else. So at this point he was willing to play ball, at first I thought I might have him take the head off then I'd get it repaired and bring him a head gasket and he'd charge me the labor as if we had done the whole job like that in the first place. But then I realized we have no way of knowing just how bad the motor is until we get it apart and I didn't want him to have to be in the middle of things like that so instead I told him I'd pay him for the Tow, diagnostic, Timing belt kit, and the gallon of coolant he had in it then I'd tow it away from him and out of his hair, $260. He agreed with that and I had it towed to my friends shop so he can asses how bad the motor is then we'll go from there. And we went away with no hard feelings against Randy, I told him if I run into something that I don't want to have to do in the driveway with no lift I'd still bring it to him.


I have to say that this being an international forum I come here intentionally to Discuss Ideas with other people, especially those who have insight to these things because they are either automotive professionals or just have a lot of knowledge from their own experience.(that's not 'bitching') And really, there are several of you who disappoint me because you're overly concerned with things like naughty words, or speeding, yet you see nothing wrong with bending people over and sodomizing them just because they don't know any better. I'm just not very impressed.

Luni
12-11-2014, 07:34 PM
Dude, youre talking to a bunch of car guys.

You are a car guy. You should have known exactly what the ramifications were. If my mom called me and said that was the problem, thats exactly what Id have told her.

Its called an exchange of ideas. You ultimately did exactly what you should have, which is discussed it with the manager, and it sounds like you got the outcome you needed.

What else were you looking to get? People are entitled to their own opinions man.

Murgatroy
12-11-2014, 08:16 PM
I have to say that this being an international forum I come here intentionally to Discuss Ideas with other people, especially those who have insight to these things because they are either automotive professionals or just have a lot of knowledge from their own experience.(that's not 'bitching') And really, there are several of you who disappoint me because you're overly concerned with things like naughty words, or speeding, yet you see nothing wrong with bending people over and sodomizing them just because they don't know any better. I'm just not very impressed.

Then stop frequenting the site.

It is obvious at this point that you aren't going to fit in. I have tried explaining to you how we operate, yet you still feel the childish need to sit in the corner and pout because you were reprimanded. Most people stop doing that around the age of four.

Just to make it clear, one more whiny ass childish complaint out of you, that isn't posted in Off Topic, and I will ban you. Plain and simple. I am tired of your immature shit.

If you want to act like a moron, go to Off Topic, that is where Ricksta is required to stay. If you want to stay in Off Topic you can continue to be as stupid and childish as you want.

If you want to play in the regular portion of the site, I require that you act like an adult. One or two word posts that are nothing more than derogatory sexual innuendo is a clear sign of someone with a low intelligence. That is not what we want on our site. Coarse language is fine, in the context of the communication. When you post holds no correlation to the topic at hand and is nothing more than pubescent mutterings of sexual frustration, yes, I will make it go away and send you a nasty gram.

You like to stand on your soap box and claim how smart you are, how experienced you are, how much you have accomplished in life and where you want to go in the future. I only ask of you to prove it and live up to those words, instead of leaving false words spoken loudly as a fraud.


So, to make certain we are clear, this is indeed your last warning. Behave, play by the rules outside of Off Topic and everything will be fine. If you want to act like a child, go do it in Off Topic. If you can not accept these stipulations, I will ban you. I hope I have been clear.

MCcelica
12-11-2014, 08:22 PM
And I agreed, BUT if you warn them and they ignore you it is Their fault, if you fail to warn them it is YOUR fault.
Again, that is false due to the owners manual. The fact that the guy agreed and cut you a break is solely reflective of him as a person. If this had come down to a court proceeding, good ol' Judge Judy would have taken all of the wind out of your sails right then and there.


I have to say that this being an international forum I come here intentionally to Discuss Ideas with other people, especially those who have insight to these things because they are either automotive professionals or just have a lot of knowledge from their own experience.(that's not 'bitching') And really, there are several of you who disappoint me because you're overly concerned with things like naughty words, or speeding, yet you see nothing wrong with bending people over and sodomizing them just because they don't know any better. I'm just not very impressed.

If you seek advice here, you must be prepared to take that advice. We're not here to tell you what you want to hear, especially if your argument is technically and/or legally flawed. Hey, maybe the mechanic did screw up with interference vs. non-interference. The fact remains that the owners manual says "This is on the list of regularly scheduled maintenance" and, as such, negates his screw up. You said you wanted a collection of professional opinions and you got them. They just weren't in line with what you wanted us to say. At least you took CollapsedNut up on his advice, and there you got very very lucky.

The question I have, now, is since you actually did get what you asked for as opposed to what you wanted. Where does that leave you disappointed? The fact that none of us were like, "YEAH, SCREW THAT GUY! SUE THE PANTS OFF OF 'EM!" doesn't mean that it's not a collection of ideas. It just means that the collection of ideas wasn't in your favor. I just saw your argument from the other side (the side of Randy and his mysterious mechanic buddy) and saw you as the cheapass who's just trying to get out of paying the damn bill and making weak ass excuses to try to shift the blame. I won't speak for anyone else here, but if I were to guess, I'd say it's a safe bet that others did the same. That is still a collection of opinions. If you wanted a collection of people saying, "Yeah, you're right", you should have made a post that says, "My mechanic sucks!" and maybe one or two of us might have asked "Um... why?" And then we would have just let the thread die. But no. You wanted input. We gave it. If you want something to be disappointed in, be disappointed in your thought process.

4thgenceli
12-11-2014, 09:19 PM
Oh Shiney balls.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

andy
12-11-2014, 10:08 PM
Most shops will pull the head and look while that far into an engine. In fact while I was working at a shop on the weekends they had an acura come in with a broken tbelt. First thing was to pull the head and inspect to avoid un needed work. I would say shop fault but they were doing what they thought was right and you most likely will not be awarded with anything but headache. This is why I always do all my work myself.

Luni
12-11-2014, 10:11 PM
They can only pull the head if they get authorization from the customer. Theyre not gonna just do it until someone agrees to it.

MCcelica
12-12-2014, 02:44 AM
And even then. If you don't drive the belt till it breaks and take care of it like it says in the owners manual...

But thanks for trying to make the OP feel better, Andy. :)

VavAlephVav
12-12-2014, 05:23 AM
well, after all that, Guess what?
my friend looked at it for a couple of hours, fixed a leaky rocker cover, found a bad connector on one of the ignition coils, and That was All that was wrong with it.
So this tech that had been working on it was on old timer, been doing this for 20+ years, what do you think the chances are that he just misdiagnosed an ignition misfire for some bent valves or cracked pistons?? hmmmmmmmm


to me this goes beyond people being capable of doing proper maintenance on the car, It's a matter of trying to take advantage of people who don't know any better. That is an injust application of knowledge, and a big part of what's really wrong with the people in the world today. If that's the only way you can make money I'm not going to feel bad for you when you go under.

VavAlephVav
12-12-2014, 05:29 AM
Most shops will pull the head and look while that far into an engine. In fact while I was working at a shop on the weekends they had an acura come in with a broken tbelt. First thing was to pull the head and inspect to avoid un needed work. I would say shop fault but they were doing what they thought was right and you most likely will not be awarded with anything but headache. This is why I always do all my work myself.


Others have told me what their shop would do is warn people Up Front that the motor may be further damaged and you can't tell for sure until you put a belt on it. And I could agree this is the best way to go about it, you warn people up front and then ask them to agree to the service. Here they just assumed it would be ok even though the motor is listed as interference, and told her it just needed a new belt. Furthermore since this same shop did the timing belt the first time they should put a sticker on there that shows when the service was due because my sister has had us helping her, we had no idea when the belt was due, and if there had been a sticker on there my brother and I would have been on it. In fact the motor sits normal direction and It would have been easier than the belt on my 5sfe.


and these days you can also get one of those Rigid inspection cameras and look at the valves through the spark plug holes.

VavAlephVav
12-12-2014, 05:58 AM
Again, that is false due to the owners manual. The fact that the guy agreed and cut you a break is solely reflective of him as a person. If this had come down to a court proceeding, good ol' Judge Judy would have taken all of the wind out of your sails right then and there.



If you seek advice here, you must be prepared to take that advice. We're not here to tell you what you want to hear, especially if your argument is technically and/or legally flawed. Hey, maybe the mechanic did screw up with interference vs. non-interference. The fact remains that the owners manual says "This is on the list of regularly scheduled maintenance" and, as such, negates his screw up. You said you wanted a collection of professional opinions and you got them. They just weren't in line with what you wanted us to say. At least you took CollapsedNut up on his advice, and there you got very very lucky.

The question I have, now, is since you actually did get what you asked for as opposed to what you wanted. Where does that leave you disappointed? The fact that none of us were like, "YEAH, SCREW THAT GUY! SUE THE PANTS OFF OF 'EM!" doesn't mean that it's not a collection of ideas. It just means that the collection of ideas wasn't in your favor. I just saw your argument from the other side (the side of Randy and his mysterious mechanic buddy) and saw you as the cheapass who's just trying to get out of paying the damn bill and making weak ass excuses to try to shift the blame. I won't speak for anyone else here, but if I were to guess, I'd say it's a safe bet that others did the same. That is still a collection of opinions. If you wanted a collection of people saying, "Yeah, you're right", you should have made a post that says, "My mechanic sucks!" and maybe one or two of us might have asked "Um... why?" And then we would have just let the thread die. But no. You wanted input. We gave it. If you want something to be disappointed in, be disappointed in your thought process.


When I ask for opinions I am well aware that some will say one thing, and others will have a completely different view. And of course just like so many other things I know - Most people (even the ones who supposedly "know" about these things) are stupid assholes, and what they think doesn't matter. So I am prepared to filter that out and listen to the people who do have wisdom to impart.


Example: from my business in the realm of light commercial refrigeration, I had a customer who runs a little German deli and he has this super old equipment including a walk-in cooler that originally ran on R12 and has R401a dropped into it. As I got deeper into engineering school I had to stop doing my own service work through my company, and I didn't have anybody else I could send him to do his service for him. So about 8 months ago the compressor on that old unit died, a 1.5 hp semi hermetic. And he had no choice but to call one of the local union shops, he figured it might cost a little more but at least they know what they are doing, Right? A couple of months ago one of my students who has been working for some big shops for a while decided he'd had enough and was ready to start his own company and run his own work, so I gave him the phone numbers of my old customers including my German Deli guy. Just last week that compressor he had replaced by the Union shop tripped the breaker after only 8 months. And when he went out there he found that $1800(cost) compressor shorted to ground. completely hosed. They had replaced an old R12 mineral oil system with a new POE compressor, but didn't flush the old oil from the system and upgrade the Expansion valve and put a modern refrigerant in it. They just slapped a new POE compressor on it and refilled it with the HCFC R401a, they charged him $1000 for 30# of R401a for a walk-in cooler that holds only 10#, $4000 job total. And that is completely WRONG. When you have mineral oil mixed with POE it creates a wax, and when you don't do a proper vacuum the moisture left in the system reacts with the heat of compression and forms an Acid, the Acid eats away at the insulation on the motor windings until it shorts out. This is not some advanced refrigeration knowledge, It's Refrigeration 101, and even the supposed "experts" at a Union shop still didn't do it right and just hosed this guy out of four grand.


this is not the only place I collect data from , there are several other sites and people I know in real life. And I have what I thought in the first place, and add that to what I learn from the others I ask. If anything I'm just looking for advise to help reinforce what I thought in the first place.


And If I had listened to you, these rednecks would have drawn some paint pen marks on that motor to make it look like they had installed a salvage yard motor and charged us a couple grand for it.

Luni
12-12-2014, 07:20 AM
All I was saying was to talk to them yourself to get the whole story which is what you did, so it ended up being the right thing.

Im glad it worked out for you. We dont need to argue about this anymore.

MCcelica
12-12-2014, 08:02 AM
If anything I'm just looking for advise to help reinforce what I thought in the first place.


And If I had listened to you, these rednecks would have drawn some paint pen marks on that motor to make it look like they had installed a salvage yard motor and charged us a couple grand for it.

Yeah, people who think they know everything like you just always do "ask for advice to help reinforce what you already think you know". The real smart people in the world realize that they know enough to not know anything. But you're just some big giant brain that magically knows, sees, and divines everything from that magical 8 ball that's somehow "always right" that you call your mind. So all you ever really need is that reassuring, "Congratulations, sluggo. Ya did it again!" And congratulations to you sir. You have an admirer. /Sarcasm.

If you would have listened to me, the insurance company stood a good chance of ruling in your favor, or finding the simple error that was made, and you'd be getting the repair comp'd by the insurance company, you silly fuck. And, ya do know that there are ways to find out if "some rednecks put some paint strips on to make it look like a yard motor" right? I thought you said, "Those rednecks" have been trusted from your family for a long time... Hmm... Imagine what kind of arrogant prick that makes you. But instead, your buddy fixed some simple shit because you got all caught up pissing and moaning some sad sack, bullshit, nobody gives a fuck story about how YOU would run YOUR business. YOU AND YOUR GIANT BRAIN DIDN'T EVEN FIGURE OUT WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS. Guess what. I'm so glad that it worked out for you that you had to pay to get it towed there AND towed away, still pay for a timing belt and some other shit. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.

You will find here, that if you throw whiny attitudes around here, you're going to get more than you bargained for. If I ever offer advice to you again, I won't be so nice next time.

Jackass.

Facime
12-12-2014, 09:17 PM
https://whyweprotest.net/attachments/frabz-pass-the-popcorn-this-is-getting-good-5d6b21-jpg.234905/


One thing to remember is that we are all human, and as such, are prone to error.

I think the shop screwed up, but wasn't trying to bend anyone over. This is evident by the way they handled it when you finally walked in there and dealt with it like a man. Whining about someone else's mistake on a public forum is a crapshoot and you just found out that not everyone will agree with you just because we share some common trait. Get used to it, people are assholes. What made you think we would be any different here? Hell Seth and I had a knock down drag out not too long ago and here I am agreeing with him.

You say you were disappointed with the response here, and I say welcome to the family. People here are going to tell you like it is (or at least how they see it). No one here is going to blow smoke up your ass. Its your choice how you want to go proceed from here, but I offer the following advice: get over it, move on, learn and grow.

MCcelica
12-12-2014, 10:46 PM
Lol, love ya Pete.

Luni
12-13-2014, 09:35 AM
Can we just let this shit go?

Whats really important is shit got taken care of. Not everyone is gonna be right or wrong all the time. Or I guess everyone IS gonna be right and wrong. Someone has to be right, someone has to be wrong.

Lets just quit being dicks to each other and move on with our lives.