View Full Version : Code 14 I Got Fire

08-05-2014, 02:57 AM
or I Got No fire rather. - FIXED NOW!
detailed history of my motor is in this thread posted a couple days ago here

1994 OBDI 5sfe 2.2L manual
I have a head gasket leaking exhaust gas into the coolant system and there are traces of oil in the coolant. I am getting another motor in September I just have to nurse this one along till then.
We believe this motor to have been stop-leaked before I got it and is therefore not worth doing the head gasket on.

with the above thread it had begun not wanting to start and I definitely needed an ignition coil, and I found one and a nice distributor as well. and It started right up and ran well enough for the next several days, but I didn't drive it much as I had to deal with the wheel bearing. I thought everything was cool and then I topped off the radiator and didn't start it for a day. Now it doesn't want to start again.

It acts like it's going to fire right up but then shuts down as if the computer is cutting it off. consistently just gives me code 14, "no IGF signal to ecu several times in a row". this was one of the codes before that led me to grab another igniter, dizzy, and coil. the coil definitely was bad the others I just replaced anyway.

But I need a little help understanding what this code may mean.
from what I've read so far it is the confirmation signal that shows there was indeed a spark, and if not the fuel must be pooling up and it therefore cuts off the system.

the other thing that seems to fit with my headgasket issue and the way its acted in the last couple of months is that I believe coolant is leaking into the cylinder while the motor is off, and making it difficult to start the first thing in the morning. So I wonder could it be that there is coolant in the cylinder and that is preventing the spark from firing? Once I actually started the motor first and it fired right up and Then added some coolant with it running and the motor literally choked as I topped off the radiator. the other thing that coincided with getting it to run the last time is that I also had all four plugs out for several hours while I went to the salvage yard and got a new coil, igniter and dizzy. maybe that just helped dry the cylinders out and That is really why it fired up when I put it all back together. and everything was fine until I topped the radiator off.

so this time what I have noticed is that, even though I hadn't gotten it to start yet and had only cranked it a few times, the radiator cap was under pressure. as if I had that much exhaust going into it just from trying to start it. And I took this as a good reason to pull the top hose and install the new one I got. I just spilled the coolant from the top hose and did not refill it. then I pulled the plugs for 15 min or so and when I put it back together it started and I kept it running at a high 2k idle for about a min and then it cut off again. but this was a big improvement which makes me think I'm on the right track. So tomorrow I'm going to pull those plugs and let them sit out for a while. and If I do get it up and running im going to go ahead and stop-leak the motor so I can keep it running for another month until I get my new motor.

So what do you guys think about the code 14? am I looking at this the right way? Can the coolant leaking into the cylinder snuff out my fire even though when I pull the plugs they are kinda burnt up but not wet. (ngk copper only 6 months old)

08-05-2014, 06:24 AM
Let me put it this way. If you brought your car into my shop I would tell you that I wouldn't do any work on your car without fixing the headgasket first.

Having said that, the code 14 is the igniter or the coil. I would backprobe the ECU as I instructed last time.

08-05-2014, 12:27 PM
the chart says the IGF terminal should be 2v or less with the ignition on.
So can I just clip my ground to the frame and check that terminal or should I test between that terminal and the one marked power ground or ecu ground? and can I just turn the key to ON and probe it or do I need somebody to crank the starter while I check the voltage reading?
are there ohmmeter tests for the igniter itself?

and I did try jumping Fp to B+ that didn't help

08-05-2014, 07:06 PM
The diagram I linked you to earlier tells you the conditions to test under (i.e. key on or not).
Ground is ground is ground. You should test continuity to chassis of the grounds on the ECU, but you can use either when testing for voltage at the ecu.
The book says to test the Igniter the engine needs to be idling, so Im not sure other than trying another igniter what to tell you on that one.

here is the complete diagnostic procedure for the EFI system:

08-05-2014, 07:20 PM
awesome ty.

first thing this morning I got it to start up on the first try and I kept it at a high idle until it warmed up. it died once while cold and started right back up, as long as I kept the idle up it stayed running until it warmed up then I could let it drop to normal idle.
I let it run till it warmed up and then cut it off. Came back out around noon and it wouldn't start again.

so far I tested the IGF terminal with the key on, it said it should be less than 2v and it was about .02v . from the diagram I've seen that is just a wire straight to the device. which should tell me that because there is no voltage drop then there is a good connection through there. I have pointy test leads on my UEI phoenix, but I wonder if this is supposed to be done with even smaller points. I'm paranoid that im going to jam it in the wrong way and mess up the plug or terminal.

the next thing I did was assume (I know...) that the igniter itself was grounded through contact with the case to the bracket its mounted on. so I took it off for a minute and took my wirebrush to the bracket it mounts to and made sure I've got some clean metal contact. and when I put it back on and plugged it in the car doesn't even want to fire at all. now it just cranks and gives me code 12. I do have 2 used igniters and so I tried the other one and it does the same thing. So I wonder if I just got a bunk distributor, granted I am getting it from pick-n-pull. But I can keep going back and digging until I find a decent one. I've got the next two weeks off but then I have to keep this thing running everyday for maybe 3 weeks until my new motor is ready. if I can get it running im for sure going to stop leak it.

for now ill spend some time with this material for the ecu testing procedures and report back with what I find. thanks

08-06-2014, 02:28 AM
I've been working through these diagrams today and it took me a while just to put together the info I needed before I could even go out there and start probing points. there's some discrepancy between the pin diagrams of each different link that you gave me, the first lists a 1.8L and a 2.0L, we know damn good n well that the 2.0 is not the same as the 2.2. some of the plugs look dyslexic compared to the ones just the year before, as if the pins were reversed, or whoever transposed those docs just stayed up way too late copying all that stuff. I also have a nice Toyota pdf from a 1994 5sfe, cant find the link I got it from. but none of them seemed to be exactly the same so I wrote down the wire colors as well, the second link you gave me turned out to have the best pin position charts. http://bgbonline.celicatech.com/93celica/fi/voltohmmeter.pdf

but for some reason on the 5sfe it started talking like you needed to remove the plug and take out a locking mechanism and test with the plug off. the Toyota book I have didn't say anything about that so I just back probed.
I tested all of the grounds, E 01, E 02, E1, E2, to the chassis and all were good. then I clamped the black probe to the bracket the ecu mounts to and probed Batt - 11.8v, B+ 11.8v, VC 5v, PIM 3.6v, #1 11.6v, #2 11.6v, THA 1.8v
all with the Ign ON and are within what the book says they should be. I don't have a helper to crank the engine while I test IGT, and I have not disconnected the plug to test ohms with the key off. unplugging 20 year old wiring makes me nervous.

so the computer side seems to check out, tomorrow ill pull the dizzy again and take a look at it and the coil.

08-06-2014, 03:05 AM
when you crank the engine does your tach needle bounce?

08-06-2014, 03:42 AM
no not at all.

at this point it cranks by the starter motor but doesn't even try to fire up, and my code 14 has changed to a code 12.

Odd that it started early in the morning, but didn't want to start after noon when it got hot outside maybe heat effecting the magnetic pickup coils. tomorrow im going to clean out the pick-n-pull and hope I find a nice looking dist. once in a while you find one that somebody replaced not too long before they junked the car. and little things like the igniter and coil are small enough to fit in the pocket so i'll get a couple of those too.

08-06-2014, 06:37 PM
if the tach isn't bouncing when you are cranking it then something in the ignition system has definitely failed (its not the headgasket, or water in the cylinder or fuel supply or anything along those lines).

There are only three components it can be or the associated wiring to them. The dizzy (which includes the coil, and the pickups), the igniter, or the ECU. You might want to pick up another ECU while you are at the yard. Its a good thing to have in your spares pile anyway.

here is the flowchart for the IGN troubleshooting: http://bgbonline.celicatech.com/93celica/ig/inspection5sfe.pdf

08-06-2014, 08:17 PM
:ya when I took the dizy apart I saw that one of the wires that leads to the plug attached to the secondary coil was smashed up. I see now that there are little tracs built into the coil so that you can tuck those wires into place, otherwise that wire might get clipped by the signal rotor :embarrest: also the little condenser had goop coming out of it.

when I clipped my ohmmeter to the connector and the other end of the wire I could wiggle it and watch it fluctuate from 0 to 4 ohms, which is 8 times the resistance of the transformer. I picked up another igniter too. so I'll put it back together and we'll see.

08-06-2014, 10:28 PM
sounds like you found the issue to me.

08-06-2014, 10:51 PM
well it fired up for a min, and then shut back down. still giving me a 12, im looking at the 4-wire plug on the distributor, the lock is broken off and im going to see if theres a bad connection in there.

:yupnope: /sigh

08-07-2014, 12:48 AM
granted, I am trying to use junkyard parts, (but ive got three damn igniters). the coils on the dizzy ohmed out good and the plugs looked ok but the little bits on the rotor that you're supposed to check with the feeler are kinda rusty looking.
its raining pretty good so im done for the night, but tomorrow im going to go back out and check the pins on the ecu again. like you said yesterday Ground is Ground is Ground. I know that but when I look at this checkout procedure it always starts from the specific ground pin to the positive terminal you're checking, and if you have No voltage between those two but you Do have it from the pin to the chassis ground, then it goes to Check wiring or replace ECU.
All of the readings I did yesterday were with my black lead clamped to the bracket the ECU mounts to and bolts to the floor. I very well could of had bad readings but didn't quite do the checkout right.
especially since it wants to start once in a while and then all of the sudden it doesn't. I also find it odd that my problem was the code 14, and it was firing up but being cut back off. and then I removed the igniter, cleaned up the mount and when I put it back together all of the sudden it doesn't want to fire at all and I get the code 12 now.

the 6th gens at the picknpull are not GTs so I cant get the ECU out of those, I'd have to buy one from somebody on the forum probably. and even then you cant guarantee.
Im still hoping its just a shitty plug, I want to go ahead and order a new dizzy but I wish I had someway to Prove which part I need.
So Ill run more tests at the ECU tomorrow, I can also remove the plugs and test the wire circuits with the ohmmeter, those readings are in the 1995 EWD I have.


08-07-2014, 03:26 AM
Also, in the book code 12 says - No "Ne" or "G" signal to ECU. and then lists The Distributor, ECU, the Distributor Circuit, AND the starter signal circuit.

when I look at the schematic I see the starter control circuit runs from the ignition switch to the ST 7.5 fuse, to the clutch switch, to the starter relay but also splits off to the Circuit Opening Relay. which seems to be a dual coil relay controlling the fuel pump. and I found this page explaining the operation http://wilbo666.pbworks.com/w/page/43601637/Circuit%20Opening%20Relay

"In cars without flap type AFMs the engine ECU detects the engine speed (via the distributor or crank angle sensor etc) and the engine ECU has a dedicated output pin FC that is connected to ground inside the engine ECU via a transistor to turn the COR on when the engine ECU determines that the engine is running.
When the engine ECU determines that the engine is not running the engine ECU FC output is turned off which causes the COR to turn off and the fuel pump to be turned off."

this page as well http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/tech-conversions/18471-your-friend-circuit-opening-relay-how-wire-fuel-pumps.html

slightly confused as to why this would be listed under the code 12, I can see that it would shut off the fuel pump if the ignition it on but the motor is not running, and it detects this by the distributor signal.
or is it saying that a malfunction of this relay would cause the ecu to not see the distributor signal? the wire after this COR switch goes to the fuel pump and splits off to this D1 Data Link Connecter. and I no longer here the fuel pump when it cranks.

I cant for the life of me find the page I got this EWD book from so ill have to post Pics of this schematic I'm looking at

and the diagrams show this thing is up under the center of the dash floor. :yay:
also, do you have any advise for pulling relays without breaking them? even after I unlock the tab with a screwdriver I never can seem to get them to just wiggle out.

08-08-2014, 03:53 AM
So I checked volts from STA to E1 and got 9v, and form IGT to E1 and got about 800mv. which is within spec.
then I disconnected the battery and took plug A off the ecu and tried to test from G- to G and got OL. I tried to poke through the back like you would if it was connected and I went through the front just touching the little traces and still got nothing.

are there any other junctions or splices in those wires between the ecu plug and the dizzy plug? It seems to me they must come through the conduit that comes out of the passenger side firewall and through the box that goes over the fuel rail to the dizzy and igniter. my wirelimb does look kinda beat-up with some black tape here and there. but is it possible its just a bad connection in the dizzy plug itself? I mean for it to read infinity it has to be completely severed somewhere right?

any thoughts?

08-08-2014, 07:27 PM
I can see now the problem is in the connector for the Dizzy. but the kids at Toyota are like "you want a what?" so I may have to try and find a better one at picknpull.
I appreciate your help and I'm going to complete this thread just for the sake of the poor bastard that searches for this thread years later. I HATE it when I follow a thread of somebody with a similar problem and then they just figure it out and never come back to post their solution :cussing:

heres the new pics of what I did to test it on 6gc forum

08-09-2014, 03:54 PM
You can use a pick to get the pins up a touch, which should be all you need. You *can* disassemble the connector, but anything you find is still going to be old and quite likely brittle.
Good job tracking down the root cause of your issue. :)

I still suggest a full rebuild on the distributor. Basically just O rings and checking the wires that run internal, besides, they love to get new O rings. Makes them not leaky. lol

08-10-2014, 03:21 AM
I did get a new O ring and a good ignition coil, the shaft doesn't have any play in it and the air gaps were good and the pickup coils ohm out right. I Also, even though it was not mentioned in the FSM, got a new Condenser.
this makes a big difference in the ability of that coil to generate spark. aside from examining how it looks for corrosion or goop leaking out of it you want to test it with a Capacitance meter. it should be 0.47 micro farads (the backward u symbol).
the one I pulled out of there had irratic readings and when the meter would get a reading it would be something like 2 Nano farads, which is 0.002 micro farads. the new one was only $5 and when I put my meter on it jumped straight to 0.469 micro and stayed there.

the locking mechanism on mine is busted so aside from the pin terminals being worn out it wont stay in very tight. I'm going to see it I can get lucky at the pick-n-pull just because they have dozens of Camry's.

Also when I called Toyota they said I would need to find a repair manual and lookup the part number for the one I needed and I did find the repair manual on a Toyota Mud site

the one I need for the dizzy is a water-proof female 4-pin 990980-11150, I should get the 2-pin one to the igniter as well the lock is broke on it too.

and I also found the link I got the 1995 EWD from, this is a real Toyota color wiring diagram for both the ST and GT


08-12-2014, 04:56 AM

I was stuck for a couple days because I couldn't get a ride down to the picknpull before 6. and once I did I walked in and picked up two plugs each for both the four-pin and two-pin plugs on the distributor. the second Camry I cut them off looked kinda nice. I don't remember seeing it when I was there the week before must have just got it. and The plugs looked real good so of course I put three of them in my pocket and paid $3.50 for the fourth one. it even had clean copper looking terminals.


but then when I got home I noticed the color of the wires on the N-,N+, G-,G+ plug. they were in a different Order than the ones on my Celica.
Celica from the top (lockside)
it is Red, Black, Blue, Yellow

Camry from the bottom
is Yellow, Black, Blue, Red

after double checking the wiring diagrams and ohming out the coils on the distributor terminals, and checking rockauto to see if the part numbers for the distributors were different or something.
I came to the conclusion that the Camry simply uses different colored wires for the same circuits. Where as I had found by comparing different year celicas that even when the ECU pins change the color of the wire used for each circuit stays the same, the Camry is based on a whole different color setup.
So if I had not paid attention and just crimped red wire to red wire and yellow wire to yellow wire it would not have been hooked up right. So I actually had to connect red to yellow on the wirelimb to the Camry plug.
I know I can unlock the terminal and just move it to the other spot but I was afraid the plastic would break if I tried to unlock the terminal without the special tool that CARQUEST wanted $14 for .
I confirmed they used different colors on the Camry also by the smaller plug for the ignition coil being 2 totally different colors, even though the wire that goes to +is a larger gauge.

Also notice the little number on the bottom of the plug, this is the identifier for it. the guys at Toyota said I'd have to find a wirelimb repair manual and look up the numbers for them to order. this one is a 90980-11150, and the 2-pin is a 90980-11156 from this page here http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/pdf/WireHarnessRepairManual/femalewa.pdf
I was going to call toyota just to see how much money I should save up before I can get some good ones.
:wedgie: :idb:
but I also found these guys on ebay who can make them from a catalog to order if you give them those numbers. they only want like $15, idk how the quality of the plastic is though. http://www.ebay.com/itm/90980-11156-Toyota-Connector-Harness-Repair-Kit-/351065797424?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51bd26f330&vxp=mtr
or just search ebay for the plug numbers.

of course after I got everything hooked up and ready to go I found I only had enough juice left in my battery for one crank, and it caught and tried to fire up which tells me it saw the distributor signal and started the fuel.
:battery: :unsure:
but then the only person I could get to come over and help me with a jumpstart was Mom, and somebody at some time told her that everytime you jumpstart another car it weakens the cell in your battery.(is that freakn true?) And she freaks out if I ask so instead she went to walmart and picked up a Jumpstart box for me. ...but damnit you have to charge the thing overnight the first time you use it, so here I am still waiting to see if I've got this thing fixed yet or not. I'm running out of time

I do know where I can get a used ecu, I just don't yet know if that's what I need. and I've got some of the drop in bars-leaks ready to go as soon as I get it to start and run for 20 min.

I know you guys are all like :boohoo:
and I'm like :rant:
and you're like wtf is with this:weirdo:
whish he's stop :deadhorse:

08-12-2014, 05:05 AM
and here are some pics of my Condenser. this will make a big difference in the ability of that coil to make a phat spark.






08-14-2014, 01:07 AM
Nice legwork you put in there man!

Pretty new condenser is pretty. Also within specifications, so big win there.

The fact that you are having HG issues complicates things greatly, but if you got it to crank and had fuel and spark, even with a dead cell is still a good sign. Hope it all goes well and I have to say I know I haven't posted in this thread much at all, but I have enjoyed following your progress, so Thank You.

- Mario

08-14-2014, 04:23 AM
from what I understand it is possible to ohm out the ignition coil and get a good reading because the wire of the coil is not broken, BUT the insulation on the secondary may break down at high voltage and allow your spark to leak away. So I broke down and ordered a brand new dizzy and coil to be sure. and a used ecu for cheap. also noticed I cant find the ground wire that should be on the intake to the firewall. So I'm climbing under it tomorrow and have prepared a couple feet of #8 with some ring terminals just incase. Or maybe it Is there but there's so much grease it doesn't conduct. I've cleaned up the other grounds.
everything else ive done by the flow chart is at the point where it says "replace ecu" because ive proved the circuit for N and G to be good and the timing belt is not broke. the air gap and pick up coils test good I however don't have an oscilloscope to actually View the cam signal from the distributor.
O and after I got it to fire up and run a couple of time that night it Again began giving me a code 12, when I do get it to run intermittently I have to keep the throttle open till it warms up or it dies and gives me the code 14 again.

also this is the better link for step-by-step how to tackle the code 12 and 14 http://bgbonline.celicatech.com/94_6gmanual/G%20tests%20with%20codes%202.2L.pdf
I'm at the point where I wish a had an oscilloscope so I could verify the signal coming from the distributor. makes me want to get the techstream software and run it on my laptop.

08-16-2014, 01:09 AM
So at this point I have decided to stop dicking around with salvageyard ignition parts and ordered a brand new distributor, cap, coil and all. even though I did order the WPS from rockauto for $90. I also have an Ecu on the way just in case.
I cleaned up All the grounds including the one from the neg battery terminal to the transmission, the bolt on the nose in front of the fender, the two smaller ones that run from the transmission and head to the left shock tower, and the one from the other side of the head by the Alternator to the Right shock tower. I did not however find the one that is supposed to be from the intake manifold to the firewall, so I made one from some #8 thhn and some ring terminals and connected it to one of the open 10mm holes on the bottom of the intake but couldnot find the place it is supposed to go to on the fire wall. I cleaned up the igniter bracket and sanded the connections and paint/primer from the firewall and connected my manifold ground under the bolt on the igniter bracket that I cleaned up. I did see the ECU grounds coming from the wirelimb and bolting to the intake manifold, and I have tested each ground wire at the ecu for continuity to the chassis.
and just to convince myself I took the cap off and used my camera to film the rotor spinning while I cranked the engine.
I can occasionally get it to fire up and it may run as long as I keep the throttle open but will soon die, and does not consistently fire up at all. again and again it will record code 12 if it just cranks, and once it has fired and dies it gives a code 14 as well.

08-16-2014, 02:47 AM
Hopefully the new parts get you going again but I think your problem is in the harness.

08-16-2014, 03:24 AM
I thought that for a while but I've been able to verify the connection from the ecu plug to the distributor pickup coils, if anything maybe the bad connection is in the ecu plug to the ecu.
but for something that is tucked away and never gets plugged and unplugged, or hot then cold then hot, idk wtf those terminals would be worn out.
I've wiggled the plugs and wirelimb in various locations as well with no results.
the only thing that has worked it when I get a used distributor it works for a little while then stops, then I get another one and it works for a while and then stops.
and the last time I took it apart the ignition coil that I thought looked so good had developed a small crack in the silicone that had not been there at first.
tomorrow I'll see if I can ulock the terminals from the ecu plug and push the finger back out a bit to be sure they grab the pins of the ecu real tight.

08-17-2014, 05:14 PM
my parts will be here tomorrow and I spent yesterday making sure of grounds and wiring and any other little thing I might of missed.
so this morning I pulled the old distributor back out to take a look at it. what I found was that the shaft seal seems to be letting oil through it. I replaced the little O-ring but that doesn't stop oil from coming into the electronics through the shaft. its not a lot but enough that you can tell oil was getting slung around and no doubt getting all over the pick-up coils and retarding their ability to send a proper magnetic signal. also the ignition coil that I thought had looked really good in the first place now has a split in the silicone where it says Toyota.
Somewhere in the hundreds of pages I've read in the last couple of weeks I thought I'd seen something about a bad battery could be very hard on the coil during start up. which is what I had a leaky cell even though it still had 12.4v it didn't produce enough current to work properly. also even though my cap and rotor were not more than 6 months old there was a white wax like build up on the contact points inside the cap. I tested the plug wires through the cap and they were only 7.5k ohms if I touched the inside peg of the cap, but when I tried to go through the contact point where the rotor hits it read up in the Mega ohm range and I scraped that crap away with my test leads and it came back down to an acceptable range.
the new dizzy comes complete with coil and cap, and I feel better now that it will fire up once I put it in.

also the primary coil went up from 0.5 when I got it to 2 ohms now.
I think the moral of this story is Don't buy ignition parts from the junkyard.


08-19-2014, 03:58 AM
When I came home today my brand new dizzy was waiting in a box on the porch, and the computer was in the mailbox.
So I slipped in the new Dizzy ...And Nothing but crank crank : (

Then I took out the ECU and double checked the connections of the ecu plug and once again ohmed out the wires to the pickup coils just to prove to myself again that the wires and plugs from the computer to the dizzy were good.
The nice fella I bought the ECU from for only $60 also included the brackets and the Circuit opening Relay. which was cool because then I noticed the corner of my front bracket had been sharply bent out of place, which tells me it's been removed before.
and I busted my circuit opening relay when I unplugged it. :) of course

I mounted the new ecu up and hesitated a couple minutes before hitting the key saying "here goes nothing" fully expecting it to not work - but VROOM VROOM :burnrubber:
it fired right up and didn't stall or hesitate a bit. I let it idle a while so that stop leak I put in there would heat up good. I don't have a timing light so I just turned it down until the idle was at about 1000, ill go up to autozone and use theirs in the parking lot tomorrow.
Now I'm as tickled as a three-peckerred Billy Goat. :waveycool::boobies4:

I took the old ecu apart and almost didn't see it, but if you look real close you can see the Cap that shit itself. there's some black goo around it and one of those little switches in front of it is all melted.


also several of these chips have the shiny protective coating chipped away

:cheesy::biggthumpup::fluffy::yay::cool::rockon::w oot:

Thanks a bunch for your pointers and even just giving me someone to bounce things off of guys you helped a lot.

08-21-2014, 03:19 AM
Really happy to hear that you found the issue. Even better to see the proof of the ecu failure. That thing definitely looks like it has been on the way out for quite a while! Great Job man. :)

08-21-2014, 03:58 AM
ya I also think it may of had something to do with the missing ground wire from the intake manifold to the firewall. I've seen several posts of guys who do a headgasket and then forget to hook that ground up and it wont even power up the ecu. the guy I bought this from in October had just installed another motor the week before I got it, and it must of had good enough conduction through the rest of the motor for it to run but may have over stressed the ignition system and ecu. the guy that put this thing in was a super-hack, there are so many shitty looking connections in the wirelimb, and you can see the paint-pen marks on the head so I know he got the motor from a Camry at picknpull, didn't even remove the balancing shafts just cut the clutch cover to make the oil pan fit instead. That's why im getting me another motor here in a couple of weeks. I found a guy on 6gc that's got a used one he's done the head gasket not too long ago and he took real good care of it, and even gave me a better price on it including shipping than I got quoted from any salvage yard across the country and I know the history of this one. Just need to slap an oil pump and timing kit on it and it'll make a good DD for the next couple years till I finish school and turn this thing into a toy. :)