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Murgatroy
06-20-2014, 04:39 AM
Chaos is going 3SGTE.

Johnny Cash style, one piece at a time.

This thread is intended as a catch all/project/guide.

The Goal is a `90 ST (AT180) to have a 2nd Gen 3SGTE with an S54.

Now that we know where we are going, let's talk how to get there.

Right now I have nothing, other than Chaos, for those not in the know she started life as an AT180 with an automatic. She finally popped her second 4AFE last year. When her first engine was replaced she was converted to a five speed.

Parts:

S series motor mounts
S series crossmember
Shift Cables
S53 axles


What else?

Obviously I will need an engine and an S54 transmission, so I am up on that.

What about accessories? Brackets? Other magic parts I am missing?

It is also worth mentioning that it will most likely be an MR2 3SGTE.

bloodMoney
06-20-2014, 02:26 PM
Yay!!! We will help with what we can.....

We actually could piece together a longblock from our spares for you... Obviously, everything will need to be rebuilt, but then at least you could build it how you want it, instead of wasting big $$ on an engine that is questionable.

Lonestag
06-20-2014, 02:53 PM
Yeah, I'm probably going to have some random bits and pieces that lying around that I won't mind getting rid of whenever you are up here.

grimmythereaper
06-20-2014, 03:51 PM
wire harness. its my understanding that wireing in the 3sgte is a PITA in the AT180, the mount on the pass. side will have to be changed. from i what i remeber when i went from A seris to S seris, everything is different. alt. bracket, alt. starter. map sensor, radiator and hoses, ac compressor? im not 100% on the comprssor.

grimmythereaper
06-20-2014, 03:52 PM
also rear disc swap? :P

Murgatroy
06-20-2014, 04:55 PM
After next month I will have all the parts for the four wheel disc five lug swap. So that is done.

I will also have all the parts listed above, the mounts, the xmember, axles, etc...



As for the engine, I have a pretty solid lead on one. So the transmission, harness and accessories are the only big question marks right now.

underscore
06-20-2014, 09:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but the engine mounts will be different so there may be some cutting and welding involved.

Murgatroy
06-20-2014, 10:46 PM
The upper motor mount. Yes. We are on it.


I suppose I should also specify that while I am probably not going to do a step by step picture tutorial, I do intend to do a mostly step by step picture tutorial. While it will of course focus on the AT180 chassis, once the motor mount is in, it should be rote for rote ST184. The current knowledge-base, while extensive, takes a lot for granted.

grimmythereaper
06-20-2014, 10:49 PM
As for the engine, I have a pretty solid lead on one. So the transmission, harness and accessories are the only big question marks right now.

harness may be the hardest part to find by itself, unless you grab one for a 5sfe and do a shit ton of wiring. i would do the lsd mr2 tranny, kinda of doing it right the 1st time kinda thing. from what i understand the gt or gts tranny dont hold up to launchs very well. i havent launched my vert since i swaped the 3sgte in just BC i dont have the money for the mr2 tranny, but the GT tranny holds up pretty well while at highway speeds. You could get a body harness from a GT or GTS and swap the harness so you dont have to wire in any accessories. im not sure if the ST and GT have the same body harness wiring but it wouldnt suprise me.

Murgatroy
06-20-2014, 10:54 PM
I am not concerned about launches. Chaos is a beast designed for the mountains. I don't envision clutch dump redlight runs for her. She might realistically see <2k a year, and most of that will be to the Dragon and back. Maybe some autocross if I feel special. The gearing of the S54 sounds peachy for the mountains.

The idea is a 200WHP car weighing in at 2000lbs. On 10+" wide sticky rubber.

Luni
06-23-2014, 09:26 PM
Depending on how long this takes him to cobble together, or if we can get a decent shipping quote on an engine, Ill prolly be providing a powerplant for the car,

Murgatroy
06-23-2014, 10:36 PM
I am envisioning a ~2 year parts collection of the cobbling phase. Unless someone can donate a garage in addition to an engine. I am aware that might be pushing it, but it happened once before and turned into one of the best vacations and friends I ever had...

lamont
06-23-2014, 11:21 PM
Mr2 Turbo non-lsd transmissions can be had fairly cheap since most people are after lsd transmissions. I picked this up for $150 locally:

http://i626.photobucket.com/albums/tt345/scruff69x/94%20Celica%20GT/20140504_130849_zpsddff2c82.jpg (http://s626.photobucket.com/user/scruff69x/media/94%20Celica%20GT/20140504_130849_zpsddff2c82.jpg.html)

Same goes for non-lsd axle stubs also cheap since most guys are craving the lsd lol. You get the benefit of a beefier transmission that will hold up well to power and the piece of mind that you won't kill it. Also a plus that you can always upgrade to lsd in the future.

grimmythereaper
06-23-2014, 11:39 PM
i can provide a driveway, a big ass tent, free food and a place to sleep may be a bit of a trip for ya.

MCcelica
06-24-2014, 04:42 PM
Speak the word and I have an S54 that I can send to you. It's in my 94, hooked up to a 5s, and it was the only good part on the car. She will be seeing a 4th gen 3s and a MR2 turbo trans fully rebuilt before she see's pavement again. That said, the engine ( = crap) will eventually be parted, but the trans and wiring should be good.

Murgatroy
06-24-2014, 09:32 PM
I wonder what shipping an engine and a tranny versus fuel for driving The Pig to Utah would be...


Would make a good roadtrip.

Luni
06-24-2014, 09:38 PM
I think youd spend 500+ bucks in gas to drive that thing out here.

That said, youd still be doing good if I gave you the engine for free. Although you may need to find a turbo for it. Im definitely not giving you my turbo.

Murgatroy
06-24-2014, 10:53 PM
What about a harness, does it have a harness?

Murgatroy
06-24-2014, 10:54 PM
Oh, and Dick.

4thgenceli
06-24-2014, 11:24 PM
Lol.

Chaos is gonna be a mean bitch with a 3sgte.... Speaking of which, I need to start getting my list together.

MCcelica
06-25-2014, 01:07 AM
I would find a way to make the trans pretty cheap if you picked it up, Murg.

Murgatroy
06-25-2014, 01:20 AM
I would hope so, Crisco just said he wouldn't feed me, or dress up in women's clothing for me, so there is no tranny in Colorado for me, just a transmission.

CriScO
06-25-2014, 02:03 AM
I never said I wouldn't feed you. And I don't feel like shaving my legs for the dress right now.

MCcelica
06-25-2014, 05:57 AM
I won't purdify myself, or Chris, but if you play your cards right (IE: Keep me posted on if/when you're planning to make the trip) I'll purdify the transmission for ya, so you don't get dirt under your girly nails. :)

Night_Wolf
06-25-2014, 11:58 PM
Swapping into an AT180 isn't all the terrible, I did it to mine. The worst part was welding the passenger side body mount from a GT/S onto the strut tower of the ST. Also if you get a complete engine with harness and fuse block from the 3S it swaps right in. The only thing I had to wire up was the third plug from the ECU that goes into the body harness under the dash since I cut a new hole in the firewall and routed all the ECU wires through it I didn't have to extend anything. The 3SGTEs from the MR2 also need to have the alternator bracket and thermostat housing swapped from the All-trac (from a thread on the site here somewhere that I cant find at the moment haha) and the stock hood will not close with the TMIC unless its got spacers

Murgatroy
06-26-2014, 12:45 AM
Chaos has an AT hood, but I will probably go FMIC since I am using MR2 parts and the top mount won't be available.

I know that Andy also goes on about how only the third plug needed repinned and it was a walk in the park. What is required on the third plug, what does it do? If were to remove all the factory gauges and go all aftermarket, with just a massive tach in the dash, would I even need to repin the third plug?

Luni
06-26-2014, 05:47 AM
I think the third plug is primarily for shit like AC.

Also, yeah I have harnesses, and ECUs but theyre for MR2s. Im sure it can still be made to work, just sayin.

Murgatroy
06-26-2014, 06:04 AM
I have no AC. All that is left of that is under the dash, even the condenser is gone.

I have aftermarket gauges, the only thing I use my dash for is the CEL and the tachometer as I use a GPS for vehicle speed. In theory are we saying I could just run the MR2 harness to a battery and be good to go?

Night_Wolf
06-26-2014, 06:42 PM
I'm honestly not 100% sure what it does in the dash, but my guess would be its for all the cluster stuff, but my dash gauges work fine. I also did end up extending one set of plug wires for something ignition related I believe it was. I forgot to plug it in once after I put the engine in again and it wouldn't fire up until I plugged it in. So you could in theory just hook it up to a battery but you'd still need to swap the alternator and T-Stat housing from an all-trac because theyre mounted differently between the two chassis. And you'd also need to cross two terminals in the diagnostics box so the fuel pump runs all the time.

celicatuner92
06-28-2014, 07:00 PM
Murg would you be interested in a stock ct26?

Murgatroy
06-28-2014, 11:45 PM
Yeah, that would be great. I am not looking for a powerhouse. 200WHP is feasible on a stock 2nd Gen with little effort.

I will admit that the fires have cooled just a bit though, Eli and I had big plans for the weekend after next of stripping a GT donor, and that is where a lot of the S series specific parts were going to come from.

celicatuner92
06-29-2014, 01:40 AM
Yeah I know but when you are ready for it let me know. I have at least 4 of them and at least 1 is complete with water lines and all.

I wish I was closer to the area of where the car is I would help you out.

sloceli
06-30-2014, 04:45 PM
There are only a couple wires from the 3rd ECU plug that you actually need, the CEL and Speed signal from the cluster to the ECU. The COR might be part of the 3rd plug as well but it won't matter if you put a jumper in the diag box.

Luni
07-02-2014, 10:17 PM
Joel has risen!

Shadowlife25
07-04-2014, 10:13 AM
Joel has risen!

Woot!

Welcome home fucker. :yumyum:

Oh and Murg, I have a 3SGTE ECU if you like. Should be a stock 90-91 AllTrac unit or MR2. All the same anyhow where that is concerned..

sloceli
07-05-2014, 03:03 PM
Oh hi.

Shadowlife25
07-06-2014, 04:47 AM
Oh hi?

*shakes head* I miss you bro. Glad you're ok.

Luni
07-13-2014, 09:37 PM
Joel youre a cunt.

That said. I love you.

alltracman78
07-15-2014, 05:46 AM
If I may; I would suggest a 92/93 ECU, it has better diagnostics.

If you use an MR2 engine you'll need Alt and Pwr steering brackets. Alt is specific to the 3s [make sure it matches the ex man; the alt bracket that fits a 7 bolt man won't work with a 9 bolt man]. Pwr steering is the same as the 5s. I'm assuming you don't care about AC.
I THINK the 5S uses the same/similar coolant neck, the MR2 one won't work too well either.

Wiring is cake, you're a pretty fart smeller, so you'll be fine. Even if you have an MR2 harness.
The 3rd plug is mainly the batt/acc wires, fuel control and chassis inputs [speed, brake, AC, MIL, ect].

:)

Luni
07-15-2014, 05:49 PM
If I may; I would suggest a 92/93 ECU, it has better diagnostics.

If you use an MR2 engine you'll need Alt and Pwr steering brackets. Alt is specific to the 3s [make sure it matches the ex man; the alt bracket that fits a 7 bolt man won't work with a 9 bolt man]. Pwr steering is the same as the 5s. I'm assuming you don't care about AC.
I THINK the 5S uses the same/similar coolant neck, the MR2 one won't work too well either.

Wiring is cake, you're a pretty fart smeller, so you'll be fine. Even if you have an MR2 harness.
The 3rd plug is mainly the batt/acc wires, fuel control and chassis inputs [speed, brake, AC, MIL, ect].

:)


Rev2 ECUs have better Diag, but they also have shittier components. Rev2 ECUs and Gen3 ECUs are out there starting to drop like flies. Bad capacitors etc.

With that said, theyre definitely better, just something to look out for. Ive personally laid hands on about 3 Rev2s that died, and Bruce had a Rev2 that died, I sent him my Rev1, he rewired for it and issues resolved.

Murgatroy
07-15-2014, 08:25 PM
If I may; I would suggest a 92/93 ECU, it has better diagnostics.

If you use an MR2 engine you'll need Alt and Pwr steering brackets. Alt is specific to the 3s [make sure it matches the ex man; the alt bracket that fits a 7 bolt man won't work with a 9 bolt man]. Pwr steering is the same as the 5s. I'm assuming you don't care about AC.
I THINK the 5S uses the same/similar coolant neck, the MR2 one won't work too well either.

Wiring is cake, you're a pretty fart smeller, so you'll be fine. Even if you have an MR2 harness.
The 3rd plug is mainly the batt/acc wires, fuel control and chassis inputs [speed, brake, AC, MIL, ect].

:)

AC is a nonissue, the components are all gone except what is under the dash.

The alternator brackets/alternator are specific to the front engine 3S? How difficult are those pieces to find?

alltracman78
07-15-2014, 09:01 PM
Hm didnt know that about the ecus. I guess ill hang onto my spare then. :P

You shouldnt have a problem using a 5s alt, just make sure the connector matches the harness. Or you could wire in the right connector. 5s pwr steering pump should work fine too. The alt bracket shouldnt be too hard to find. I might have a 7 bolt one here.
You also prob need the tensioner assy, im not sure how the mr2 tensions the ac.

underscore
07-15-2014, 10:30 PM
5S alt will bolt into a Celica 3S, but the plug might be different (shouldn't be a big deal if you're doing wiring anyways). The bracket and tensioner are different from a 5S but I haven't checked to see if a full 5S assembly would fit a 3S. If you watch for 3S partouts you shouldn't have much difficulty finding what you need. You might be able to pull parts from a 1g 3SGE but I'm not positive (hell maybe even a 3SFE?).

Nitro_Alltrac
07-17-2014, 09:44 PM
I've got a 5S auto alternator on my All Trac (needed an alternator quick and didn't have couple of days to wait). It came from O'Reilly's. The plug on the 3S harness worked fine with no mods. The automatic trans alternator has a higher amperage output than the manual. It's either the same or almost the same as the All Trac specific alternator.

alltracman78
08-20-2014, 02:21 AM
Just to clarify things, a FE alternator bracket won't fit on a GTE head. I don't know if a GE bracket will fit.
The 5SFE alternator is basically the same as the 3SGTE, but some of the newer ones have a different connector [oval instead of round]. As long as you have the plug for the alternator it's cake to put the connector on the harness. You don't even have to cut any wires.

The Captain
08-20-2014, 03:08 AM
I'll have to see what I have in the basement....

I miss my vert. That swap was fun.

I'm going to go in the garage and sit in my Jag 'til I feel better.

bloodMoney
08-22-2014, 03:22 AM
Watadick

Murgatroy
09-17-2014, 09:08 PM
Well I am cheating.

I bought a known swap and I am gutting that.

I will be updating with steps and maybe even pictures in the coming weeks.

Murgatroy
09-18-2014, 01:00 AM
Is there anything special to doing a head gasket on a 3SGTE? I remember something silly about the head bolts torque to yield? Or was the that 5SFE?

celicatuner92
09-18-2014, 01:01 AM
I've done 3 or 4 nothing out of the ordinary just make sure you use new bolts or studs

Murgatroy
09-18-2014, 01:10 AM
Groovy.

I am so excited for boost.

What about using the 1st Gen 3SGE intake on the 2nd Gen 3SGTE, is that worthwhile? I know I would have to change the routing of my piping.

Nitro_Alltrac
09-18-2014, 01:26 AM
I've heard of people doing it but I haven't actually met anybody that's got that set up. It makes the FMIC piping more efficient as it doesn't have to be routed over the exhaust manifold and the turbo, and I seem to remember that it's supposed to flow better. The stock center throttle bottle is supposed to have some odd flow characteristics. The side mount throttle body on the 3SGE is supposed to flow better and have better distribution. That's what they went to on the 4th gen 3SGTE.

METDeath
09-18-2014, 02:32 AM
I thought 3S-GE intake fixed the lean condition on #3? Or was that the 2nd gen 3S-GE intake?

celicatuner92
09-18-2014, 02:37 AM
Either one will fix the lean issue. The 1st gen ge manifold has to be modified to work with the gte throttle body. Don't know if anyone ever figured out if you could just use the ge throttle body with the gte tps.

Murgatroy
09-18-2014, 02:39 AM
What modification, cause I probably have the intake.

celicatuner92
09-18-2014, 02:55 AM
I think you have to grind out a small section but have to be careful not to grind too much. If you look at the 2 side by side you will see the cutout that is in the gte and not in the ge.

celicatuner92
09-18-2014, 02:58 AM
I think most of it is one here
http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37031&start=30

Murgatroy
09-18-2014, 07:38 PM
So what is the biggest eBay turbo I can slap on it and go out and race Mustangs?





/sarcasm

METDeath
09-18-2014, 07:59 PM
It's a little tight, but I think you can make this fit. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CATERPILLAR-TPS48-TURBO-CHARGER-REMAN-/400687765090?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5d4ada1662&vxp=mtr)

andy
09-18-2014, 08:33 PM
vipmetal09 (ryan) did the intake manifold mod you are discussing. Ill page him for you.

Murgatroy
09-18-2014, 09:13 PM
So I get a 14.7s guarantee that this is a power maker?

andy
09-18-2014, 09:31 PM
yup, also makes the piping run much easier.

vip09
09-18-2014, 09:38 PM
To run the 3sgte throttle body on that manifold you have to notch the manifold for the idle control valve port on the throttle body. You also have to modify the throttle body because the port for the idle adjustment screw overlaps the manifold flange. I filled it with JB weld and filed/sanded it smooth.

Murgatroy
09-18-2014, 09:59 PM
To run the 3sgte throttle body on that manifold you have to notch the manifold for the idle control valve port on the throttle body. You also have to modify the throttle body because the port for the idle adjustment screw overlaps the manifold flange. I filled it with JB weld and filed/sanded it smooth.

So it is nothing extreme, someone with half a brain and an eyeball can see what needs to be done to mate them up?

vip09
09-18-2014, 10:34 PM
Yeah, it's really obvious when you put them together.

Murgatroy
09-18-2014, 10:48 PM
Groovy. I am not sure if we will do this when we drop the engine in, or wait until later, Matt said he has an extra intake laying around. The piping for the FMIC is already set up for center feed intake.

I think the main concern to begin will be getting it in and running.

Then I need to learn about turbos. I have spent the last two nights reading stickies I have ignored for ten years...

vip09
09-19-2014, 01:08 AM
Here is what my piping looked like with that manifold.


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/vip09/Alltrac/STP63019Medium.jpg

Murgatroy
09-28-2014, 03:09 AM
I need to eliminated the AC pump.

What do I need to do?

celicatuner92
09-28-2014, 03:32 AM
Depends can do a shorter belt and use a spacer for the bolt that holds the altenator bracket or you can try to find a non ac setup

CollapsedNut
09-28-2014, 04:38 AM
I pretty sure I have the idler setup for the none AC 3s engine actually.

underscore
10-02-2014, 07:13 PM
I took a tensioner pulley from a Tercel and a belt from an 87 GTS (3SGE) with no AC, works perfectly. The main change is now you turn the tensioner bolt the other way to tighten it.

grimmythereaper
10-10-2014, 08:29 PM
when i did my swap in the vert i went to advance auto parts and got a non AC belt for a 91 all trac.

Murgatroy
10-10-2014, 09:20 PM
when i did my swap in the vert i went to advance auto parts and got a non AC belt for a 91 all trac.

That is what I am looking at, it doesn't seem that I need the idler or anything, just a new belt from the crank to the alternator and remove everything. At least that is how it looks to me.

METDeath
10-11-2014, 12:33 AM
You got a welder lined up to move the side mount, right?

Murgatroy
10-11-2014, 02:25 AM
Ages ago, yes.

CollapsedNut
10-11-2014, 04:07 AM
What kinda NC redneck aint got a welder? I've got the facilities to make a whole new bracket if we so desired. We could mill it out of aluminum to save weight. Cause racecar