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View Full Version : Codes 22, 24, and a really bad stumble



New Guy
02-02-2014, 08:51 PM
I just reset the timing belt on a new-to me 1987 GTS (chassis code ST162) as the exhaust cam was a tooth off. I turned the engine over by hand, all of the marks line up just fine.

However, it is throwing codes 22 and 24, and has a really bad stumble. It won't rev over ~4k RPM and it backfires through the intake. Buddy of mine said it sounds like it's running lean.

Where on earth is the IAT sensor mounted? And which sensor on the coolant neck is the proper temp sensor to replace for code 22?

Would like to get this puppy up and running soon.

MCcelica
02-02-2014, 09:19 PM
Intake Air Temp sensor should be on the factory air box. If you have an aftermarket intake, it could be anywhere on the tube. If it's not plugged in, that would explain that.

For the code 22, this will give you an area to look at depending on your engine: http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn56/baf00n/watertempswitch.jpg

You're looking for something that looks like this: http://cdn3.autopartsnetwork.com/images/catalog/brand/beck-arnley/640/BA_1580421.jpg

New Guy
02-02-2014, 10:01 PM
Okay.

This has a 3S-GE, I'm familiar with the 3S/5S-FE, as I run one each in my '91 Camry (stock engine) and '88 Camry All-Trac (5S swap), but I'm not sure which sensor is which on the GE stuff. It's a bit older that what I work with.

I didn't see any provisions on the factory air box for an IAT sensor but I didn't look very hard. I shall check again.


Stumble/misfire was traced to a dead injector on cylinder #3. About to go post a wanted ad for Gen 1 GE injectors...

MCcelica
02-02-2014, 11:24 PM
3sge should be the same location wise as the 3sgte. Main difference between those engines is a turbo and some electronics. Components wise should be fairly well the same.

New Guy
02-03-2014, 04:38 AM
^^^ I don't own anything with a GTE in it.

MCcelica
02-03-2014, 06:23 PM
^^^ What I'm saying is the 3sGE will have the sensor in the same spot as the GTE. As will the 5s.

New Guy
02-03-2014, 09:15 PM
I have no switches or sensors in my radiator.

I know it's on the water neck (all of the coolant temp sensors/senders/switches are) but I don't know which one I'm replacing. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the single most expensive one, because that's how my life works.

93celicaconv
02-07-2014, 02:23 PM
I have no switches or sensors in my radiator.

I know it's on the water neck (all of the coolant temp sensors/senders/switches are) but I don't know which one I'm replacing. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the single most expensive one, because that's how my life works.

For code 22, this diagram should help you locate the sensor. Remember, wiring could also be a cause.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab59/jarosin/1987CelicaGTSECTSensor_zpsdbfc5f64.jpg (http://s849.photobucket.com/user/jarosin/media/1987CelicaGTSECTSensor_zpsdbfc5f64.jpg.html)

93celicaconv
02-07-2014, 02:43 PM
For the IAT (Intake Air Temperature) Sensor, I'm not sure if the 1987 3S-GE engine had one. This engine had a MAF, which may have the air temp sensor built into it (if it relied on having an air temaperature input into the ECU). Engines that have MAP (most Toyota's of that era did) would also have an IAT to get the air mass calc's. Anyway, here is another diagram, and if the 1987 3S-GE engine would have an IAT, I would have expected to see it here, but it is not.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab59/jarosin/1987CelicaGTSMAF_zpsa1ef7bd4.jpg (http://s849.photobucket.com/user/jarosin/media/1987CelicaGTSMAF_zpsa1ef7bd4.jpg.html)

93celicaconv
02-07-2014, 02:52 PM
I would check these 2 areas out and see if you can resolve the codes being thrown. Check wiring also - sometimes with major work, wiring gets damaged and can be the cause rather than the sensors. Sometimes sensors don't get plugged back in. I've had experiences both ways.

If you get the code issues resolved, but your symptoms remain, I would check your timing again; backfiring through the intake without other known causes is often a result of the intake valve timing being too advanced or too retarded. 3S-GE engine timing is difficult in a Celica chassis, no real easy way to clearing see the cam timing mark on the intake cam when the crank is at TDC (exhaust is easier - it is more out in front). 3S-GE engines are great engines, BTW.

KoreanJoey
02-07-2014, 05:51 PM
Check distributor timing.

New Guy
02-07-2014, 06:41 PM
Ignition timing is dead on at 10* BTDC. These don't run a MAF, they run an AFM like what the Camry runs... Just sized differently. The IAT is built into it, so the whole AFM needs to be replaced. Found a used-tested good unit for $70 shipped.

Two fuel injectors were outright broken. Need to get some more hours in before I can afford those.

I suspect the badly damaged AFM is what was causing the backfiring as the engine would've been getting conflicting air flow/throttle position/O2 readings, leading to seriously messed up fuel conditions.

I will update when I get that sorted. Thanks much for the pic showing which sensor I'm replacing, that's an enormous help.

Wiring checks out, that was one of the first things I hit. The wires are all still fairly flexible, this car was pretty obviously never run very much so the wires are dried with age far more than with heat.

93celicaconv
02-07-2014, 08:00 PM
Ignition timing is dead on at 10* BTDC. These don't run a MAF, they run an AFM like what the Camry runs... Just sized differently. The IAT is built into it, so the whole AFM needs to be replaced. Found a used-tested good unit for $70 shipped.

Two fuel injectors were outright broken. Need to get some more hours in before I can afford those.

I suspect the badly damaged AFM is what was causing the backfiring as the engine would've been getting conflicting air flow/throttle position/O2 readings, leading to seriously messed up fuel conditions.

I will update when I get that sorted. Thanks much for the pic showing which sensor I'm replacing, that's an enormous help.

Wiring checks out, that was one of the first things I hit. The wires are all still fairly flexible, this car was pretty obviously never run very much so the wires are dried with age far more than with heat.

I'm not really talking about ignition timing. I'm talking about cam timing. Given one of your cams drives the distributor, it is still possible for the cam w/distributor to be off a tooth and still have the ignition timing good (the adjustment on the distributor would be way off to one end of the adjustment slots). The other cam could be off a lot w/no impact on ignition timing, given it is independently driven by the timing belt and not involved with the distributor. Just wanting you to verify your mechanical timing of both cam shafts, and just because ignition timing is good does not mean mechanical timing is.

But before I would tear apart timing covers, I would fix all your other items. If the symptoms are gone after that, I would think your mechanical timing is good and leave it be. If after all your part changes, the symptoms still exist, definitely check your mechanical timing.

New Guy
02-08-2014, 01:27 AM
For setting the cam timing, I pulled the belt and rotated the intake cam to where I could clearly see the tooth that lined up with the timing mark. I then hit that tooth with some black sharpie. The cam timing is for sure good- but I still have not replaced the upper timing cover (it's sitting in the trunk) as I want to be 100% sure the car is running properly before I button it up. Putting everything back together before it's running is the surest way to make something not work right.

The distributor is almost dead center in its adjustment range for ignition timing.

New Guy
02-16-2014, 03:44 AM
Okay. Coolant temp sensor is replaced (tested bad) but there was also a broken wire in the circuit. Fixed that and a lot of the issues cleared out... Sort of.

It was throwing a code 51 for the TPS. Got that taken care of, at least close enough to get rid of the code. I really need to pull the throttle body and clean the bajeezus out of everything so I can set it up properly.

So now I've got no codes but it still doesn't want to rev, has almost no power, and won't speed up when it's in gear. It idles smoothly and all my timing marks line up so I know that's all good, it just has no go.

I'm betting on a scuzzed up throttle body being the key source of my problems at this point. The fuel tank was drained, and I have since put a bunch of Heet in to pull any residual water out of the fuel, along with a can of Seafoam and ~5 gallons of fresh fuel.

Oh, and the cold start system isn't working... But that's no biggie. Same parts as a Camry and I have a ton of spares at home. Just need to get this running well enough that I can drive it that far.

T-spoon
02-16-2014, 04:13 AM
Clogged/bad catalytic converter will cause those symptoms too, and won't likely throw a code. AFM issues could too, but depending on the problem will throw codes, but an air leak between the AFM and the engine won't necessarily (although enough of a leak and it wouldn't run at all)

New Guy
02-16-2014, 05:51 AM
I was thinking maybe cat, but it would have to be *completely* blocked to be this bad. My '91 Camry had a ~90% blocked cat and would still run/drive and go highway speeds. This will be registered in rural NM, however, so I don't need to worry about emissions... I'll likely gut the cat (or install a bypass pipe) just for good measure.

The AFM was replaced with a used one that came out of a running car, so I know it isn't the issue.

I haven't smoke-checked the intake yet but hope to before too long. PO said it may have a vacuum leak at the power steering pump where the nipples thread into the body.

Oh, and the fuel filter is likely gunked up pretty bad. That is also going to get replaced... Still debating on whether or not I should replace the fuel pump or just clean the sock. It still pumps fine but was exposed to some nasty gas before I bought it.

CollapsedNut
02-16-2014, 06:07 AM
Sounds like a cat to me also. Run a vac test on the engine and you'll know.

New Guy
02-16-2014, 06:21 AM
Cool. What exactly will I be looking for? Really low vacuum?

It's only got 98k on it but it's entirely possible the cat is cooked. I've seen them go out in under 500 miles. :o

CollapsedNut
02-16-2014, 06:54 AM
Yeah. If your engine is having to push the exhaust out and it's getting lots of back pressure your vacuum will be out of spec.

New Guy
02-16-2014, 08:48 PM
Update!

Vacuum holds more or less steady at idle. Bring engine speed up to ~2500RPM and vacuum drops (as it's supposed to when you hit the gas) and then builds back up and holds steady for a second or two, then slowly drops until the engine suddenly bogs down and nearly stalls.

It sounds like there's a hefty exhaust leak just in front of the muffler, so I think the muffler may be collapsed internally. For good measure it's getting a bypass pipe (hooray for no emissions!) and I'm going to replace the muffler with a glasspack 'cause I can.

New Guy
02-17-2014, 05:01 AM
Okay. So the exhaust is removed from just upstream of the catalytic converter. Still won't rev.

Hmm. The catalytic converter was definitely messed up. A *bolt* fell out of it when removed. Compression across all four cylinders is nice and high... I've got good spark (verified by nearly electrocuting myself with the coil) but the plugs are dirty. I have a new set on the passenger seat. I guess I'll replace those tomorrow and see if things get better. If not, I'll check out resistance through each plug wire to make sure I have good spark to all four plugs. If that's good, then I'll replace the fuel filter (known dirty, not sure how bad) and check the fuel pump to see if the sock is plugged up.

T-spoon
02-17-2014, 05:19 AM
Triple-check your timing, including mechanical. Make sure you don't have exhaust leak before the O2 sensor

CollapsedNut
02-17-2014, 05:48 AM
Post up pics of the plugs when you pull them.

New Guy
02-17-2014, 06:00 AM
Mechanical timing is for-sure good. TPS still needs final adjustment but TB still needs to be cleaned before that. I'm hoping that's at least part of the issue.

Old plugs were standard plugs from a poor-running engine. Black, but it didn't look like it was from oil. More from running rich, but it was very powdery. I put the plugs into the boxes the new plugs come in (NGK plugs come with those little cardboard rings, which work great for preserving the condition of old plugs as they came out of the vehicle)

No exhaust leak upstream of the O2 that I can detect. I don't have a multimeter available (it will be back in the shop tomorrow) so I can't check the O2 but I will tomorrow.

I'm thinking I'll make a blockoff plate for the EGR to make sure that isn't stuck open and dumping nastiness into the intake. That does really crappy things for low engine speed performance.

When I hold the pedal to the floor, I get a weird almost dry bearing noise from the exhaust. What would cause that? Kind of a squealing noise. Definitely not bottom-end related. Oil pressure shows good and the engine itself is quiet. No rattles or knocks.

CollapsedNut
02-17-2014, 05:19 PM
Eh. With the exhaust off it could just be air flowing across something and whistling. If your egr was like mine there's an easy way to block it using a threaded plug on the head but I'd have to sit down and show you pictures and I'm at work. I'd sit down and start back probing at the ecu and check vta and idl. Check everything in the distributor too.

CollapsedNut
02-17-2014, 05:21 PM
And double check your plug wires for firing order.

New Guy
02-18-2014, 12:01 AM
The 3S-GE dumps the EGR gases into the intake via a long tube that comes back from the exhaust manifold. My plan was just to install a blockoff plate between the flange and the manifold to cut off any potential exhaust gas flow into the intake.

Does anyone have a vacuum diagram? I have a Chilton's manual that I know has one but it's not available to me at the moment.

New Guy
02-18-2014, 01:20 AM
Update: EGR valve was stuck wiiiiiide open. EGR blockoff is built and currently awaiting installation.

New Guy
02-18-2014, 05:52 AM
Triple post, eh wot?!

Final update for the night. Installed the EGR delete, capped off/rerouted the appropriate vacuum lines. Got new O2 sensor installed. Set up TPS as close to perfect as could be done with a crappy analog multimeter from RadioShack.

It will start, idle for a moment, then die. Will not rev. I know I have good spark and air is a given. I know the fuel pump works, but I'm not getting enough fuel. Ergo, fuel filter is finally done. I think the Seafoam in the tank scrubbed enough crap out of the fuel lines to finish off the filter, and now it's not building enough pressure in the fuel rail. New filter should be here in the AM along with new gaskets for the catalytic converter body. From there it's just reassembling things and hoping that the straight pipe to glasspack exhaust doesn't sound too ricey.

New Guy
02-19-2014, 01:03 AM
Quadruple post. :O

Got the exhaust put back together... That was relatively painless except for patching all the holes in the rear-most section of the pipe. Installed a glasspack to get rid of the non-factory sorta fartcan muffler. Hopefully it sounds as good as the Camry does... Shorter tube, though. Gonna be a fair amount louder.

Removed the fuel filter. That went pretty quick. I blew it out (backwards) with air, and allllll kinds of nastiness came out. Pushed the flapper door on the AFM to trick the ECU into turning on the pump and collected some of the fuel. It's brown (no good) and has little globs of water floating around in it (even less good) so I plan on draining the bottom of the tank, assuming that it has a drain.

New fuel filter didn't make it onto today's truck, so I'll have it tomorrow. Hoping this fixes some of my issues. The old filter was definitely toast, it took a huge amount of effort to blow through it. Pump pumps like a mofo though, so that's definitely good.

BabyBear
02-19-2014, 09:11 PM
I don't think fuel tanks have drains so you'll probably have to pull the tank to get all of it out. Sounds like you've got some pretty nasty crap in there lol, could definitely cause issues!

Luni
02-20-2014, 12:25 AM
I believe there are drains on these.

New Guy
02-20-2014, 02:14 AM
Welp. Overheated it. Runs, sort of. I think the t-stat may be stuck shut, though. *sigh*

Definitely down to just bad gas, though. So I guess I should probably drain the tank...

New Guy
02-20-2014, 03:30 AM
Okay. It ran until it seized. And by that I mean for maybe a couple seconds.

Yay, dead bottom end. Not sure if I should pawn it off on some sucker via craigslist or just replace the engine.

Fuck. Fuckity shit fuck. I don't have the time, money, or PATIENCE for this.

MCcelica
02-21-2014, 01:19 AM
Well that was an unexpected turn of events...

New Guy
02-21-2014, 02:15 AM
lol... Yeah. I'd run it for a total of about 15 minutes beforehand while sorting things out.

If the bearings are hosed I'm just gonna slap a 5S in there. I have the equipment to redrill the flex plate if the bolt patterns are different.

KAOS
07-24-2014, 07:01 AM
this sounds like exactly what I'm going through at the moment with my 3sge swap.

Starts, idles, REVs to around 3k sputters, backfires sounds like shit and either stalls out or returns to idle.

Replaced the fuel filter, rechecked the mechanical timing, and checked the distributor/spark. All good. Problem is, the CPU doesn't have any codes to help troubleshoot.

Did you have any resolution to this?

93celicaconv
07-24-2014, 06:07 PM
this sounds like exactly what I'm going through at the moment with my 3sge swap.

Starts, idles, REVs to around 3k sputters, backfires sounds like shit and either stalls out or returns to idle.

Replaced the fuel filter, rechecked the mechanical timing, and checked the distributor/spark. All good. Problem is, the CPU doesn't have any codes to help troubleshoot.

Did you have any resolution to this?

What year Celica with the 3S-GE do you have?

What are you getting for timing, using a timing light and the instructions on the sticker under the hood?

KAOS
07-24-2014, 08:22 PM
What year Celica with the 3S-GE do you have?

What are you getting for timing, using a timing light and the instructions on the sticker under the hood?

Timing is good, 10 degrees with check connector bridged. Firing order correct - spark plug wires are all good. If you unplug each one of the wires it definitely changes the way the engine runs, so it is idling on all 4 cylinders. We had to take the timing belt off to deal with an oil leak, and it had the same misfire before and after. I triple checked the cam timing when the belt went back on.

No codes, even when I try the diagnostic mode. the CEL will flash when it misfires and hits this weird 2500 - 3000 RPM rev 'limit' but no codes are thrown. It will drive the wheels in 5th (car is on a hoist) so it runs fine under load, but has the same stumble/rev limit at 2500/3000.

Also loud backfiring out the exhaust, and the intake vacuum 'pulses' to atmospheric when it hits this rev limit. Plug gaps are fine but plugs are a little black. Seems like an ignition problem? Has new plugs, cap and rotor. Was going to try an igniter/coil assy from a known working ST205, also different plug wires. We also have another ECU to check with.

It runs beautifully right up until you hit this weird rev limit/misfire point. Starts right up, idles nice and smooth.

KAOS
07-24-2014, 08:23 PM
Just copied that from my OT - http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?58662-Issue-with-3rd-Gen-3SGE-swap-please-help!

Thanks in advance!

KAOS
07-24-2014, 08:24 PM
What year Celica with the 3S-GE do you have?



Engine, Harness, ECU: 94-95 ST202
Chassis: 94 ST204 (cdn "GT-S")

93celicaconv
07-27-2014, 03:08 AM
Engine, Harness, ECU: 94-95 ST202
Chassis: 94 ST204 (cdn "GT-S")

OK. The 1994 Celica ST204 is specific to North America, and had the 5S-FE engine in it.

The 3S-GE engine from 1994 (ST202) was offered in Europe & Japan only. Given there were differences in emissions equipment between North American & Europe/Japan, does your swapped 3S-GE have the Europe/Japan emissions setup on it (not the North American)? Did all the ST202 wiring harness connect to something in your ST204 chassis?

VavAlephVav
08-03-2014, 10:53 PM
http://www.toptiergas.com/why.html

run Top Tier Gasoline. that's even better than fuel additives. I've also once used Seafoam in a crankcase and it knocked so much crap loose it ruined the motor.
maybe its good to run just a little seafoam once in a while, if its fairly clean anyway. but once you've got an old motor with lots of gunk in it you really don't want to knock all of that stuff loose O.o