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View Full Version : Help me design an audio system for my miata. Calling captain John and lunikins.



Hipster Lawrence
06-30-2013, 07:01 PM
Requirements:
$1000 budget
iPhone capable HU (cd player not required) 3 sets of pre outs
4 channel amp to start.
8" door drivers (not sure if I should go coax, Midbass or even subs)
2" tweeters or mids, maybe I can cram a bigger speaker in there.
loud it's a convertible.
No distortion at loud volume
Good Midbass, I'm a metal head. That should tell you al you need to know. Also iron maiden uses the bass as a "lead rhythm instrument. So I need to be able to hear that clearly.

not sure about:
Crossovers
Adding a 3rd set of speakers to fill in the gap between the Midbass and tweets.
Eq
Running the tweets off a separate amp channel or one channel with a crossover. So I could add a 3rd set of speakers somewhere.

Not a concern: perfect SQ, it's a car, I have a kickass set of cans and an even more kickass home system. If I want critical listening I can do that at home.

Shadowlife25
07-01-2013, 08:42 AM
Step 1: Understand that you do not need any rear fill. Excepting a sub if you so wish.
Step 2: You do not need more than 100 watts per driver.
Step 3: Better efficiency in a driver, all other specifications taken in to account, is always a great choice.

For tweeters, you really need to use a crossover network or at least some kind of choke that dials them in. You ideally do not want your tweets playing down below 2kHz.
Mids and midbass are two very different beasts when it comes to a crossover network. Check specs on the drivers you choose and keep in mind that spending some extra cash on a nice electronic active crossover unit may be a really good choice. One that allows for bandpass configurations would be ideal.
For a solid 4channel amplifier, I would give some thought to an Alpine PDX series or the JL HD or Slash lines. The newer MB Quart stuff is decent as well. But for an environment like the Miata where space is already at a premium, I would seriously consider the Alpine PDX series. The nice thing with those, is that they can be stacked vertically as well and in fact are designed with that in mind. Not to mention the very small footprint they have.
If you want real solid midbass, go with a dedicated midbass driver. You just need to look at the FR and range graphs for the drivers you are looking into. Most woofers should fit the bill decently.
You ideally want them to play between 80Hz and up to no more than 1kHz on the high end.
For mids, a good size to fill the gap without taking up too much space would be a 5.25" driver mounted in the kick area in a pod if you can swing that. Sound and imaging in that area are much better than you would think. Mids should be from about 500Hz on the low end and up to about 2500Hz up top so that you have a natural slope that compliments your tweeters.
Tweeters I see you mentioned a 2" unit. That is essentially a large format tweeter. While these can sound fantastic depending on what you go with, The standard fare in the 1" (max" dome styles are fairly inexpensive and readily available. A possibility is going with a set of horns mounted under the dash area, though they tend to be pretty damn pricey anymore.

Essentially, everything I recommended above is just assuming that you are running a front stage only (nothing behind you). It is WAY easier to get a great sounding system using this approach, but driver selection and crossover frequencies really matter here.
I run a very similar setup in my car and it sounds great. Especially when you consider that well, it's in a car. ;) :D

I am sure Rob can chime in with HU recommendations and John can drop some as well. I am behind the times on what is the newest thing on the market. I have had the same Eclipse CD7000 HU for years now. Never had reason to change it up since it does pretty much all the things I need. (Active crossover, 3 way or 4 way setup, bandpass x-over, parametric EQ etc.) Only downside is that it needs a separate unit for iPod controls and it honestly isn't that great. (the iPod add on) Mainly because it's another little box to wire in.

Anyhow man, hope this gave you a couple things to consider in your search. :)
- Mario

Shadowlife25
07-01-2013, 08:43 AM
PS. If you are listening to stuff in anything less than 320k mp3 or ALAC or FLAC (not supported by Apple) then the sound will suffer from all the compression.

METDeath
07-01-2013, 09:23 AM
Also, single or double din?
Do you want it to not scream steal me?
Removable face plate?
Marine grade?

Also, check with Cappy, he may still have his Marine Alpine PDX 5 from his convertible.

Hipster Lawrence
07-02-2013, 03:13 AM
Single din.
Since its a ragtop it needs to look basic/ don't steal me. Removable faceplate would be nice.
Dont think I need marine grade. The car stays dry inside.
Also I think I'm rethinking the no CD player thing.

I do listen to mostly mp3/AAC. But I've been importing all my new music at a much higher bitrate than I used too. Ill eventually convert everything to apple lossless format, but I need to pick up an iPod classic and a new had before I can start that project.

Again SQ is not a primary concern. Lots of wind noise, it needs to be loud and free of distortion mostly.

There's no rear speakers. Just the 8" door speakers and 2" tweeters. Mounted up high. I considered getting a "full range" 2" speaker and some sort of 8" mid bass with a coax mounted or seperate 1" to fill in more of the highs.

I could probably find room for some under dash horns. But there's no way in hell I'm getting kick panel speakers in there.

I see you're suggesting $500 dollar amps. I figured $300 for a HU. That doesn't leave much room for speakers. My car has the no highs no lows must be Bose now. 1/2 ohm speakers. I have to do speakers and head unit together. This makes it tough to do in stages.

Shadowlife25
07-02-2013, 05:32 AM
The amplifiers can be found used and in good shape pretty often, only reason I suggested them as they are a bit pricey. They do however have pretty impressive power and good heat dissipation and a very small form factor, making them an ideal candidate for installation in such a small vehicle type. (roadster)
If you can't fit in kicks (not sure they make an Q-Form application for that vehicle) then do try to go with a decent full range-ish 8" driver. For tweeters, you can build in pods for tweeters for DIRT cheap. Literally some pipe dope and the proper sized pvc pipe/end cap combo with some allthread mounted into the A pillar and you are solid with some fantastic imaging to boot.
Also remember that there is nothing "wrong" with using an 8ohm driver for your mains. Especially if they have a decent level of efficiency. Then you can bridge them at the amplifier to present a 4ohm nominal load and you are still golden. I simply mention this as you can find some pretty fantastic 8ohm drivers for a relatively low price. Check out places like partsexpress.com and madisound.com.
For tweeters, I run a pair of Seas Neos and they sound fantastic though the angle is important when mounting them or you lose too much to reflections. That being said, Check those places out and see what you think. Lots of options and no need to break the bank.
Your HU and Amp should be the best parts of your system. Anything else will only build from there after all. :)

Hipster Lawrence
07-02-2013, 06:22 PM
So You're saying run a 8" full range and a 1" A-pillar tweeter, and the most full range 2" i can fit in the stock location? it seems silly to not run the stock tweeter location at all.

As for crossovers You're saying run a HU with a built in crossover? Or a separate crossover like comes with a component set?

Focal makes a nice 8" 1" component set with crossovers for around $300. I may go that route and get a 2" midrange for the stock location.

So I would only need a 4 channel amp to run a setup as described, correct? I also plan on adding a sub in the passenger floorboard, sort of make it shaped like a rally codriver footrest. should I go ahead and look for a 5 channel amp? or will a cheaper monoblock amp push an 8" sub ok?


Could you link me to a site that explains some of the terms in your first post in layman terms? I have no idea the difference between passive and active and electronic crossovers, or what bandpass
capability is.

I wont be starting this for a pretty long while. I have lots of other projects on this car that will take priority. But since I'm a complete car audio noob i wanted to have time to research everything, do it once do it right.

So what I think ill do is start collecting parts and install it all at once. The Bose isn't horrible but for a "premium" sound system with a name as "respected" as Bose is its severely disappointing.

david in germany
07-02-2013, 07:03 PM
I would mention that depth may be an issue for the 8", and the option of a 3 way component set and find a location for a 4" mid since you have to much separation with an 8" and a tweeter but then again, in the title, you didn't ask for my help.

Hipster Lawrence
07-02-2013, 07:39 PM
I'll take whatever help i can find. I really dont think i can find room for a 4" speaker though...

grimmythereaper
07-03-2013, 03:24 AM
ill make it simple

HU- deh80prs
speakers- spr60c with sps610 in the rear (not sure if the miata has rear speakers?) if not i would go with mid lvl polk componets (cant think of the part # rite now) or spx17pro with a set of spr60 for mid bass
SUB- sws 1223d in a ported box (sealed box will give a tighter hit if you want that) (that sub is 1 ohm stable and gets loud) or a 12w3v3 from JL audio
AMP- memphis belle (5 channel and the last amp u will ever need)

that puts u a little under 1000 w/o any wiring or a little over 1000 depending on witch generation memphis belle amp u get :)

grimmythereaper
07-03-2013, 03:33 AM
srry just reread ur post about no rear speakers, is there room for speakers in the center console area or maybe inbetween the seats like a viper? and yes bose sounds like ass its always to little bass of all kinds,

david in germany
07-03-2013, 10:23 AM
ill make it simple

SUB- sws 1223d in a ported box (sealed box will give a tighter hit if you want that) (that sub is 1 ohm stable and gets loud) or a 12w3v3 from JL audio


Subs do not handle ohms it is a measurement of their resistance. That are one ohm or they are 2 ohm etc but they to not handle a resistance. Amps on the other hand will or will not operate with a specific resistive load but those loads change based on the frequencies, enclosure type etc.
If he wants loud he needs to run a sub ported (normally)

I think you will do better overall by ditching the 8" in the door idea. Look for a good set of 6.5" componenets and make a baffle for the 8" location. The baffle will not only strenghten the door but there will be less seporation in frequncies between the tweeter and mid bass.

Think about the system 10 in the celica they could have used the 8" location and tweeter but there was too much lost frequencies wihout the 4" to pick up the loss.
In my BMW I am running it the same. 8" underseat woofers, 4" mids in the doors and 1" tweeters.

MCcelica
07-03-2013, 11:40 AM
I did it a little differently. Obviously my line of sight speakers in the front (Tweeters, and mids), and they're pushing out the majority of the sound. I do have rear speakers for midbass (less of a line of sight item), but they are fairly dialed down on the amp. Then the subs in the rear. I have two 12's back there, which is entirely too much sub for the Celica, but since I got 'em like that from a dude I used to work with, I didn't see a need to mess with them. I will say that the amp on those is only at about 1/3 gain and the sub control on the deck is at 0. It still rounds out to make the Black Album feel like Bones Jones just crushed your skull at volume 20 out of 50. My HU is Marine grade though. As long as we're being honest, though, I liked it because the box said "Alpine Marine"...

MCcelica
07-03-2013, 12:01 PM
I didn't spend over $800 either. But I also wasn't starting from scratch. The previous owner was kind enough to leave behind the front and rear speakers, the tweeters, and the 4 channel amp that powers all of the above (the tweeters are tied into the same channel as the fronts, but he put a crossover on them so as to only send the high's signal up to the tweeters). The rear speakers, despite being nice, are very low. You really don't even notice the difference when they're covered up physically.

Hipster Lawrence
07-03-2013, 01:05 PM
I think you will do better overall by ditching the 8" in the door idea. Look for a good set of 6.5" componenets and make a baffle for the 8" location. The baffle will not only strenghten the door but there will be less seporation in frequncies between the tweeter and mid bass.

Think about the system 10 in the celica they could have used the 8" location and tweeter but there was too much lost frequencies wihout the 4" to pick up the loss.

While I understand what you are saying and I'm not opposed to using a 6.5, why is it that with most home speakers they just have a woofer and smallish tweeter and do fine.


I have audiophile quality tannoy 609s at home they have a dual contentric speaker, it's an 8" woofer with a horn type tweeter in the middler of the woofer. The woofer literally moves around the tweeter. I know the tweeter does only high frequencies because the speakers are bi wire or bi amp capable, meaning I can amp the woofer and tweeter separately if I wanted to. If I remove the jumper and just amp the woofer they are still pretty good sounding speakers. Vocals are still clear, and they carry some higher mid range frequencies. You don't hear cymbal crashes and things like that too well. These 8" speakers are still capable of producing enough lows that for most music other than hip hop and metal you almost don't need a subwoofer with them.

What makes my tannoy 8"s different than an 8" speaker in my door.

This is what my tannoys look like. This is all there is. No mid size speaker.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/kmlively/02E71809-CFD6-4D71-BE74-430E3D610468-1057-0000025D24CC9067.jpg

MCcelica
07-03-2013, 01:51 PM
My Onkyo has tweets, mids, and midbass on the main speakers...

Hipster Lawrence
07-03-2013, 03:03 PM
^yeah but onkyo aren't what they used to be. These tannoys would blow your mind. Right now I'm pushing them with a dennon ht receiver, but you should hear them with a proper power amp like cappy has...

Those speakers were $1500 a pair, in 1994.

david in germany
07-03-2013, 07:19 PM
A speaker in direct alignment is going to sound better always than separates. I think one of the reasons you like them so much is the lack of midrange in them. They produce (most likely) less mid but better highs and bass like most people want and more like a natural EQ.

Hipster Lawrence
07-03-2013, 07:50 PM
To my ears they produce phenomenal midrange and midbass. The highs are almost too much. the mids and highs on those things are amazing. What they lack is low end bass response, you can hear the bass "fall out" when listening to certain hip hop songs, sucks because my shitty ass HT subwoofer doesn't really fill the gap too well. But for Rock and metal they do great. Acoustic music and jazz OMFG dude the speakers sound like you have the band in the room with you.

The guy that sold me the speakers is a full on audiophile, he as a room in his house dedicated to listening to music. The reason he quit using the 8" Tannoys was only due to their lack of bass response. He replaced them with speakers that are identical in design but have a 10" woofer, and a larger cabinet.


If you are into this kind of thing you can look at this graph for my 609s

http://www.organmatters.co.uk/tannoy609.jpg

david in germany
07-03-2013, 08:09 PM
They designed those drivers well!. A typical setup with an 8" and tweeter will not have that smooth of a response. The natural drop in the mid range I was talking about can be seen around 400hz on those but those are are the exception! I can almost guarantee you will be hard presses to reproduce that same response in your car without have a specialized matched driver set. I will see if I can get my termlab hooked up and get a measurement o my front stage of the BMW and post it up.

Hipster Lawrence
07-03-2013, 10:25 PM
Looking at this component set, and putting some sort of 2" midrange type speaker from parts express into the stock location.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-w3bX0hFITp6/p_091IS200/Focal-Integration-IS-200.html#details-tab

maybe a 2" like this or similar
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1042
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-807

grimmythereaper
07-04-2013, 12:05 AM
if u can i would go to a place where u can listen to any speaker first. focals are a great speaker and never heard a bad speaker from them, but like i said i would be ify on a speaker i couldnt here first, also have u thought about an 8 inch sub some where in the cab? and 6 inch speakers in the doors with tweeters in the doors as well?

Hipster Lawrence
07-04-2013, 01:09 PM
if u can i would go to a place where u can listen to any speaker first. focals are a great speaker and never heard a bad speaker from them, but like i said i would be ify on a speaker i couldnt here first, also have u thought about an 8 inch sub some where in the cab? and 6 inch speakers in the doors with tweeters in the doors as well?

That's a thought. I really don't think the trunk is the place to put a sub in this car. But a footwell sub will probably work good, I was planning on a 8" ported box sub but adding it later after I see how the system sounds without it.

I'm sure there is a place around me that I can listen to various speakers, including the focals I linked to. The stock 2" tweets are in the door already. And the main reason I wasn't to use an 8" in the door is because that's the stock configuration. I may build a baffle and use a 6.5".

MCcelica
07-05-2013, 10:34 AM
^yeah but onkyo aren't what they used to be. These tannoys would blow your mind. Right now I'm pushing them with a dennon ht receiver, but you should hear them with a proper power amp like cappy has...

Those speakers were $1500 a pair, in 1994.

Mine is danger close to 20 years old. Lol love that thing. Still hits like Mike Tyson. So when the wife makes me replace it in the house? It'll take a trip over to the garage. That way I can blast stuff out there without having to use the car's system. Lol

MCcelica
07-05-2013, 10:37 AM
I may build a baffle and use a 6.5".

I actually like that idea because you can add resonance while potentially making it sound less sloppy than an 8.

grimmythereaper
07-05-2013, 04:18 PM
That's a thought. I really don't think the trunk is the place to put a sub in this car. But a footwell sub will probably work good, I was planning on a 8" ported box sub but adding it later after I see how the system sounds without it.

I'm sure there is a place around me that I can listen to various speakers, including the focals I linked to. The stock 2" tweets are in the door already. And the main reason I wasn't to use an 8" in the door is because that's the stock configuration. I may build a baffle and use a 6.5".

going 6 inch speaks in the door will open u to a bigger selection as far as speakers go, also kicker makes a 6 inch slim sub that sounds really good its part of their cvt line up. i also think phonix gold makes a 2 inch tweeter

Hipster Lawrence
07-05-2013, 04:44 PM
I'm gonna go listen to some speakers soon and decide.

I've just never gotten much lower mid frecuencies from any of the 6.5" speakers I've had over the years, so I'm reluctant to go that route. But if I don't like ten they could always go into the accord...same could go for the 8" midbass speakers I'm pretty sure if an 8" doesnt work in the miata it could go in the rear deck of the accord.

I'm gonna get under the dash next week and look to see if I can find room fo some 4" drivers, kind of like where they are in the celica. Is there any reason I couldn't put them in the console firing out towards the doors? I bet they'd fit there.

david in germany
07-05-2013, 05:18 PM
I think you would be better off looking for the clearance to fit them in the doors with the 8's snd tweets.

Sent from my GT-S7710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

The Captain
07-05-2013, 06:26 PM
While all the audiophile advice is valid the fact remains that a moving car (especially a convertible) is a horrific platform for hi fidelity. What sounds great sitting engine off in the garage doesn't translate to 70mph on the interstate. Personally I think you need to over emphasize the frequencies that are masked by all the noise. Midrange always comes beaming through. It's the highs and the lows that get lost in the cacophony of an open top car. Verts are an added challenge because they are two cars. Top up and top down. Highs that sound balanced top down will be overpowering top up because of reflectivity. Ideally the tweets should be mounted in the corners of the dash (in a vert) so the output is near the same top up or down, it reflects off the windshield and it's in the bubble of air. Here comes the bitching.

I'm sure the audiophiles will bitch about my choices (like I'm not one). But you have to accept reality. It's not a listening room. Compromise is the order of the day. No, you can't point source. No perfect separation. No, you won't hear a recording of a feather landing on a pillow. You want it loud, clear and with as much the full range of frequencies you can get.

http://www.amazon.com/Renegade-RX830-8-Inch-Range-Speakers/dp/B0045V5WLC

Take the mid-tweets out like in my vert build thread.

Stick a mid-tweet in the stock location with a simple inline filter (to block lower frequencies that they can't handle). Something that goes down to at least 2.5k at the bottom of it's frequency range.

Find somewhere to put a sub. Any sub to reinforce the doors speakers. Bass disappeared in my vert at speed.

3 channel amp. http://www.sonicelectronix.com/cat_i965_3-channel-amplifiers.html etc...

Any head unit that bypasses the ipods DAC.

If you had and LS460, Bentley, or something similarly silent running I'd go a different route and money would obviously be no object. You're just not going to hear the difference with a noise floor that starts at the lawn mower level. Keep it simple.

Hipster Lawrence
07-05-2013, 09:36 PM
Thanks for the advice John. A few questions.

Did you remove the tweets and mids from the speakers for sq or clearance because I don't think clearance will be an issue with my car at all. These speakers http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0007L8BBM/ref=pd_aw_sbs_e_1?pi=SL500_SS115
are the standard go to for the bosectemy on m.net. So I'll probably go with those because I know for sure they'll fit, even though they probably are made by the same Chinese 8 year olds.

So three channel amp meaning just bi wire the seprate mid/tweet with the 8s?

I assume any amp that takes the line level output from the iPod would be bypassing the shitty DAC? As in not using the headphone jack?

As for overpowering highs with the top down, I rarely drive this car with it up. Basically if its raining. Its a manual top so it goes up and down in a matter of seconds at a stop sign. Besides it gets a tad clasturphobic with it up. This car is much smaller inside than even my mk1 was, even though its a bigger car.

So given that info would you make a set of componets with those 8s and run some 1" pod tweets in the a pillar area? Or am I just mindfucking this thing?

Subwoofer. Someone mentioned a 6" sub. Is that a viable option? It will most likely go in the passenger foot well, so size is a concern. I had first considered an 8" but 1 or 2 6s might be a better option since the wifey needs to strech her legs a little because she has bad knees now from goodman roller derby.

The Captain
07-06-2013, 12:54 AM
Lanzars probably just as good. I did it because I didn't want the sound projecting to my knees. You can always try it first.

3 channel amp. Simply wire the tweets in parallel and one channel for the sub.

1" pod tweets would be fine. A tweet that can handle a lot of midrange would be better.

6" sub is better than none. No under-seat room?

Hipster Lawrence
07-06-2013, 02:09 AM
Nah the seats literally sit on the floor. Guys loose headroom sometimes with racing seats. But I'll research box requirements for various 8" and 6" subs before I decide. It's not like I couldn't just take the box out if I have a passenger who needs legroom. I bet even a 8" footwell sub will take up less space than the pedals do...

So why do you suggest 3 way speakers and usin just the woofer section, rater than just a midbass driver?

Luni
07-08-2013, 12:18 AM
Pretty much most stuff Id talk about is covered already.

Nobody has recommended a GREAT head unit. Ill do that.

Kenwood KDC X997

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KDCX997/Kenwood-Excelon-KDC-X997.html?tp=5684

For the money, with the feature set, and the sound quality etc. You cant beat it. It has bluetooth, it auto pairs to your iphone via usb, the headunit supports Siri, etc.

As for speakers, Ill put in my .02. You want something BRIGHT, for when the top is down and you want it to have a good bass response. Im running Infinity Kappa Perfects in my Celica and my MR2. In the Celica, it actually sounds damn near PERFECT with the windows down. Its a little bright when the windows are up, but in a convertible environment, those speakers are AWESOME. Also I can probably get you a smoking deal on a set of some if youre willing to wait until around christmas/new year. Call me for details on that if you want. Amplifiers, In a small car like yours, I recommend something with a small footprint but lots of power, I like the Alpine PDX line. Personally if space isnt at a premium I like JL Audio Slash stuff (I personally run a 350/4 for fronts/rears and a 250/1 for my sub). For my headunit I run a Kenwood KDC X996 (997 just replaced it) and I love it.

I used to be an Eclipse audio snob but theyre pretty much out of the game these days so I had to find something with a good feature set that I like, and the Kenwood has filled that gap quite nicely. One other thing I love about the Kenwood line is you can put a bunch of files onto a USB flash drive, and run their program which will create a database file for the headunit to read, and it will display them like an ipod would, you know, artist, genre, song, etc using ID3 tagging like Apple stuff does.

If you want, based on what Ive listed, I could still prolly put together a head unit, 4 channel amplifier, and a set of speakers for you that would do what you want. Do you have ANY subwoofer options in a Miata at all?

Hipster Lawrence
07-08-2013, 03:41 AM
Luni, I'm more inclined to run an 8" door speaker because that's what size it has now, looks like infinity makes a 6x8 that would probably be a nice fit. Would you be in the downsize to 6.5" camp?

What did you think of the system in John's vert?

For a sub I think the trunk is out of the question, no room under the seats, so it's either a footwell or behind the passenger seat powered sub.

I had an eclipse HU in my 03 civic si and loved it. So I'll go with that unit for sure.

Hipster Lawrence
07-08-2013, 04:21 AM
Here's some of the 8s I'm looking at.

Cheap, like John suggested.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0007L8BBM/ref=pd_aw_sbs_e_1?pi=SL500_SS115

8" 2 way. Bi ampable and with a crossover can me made a component set.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_67909_Precision-Power-PM2.804.html

These focals are seeming like pretty good value the more I think about it.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-CIR7kSqNk2S/p_091IS200/Focal-Integration-IS-200.html#details-tab

I could run the focals bi amped as well and put the tweets on the a pillar or up on the dash, then I could still run a 2" midrange speaker similar to this in the stock location
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1042

I'd need 2 4 channel amps to do this. One for the focals and a smaller one for the mids and a single sub. Either way I'd end up with 2 amps. I'm not too worried about the space they'd take up in the trunk.

Luni
07-08-2013, 07:06 PM
With those Focals bi-amped you wouldnt need that 2 inch driver.

You would also want to get yourself a nice electronic crossover. Or a headunit thats capable of 3 way output (my old Eclipse CD7000 did this. One set of preamps was bass, one was midrange, one was tweet).

Hipster Lawrence
07-09-2013, 12:04 AM
Like this?

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_20603KX3/Kicker-KX3.html

Just use the front output for the mids and the rear for the tweets and run a 4 channel amp? Just don't fuck with the fader control on the HU? Would I bypass the built passive crossovers in the speakers? I assume not.

Then add a 1 channel amp for the sub later I guess? The only 2 channel crossovers I see are for highs and subs.

Luni
07-09-2013, 06:04 AM
Actually if you used that, you WOULD bypass the passive crossovers for the speakers. Then you could run a 5 channel amp. 4 "noise" channels for your front mids/tweets, and the sub channel will let you run subs later on if you wanted to.

Or you could get some 4 inch components (or design your own) and run the sub channel to the 8s in the doors?

Just throwin out some ideas.

Or you could look for an Eclipse CD 7000 or CD 7200 MKii on ebay as they will do what you want. Some of the newer Pioneers will too.

Hipster Lawrence
07-12-2013, 01:47 PM
Check this out.

http://www.miata.net/hakuna/subspeak.html

The Captain
07-12-2013, 02:13 PM
I like it. Just have to find free air subs.

Hipster Lawrence
07-13-2013, 03:16 AM
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_020CZ702/Clarion-CZ702.html?showAll=N&search=Cz702&skipvs=T#details-tab

This unit seems to do it all. Active capable front stage. Hpf for the tweets, hpf/lpf for mids, and lpf for subs. All for less coin than the kenwood. Looks like this is the one to get.

METDeath
07-13-2013, 04:11 AM
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_020CZ702/Clarion-CZ702.html?showAll=N&search=Cz702&skipvs=T#details-tab

This unit seems to do it all. Active capable front stage. Hpf for the tweets, hpf/lpf for mids, and lpf for subs. All for less coin than the kenwood. Looks like this is the one to get.

Bonus, cheaper on Amazon and they are an authorized dealer (just make sure you buy the one sold by Amazon, not another vendor.

Shadowlife25
07-21-2013, 03:55 AM
Larry, another recommendation for tweeters that I would like to put forward is a set of VIFA Ring Radiators. They sound fantastic.
I would have mentioned the Eclipse CD7000 or the CD7200MkII but those may be out of your price range. They do allow for a full active 3 way setup though, which is really nice since you have all the crossovers you need built in to the HU itself. Not sure which other HU's do that.
The Alpine PDX amplifiers or the JL slash amps are great choices as well.
I see someone mentioned the Memphis Belle 5ch amp... The old version of that is amazingly powerful, but it is also over 2ft long so with space at a premium, I wouldn't go that route.

david in germany
07-23-2013, 05:27 AM
Mario, I have heard good things about those tweets. I wanted to try them but I still have 9 furlough days till October so extra money is no longer there. What would you compare them to? I am running mb quart old school tweets at the moment.

Shadowlife25
07-23-2013, 03:45 PM
Hey David :)

I can't honestly say what I would compare them to, but they sounded fantastic in the couple setups I heard them in. Sweet even.
As for FR graphs, I don't have another that I could make an honest comparison to since my experience with some brands is limited.
All I can say, is that I liked them very much, if that counts for something.
The ones I currently run in my car are a set of Seas Neo's. Pretty darn good all things considered, and relatively inexpensive as well.
I say as good as can be considered since I am running them off axis in my setup so things are far from ideal. (It's in a car so... go figure :D )

Oh one more thing David... My screen name elsewhere is ECLIPSEsqfan. ;) Greetings brother.

david in germany
07-24-2013, 05:32 AM
Hey David :)


Oh one more thing David... My screen name elsewhere is ECLIPSEsqfan. ;) Greetings brother.

Clears that one up!

Shadowlife25
07-28-2013, 06:08 AM
Clears that one up!

:D Funny how small the interwebs become when you have shared passions.

Luni
07-28-2013, 08:57 AM
Dont buy a Kenwood x997. The x996 is still a great headunit though. I rescind my previous recommendation of one.

Hipster Lawrence
07-31-2013, 04:21 PM
Dont buy a Kenwood x997. The x996 is still a great headunit though. I rescind my previous recommendation of one.

I'm going with that clarion unit, since its active capable. Unless I come across something better before I get the money for the system saved up. Problem is I gotta basically do speakers and head unit and amp at once because the current 8s are 1/2 ohm Bose speakers, and there is an amp that run the speakers. So unless I want to run temporary wires I can't even run the speakers off the HU.

I just put tires, shocks, a clutch, waterpump, radiator, floor ats and steering wheel in the thing, as well as tires on my wife's jeep, rebuilt starter and alternator on my accord. So I'm pretty much broke for a minute. I'll probably start saving for this project sometime after Christmas. I've got a bunch of nice speaker wire and RCA cables and some other stuff I just pulled out of a 72 GTO though. So that'll save me some $.

First I'm going to get the HU and the speakers

Luni
07-31-2013, 06:00 PM
Keep an eye out for an old CD 7000 Eclipse in the meantime.

Luni
07-31-2013, 06:12 PM
Ive got an old hipster approved Eclipse HU but it only plays CDs and has an aux line in. It doesnt even decode MP3s. It sounds amazing though. And it has an internal amp so you could install it in the meantime till you can afford to buy your upgrade or whatever.

Id ship it down to you if you wanted to rock it. I aint using it.

Luni
07-31-2013, 06:13 PM
Oh, nevermind, you would lose your door speakers.

Hipster Lawrence
08-09-2013, 04:05 PM
Ok so my left speaker quit working and i pulled the door panel to see what the problem was and it turns out I have a set of Boston Acoustics components. I can only assume they are running on the bose amp that was meant to run 1/2 ohm speakers. It looks like they cut the wire to the tweeter altogether. It was obviously done by a professional shop too...The bose amp is 4 channel so presumably it has crossovers built in. Its a miracle I have any high frequencies at all, and this also explains the lack of punch at high volume.

The speakers look to be pretty old and are in OK shape so I'll probably just keep those for a while and upgrade my head unit. and run the speakers off that and see how it sounds.

Luni
08-09-2013, 05:19 PM
Ok, so revisiting the headunit thing, do you want me to send you a headunit? I have 2 eclipses laying around. BabyBear has a Kenwood X995 laying around also.

Hipster Lawrence
08-10-2013, 03:08 AM
Damn the x995 would probably work fine and I wouldn't need to buy anything else. I'd be willing to buy it off him, but as I said I've had to do lots of repairs to the fagmobile, like I've spent about $1200 on it since I bought it, between that and driving 2300 miles for iron maiden concerts my disposable income is pretty much nil. If he'd be wiling to send it to me I'd pay him a reasonable price as soon as I get my shit together, but that won't be til after Christmas at the soonest and at the dragon at the latest.

Shadowlife25
08-29-2013, 07:42 AM
Just checking in for any updates. :)

Oh and thought I would share this nice deal on some amps on another board.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/153392-older-alpine-amps-4-7-still-bnib.html

Luni
08-29-2013, 10:45 PM
Ill bet hed be willing to do that for you Larry. Hes a pretty nice guy if he likes you.

Hipster Lawrence
11-16-2013, 05:38 AM
Ok I've got this mostly figured out.

Focal is200 components. (8" woofer 1.5" tweeter) tweeters on the dash on closeout for $170

CDT HD2 2" midrange in the stock tweeter location. $80 refurbished

Clarion cz702 active headunit running in active 3 way. $150

No sub (sorry John there's just no room)

I've done lots of reading and think that this is exactly the setup I want. I still have questions regarding amplifiers though.

How much power should I run to these speakers? They all are rated for around 100wpc.

Would 75 wpc rms be enough?

Should I run all the same wattage and just play with the gains, or should the midbass and mids get more wattage?

I'm torn between a sweet deal on some 75wpc focal amps, a couple class d PPI amps that are 150w x4 and 80w x2 and a soundstream 6 channel amp that's I think 80x4 and 150x2.

Thoughts?

Shadowlife25
11-16-2013, 11:33 PM
Get something that will leave you a decent amount of headroom ampwise.
Make sure that you check the ratings on the amplifiers as well. For instance, if an amp is rated at 75w rms @2 ohms, that may not be the best choice if you are running 4ohm drivers and don't have enough channels to bridge them. Get what I mean?
I guess what I am saying is, post specs for the drivers you are looking at and then consider carefully what amplifier will best suit your needs.

If the drivers are all rated at about 100wpc, just be sure whether it is rms or max. If it is 100wpc MAX, then any of your choices listed above should do nicely.

Hipster Lawrence
11-17-2013, 12:12 AM
So basically match the max power of the driver to the RMS power of the amp? But more is ok?

The 8s and the 2s are actually 160 watts max and the 1.5 focal tweeter is 100 watts max. So 75wpc probably won't cut it then huh? Sucks cause woofersetc has a package deal on those focal amps that are both 75wpc and they're dead sexy.

I'll probably go with the PPI phantom series. Class D 145x4 for the mids and tweets and 190x2 for the 8s.

Hipster Lawrence
11-17-2013, 12:14 AM
8" midbass data sheet (PDF) http://www.focal.com/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=2007

Tweeter data sheet PDF http://www.focal.com/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=3127


2" mid product page. No graph is available unfortunately. http://www.cdtaudio.com/sep_components/tweeters/hd2bl.htm


Focal amps http://www.ebay.com/itm/pkg-FOCAL-SOLID-4-SOLID-2-6-CHANNELS-700-WATT-CAR-AMPLIFIER-PACKAGE-BLACK-/400570833072?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item5d43e1d8b0&vxp=mtr

PPI 600.2 http://precisionpower.com/store/products/amplifiers/phantom/p600-2.html

PPI 900.4 http://precisionpower.com/store/products/amplifiers/phantom/p600-2-8.html

david in germany
11-17-2013, 11:02 AM
I suggest that you try to match speaker rms with rms rating of the amp as closely as you can. Don't worry about max rms, it is typically 2x rms.

Shadowlife25
11-17-2013, 08:15 PM
I suggest that you try to match speaker rms with rms rating of the amp as closely as you can.

Pretty much what I was poorly attempting to say. :D

To clarify for Jesse, If you match RMS of the speaker and the amplifier, then you will have plenty of headroom and you will have more than enough power for your speakers.

For example, if a speaker is rated at 100 watts MAX then it is usually around 40-60 watts RMS. This means that if you have an amplifier that puts out 75 watts RMS, you should be ok. If you can afford more power, then great, but those 75 watts should be enough to give the driver what it wants and have some room left for dynamics. So if you really like the look of those amps and you can afford them and don't see yourself going too much further with your setup in the near future, go for it. :)

Oh and just to make things a bit simpler, RMS rating can be thought of as more of a constant power rating (It means Root Mean Square, literally) but that is what the speaker can take for long periods of time safely without damage to the voice coil(s).
MAX ratings are essentially the maximum amount of power you can throw at it for a VERY short period of time. Sometimes in the millisecond range.
So if you go by RMS ratings, you will almost always be in the clear.

Hipster Lawrence
11-18-2013, 02:08 PM
Thanks you guys. I think I have everything nailed down. FWIW you guys have been more helpful than they guys over at diymobileaudio, I suspect they are all "experts" and don't have time to help a noob like me. And the guys on the reddit sub /r/carav are just pathetic...

BabyBear
11-18-2013, 11:21 PM
My BRZ has 3 way components stock and I kinda want to get rid of them and go for just the 2 way. The door speakers try too hard for bass and cause the door to rattle, and often is competing with the mid speaker causing the mids to sound muddy and way over powered. I suppose with a proper amp you could get the crossovers correct but it seems like more of a pain than its worth.

For the subs, I don't know how hard it would be to find a JL Stealthbox, or something similar, but one came with my Del Slow and its got the same problem the Miata has with having zero room to put a sub. It sounds pretty good and is out of the way on the Del Slow, so much so that it was a week after buying the Del Slow before I realized it was even there. They make one for the Miata, and there may be others that make similar enclosures. Just a thought.

BabyBear
11-18-2013, 11:33 PM
If you have any inclination to build something yourself you could make this

http://www.miata.net/garage/customsub.htm

Doesn't look too hard and would be completely out of the way.

Shadowlife25
11-19-2013, 12:18 AM
The guys over on DIYMA are mostly decent dudes. I think it also helps people see your thread when you post in it more than once every couple of days. More exposure and all that. Anyhow man, glad we were able to give you some usable advice. :)

Shadowlife25
11-19-2013, 12:25 AM
My BRZ has 3 way components stock and I kinda want to get rid of them and go for just the 2 way. The door speakers try too hard for bass and cause the door to rattle, and often is competing with the mid speaker causing the mids to sound muddy and way over powered. I suppose with a proper amp you could get the crossovers correct but it seems like more of a pain than its worth.



Honestly, you are probably best served by doing some deadening if you are getting resonance and rattles.

Hipster Lawrence
11-19-2013, 01:07 AM
If you have any inclination to build something yourself you could make this

http://www.miata.net/garage/customsub.htm

Doesn't look too hard and would be completely out of the way.


Won't work with my glass rear window unfortunately. It also won't work with a roll bar, which is on my list...eventually. Can't do track days in a miata without either a hardtop or a roll bar...


Depending on how the 3 way turns out I might do the Hakuna mod, which is basically a set of 8" IB subs mounted in the rear parcel shelf. It's a pretty extensive project though for what I'd expect to get from it. But if I'm not happy with my 3 way setup's bass I may do it. But after hearing the cheap ass 8s in Marshall's car I think I'll be more than happy with some good ones in mine.

Hipster Lawrence
11-19-2013, 01:14 AM
The guys over on DIYMA are mostly decent dudes. I think it also helps people see your thread when you post in it more than once every couple of days. More exposure and all that. Anyhow man, glad we were able to give you some usable advice. :)

Maybe so. I'm not downing the guys, i didn't run into any douchebags over there. The ones that helped me over there were really helpful, and there is some VERY good information on the site I've learned a lot by reading sticks and build threads. It's a great resource. I will likely continue to frequent it in the future.

Kinda can't really compare ANY web forum to this place though can you? The Iron Maiden fan club forum is kind of like a much larger version of this community, but other than that I've never experienced the comradery that this place has...

Hipster Lawrence
11-19-2013, 01:19 AM
My BRZ has 3 way components stock and I kinda want to get rid of them and go for just the 2 way. The door speakers try too hard for bass and cause the door to rattle, and often is competing with the mid speaker causing the mids to sound muddy and way over powered. I suppose with a proper amp you could get the crossovers correct but it seems like more of a pain than its worth.

For the subs, I don't know how hard it would be to find a JL Stealthbox, or something similar, but one came with my Del Slow and its got the same problem the Miata has with having zero room to put a sub. It sounds pretty good and is out of the way on the Del Slow, so much so that it was a week after buying the Del Slow before I realized it was even there. They make one for the Miata, and there may be others that make similar enclosures. Just a thought.

If there's anything I've learned in the last few years an a budding home audiophile, it's that proper crossover settings are EVERYTHING. I have a $1500 set of speakers and until I got my avr setup right I was completely underwhelmed.

Miata stealthboxes are as rare as hens teeth. And when they come available they're priced as such, even with no speakers. And they don't work with the glass rear window.

Hipster Lawrence
11-24-2013, 01:27 AM
Ok so I'm back to the drawing board. The foca components I wanted from woofers etc are likely counterfeit. At best they're b stock and woofers etc has a shitty return policy. I think I'm going to pass on those. Sucks cause it was a $500 set of speakers for $165.

I'm now looking at getting some 8" 4ohm woofers from partsexpress. The CDT 2" and probably some CDT tweeters.

Hipster Lawrence
11-25-2013, 04:39 PM
Looks like I'm going to have to let this shit wait for a while. My family is outgrowing our house...among other things. I'm going to have to get my priorities straight here so I can get my house into rental shape an get another house.

So as of now I'm going to get a nice HU and maybe a 2 ch amp and run the BA components I have now. After that I need to just stop spending money on my hobbies until I'm in another house.

It is what it is...I should really be sellin this car but I'm not goin to do that. It doesn't NEED anything so it shouldn't cost me anything to keep.

Thanks for everyone's help, hopefully I can use this advice at some point in the future.

Shadowlife25
11-26-2013, 03:57 AM
Family is always priority one man. Take care of your own and when the time is right, the rest will come. :)