PDA

View Full Version : Need help picking a 3S-GTE, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gen? Help!



ThePerfectLine
01-13-2012, 12:30 AM
Hi all,

My first real post here at celicatech.com! I've been lurking like a madman for a few months as I get ready to do my race car build, and I am at a point where I need some guidance, so here I am.

BACKGROUND
I bought a 1990 ST185 Celica race car that is 90% ready to go, the only thing is needs is a motor. Its an ex-Long Beach Grand Prix Celebrity Race car that has been heavily modified (Coilovers, Wilwood monoblock calipers, full cage, Fuel Safe fuel cel, stainless braided fuel and brake lines, Walbro 255 fuel pump, fully stripped interior, custom rear lower camber arm setup). It used to be a Celica GT (I think) and is definitely strictly a Front Wheel Drive car.

The only thing it didnt come with is a body wiring harness and a motor. I have an E153 from a v6 CamrySolara and found a factory LSD diff to put in the e153. So now I am at the point where I need to buy a motor for this, and I am DEFINITELY going for a 3s-gte, the big question is which one.

WHAT I WANT TO GET OUT OF MY MOTOR
I want to have a motor that is ultra reliable, and can take being driven at or near rev limit for long periods of time (it is a race car after all). I think even at stock boost levels this car is going to be fast, and after a little tweaking getting near 275hp or 300hp at the crank is plenty for me. I am not willing to sacrifice longevity and strength for 20-50 HP and do NOT plan on doing any major upgrades to it, other than cat-delete, free flowing exhaust, cold air intake, manual boost controller, dyno tune for the ECU, and any other simple tricks I can find online that dont involve major modding up upgrading the motor. I already have a very large front mount intercooler, a front mount oil cooler, and a front mount transmission (or maybe power steering?) cooler that came with the car.

MY DILEMMA
I have the transmission, so I am good there. But I can not decide what to do on sourcing a motor. An ST185 2nd gen, a ST205 3rd gen, or the ST215 4th gen 3s-gte.

At first I thought the ONLY way to go was the 2nd gen (since it is the same year as my car), but a deal for a 4th gen (st215) very low mileage motor came up and I've been told that its really the same to swap in the 4th as it is the 2nd. Which is partly because it is a stripped down race car, it's needs are very minimal, and I am OK with having someone custom build me a harness so that I can hook up my gauge cluster, and ignition. But even then, if I have to run aftermarket gauges, so be it, if I need to press a red button to engage the starter, thats fine as well.

I know the st215 4th gen 3s-gte is rated about 30-40HP more than the gen2 st185 motor in stock form. I can not figure out what exactly are the differences between the 2nd gen, the 3rd gen, and the 4th gen motors. I DO know the following, and please correct me if I am mistaken;

1. All three versions seem to be easy to get, with ST215's looking to be in the best condition (which makes sense, since they are 10 years newer than the st185's) and the prices seem to all be the same.
2. I wont be using the top mount intercooler, so it doesnt matter whether its Air-to-Air or Water-to-Air to me, since its getting punted anyway.
3. I know that the 4th gen (st215) exhaust manifold and turbo are married, and that you can't just replace the turbo, but this is fine by me, since I don't ever want this car to have a ton of power, 50-75 more than stock would be fine by me assuming it doesn't hurt durability and longevity.
4. I read somewhere that the 4th gen st215 turbo uses ceramic fins/blades and that they are possibly known to break off?
5. I like the idea of the 3rd and 4th gen having 550cc injectors instead of the 440cc injectors on the 2nd gen.
6. I also like that the st215 motors are just generally cleaner, newer, more modern, and seem to be better bang for the buck.

The things I DON'T know and make me nervous about doing an ST215 or ST205 3s-gte instead of the st185 version are;

1. Are the blocks basically the same? Do they use all the same parts? When I go to do a water pump, starter, timing belt, etc. are they all the same parts I would buy for an ST185 motor?
2. What about technical manuals, is it possible to get a manual for an st215? Maybe from Australia or some other country? Or does the manual from the 1990 ST185 Alltrac basically cover everything you need to know about wiring, vacuum, etc.?
3. What other things might come up that I don't know about that will be a deal breaker when I am trying to get an st215 4th gen motor running in my car?


So basically I am just looking to get some guidance here, but from my perspective (which is really based on about 3 months of internet research) the st215 looks like the way to go. I can do a Cold air intake, a free flowing exhaust, manual boost controller, and a good dyno tune with a little more boost and hopefully get a car with a solid 300 crank horsepower that will rev all day long.

-=Rodg=-

Some pics of the car right before I picked it up! (https://picasaweb.google.com/rodger.rodgmahal/1990CelicaRaceCar?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCN6Dn-7Et_HhOQ&feat=directlink)

4thgenceli
01-13-2012, 02:11 AM
This is alltrac.net?


I'm running a st215 in my swap. It was cheap.

ThePerfectLine
01-13-2012, 02:48 AM
haha, sorry! I was up SOOO late doing research, and my brain was def faded, so sorry so sorry!

Do you find that figuring out replacement parts and finding them is hard for the Caldina ST215? My concern on a race car is that stuff breaks all the time, and I basically won;t be able to go to the local PepBoys and buy a replacement part to get back on track if all parts need to be imported from Japan. How do you deal with that?

i really DO want to do the st215 swap, though I think in the next few years people will start doing them much more frequently, those and st205's, and that they might not be as cheap as they are right now. (they are the same price as a 1990 st185 3s-gtem which is crazy given that the st215 is likely 10+ years younger!)


This is alltrac.net?


I'm running a st215 in my swap. It was cheap.

Eric Barrera
01-13-2012, 03:20 AM
Yayy!!! another California Celica.

Welcome to the forums, you'll find everyone very helpful here.

ThePerfectLine
01-13-2012, 03:25 AM
I KNOW people here have the knowledge, i am trying to educate myself, but am at the point where I need to buy a motor and get this car running, so I can go dial it in at the track. I'm new to the Toyota world and celica's as well. I come from the world of bimmers, where a 250HP motor costs $2500k if you are lucky, and to get it to 300HP costs another $3500. So when I found out about the awesomeness that is the 3s-gte I was excited, but then confusion set in and I've spent the past 3 months trying to figure out if getting an ST215 motor is going to be so much harder than putting in an ST185 3S-GTE motor.

Eric Barrera
01-13-2012, 03:39 AM
You can honestly get any 3sgte that u want, as long as you get the parts for the swap.

The more basic one is the Gen 2 3sgte.

The WTA one the the 205 which comes with a beefier block but you'll need gen 3 electronics as well.

The 215 just IMO would be a PITA to find parts for in the states. Then again that is just my opinion.

Just depends how much money your willing to spend.

Now about tranny's, I have no clue, i'm a 5sfe expert lol.

Key word: MONEY MONEY MONEY

ThePerfectLine
01-13-2012, 04:04 AM
I already have an e153 from a solara v6 with an Limited Slip Diff on its way that was from an Mr2 e153 (the Solara e153 is the hot setup for FWD celicas wanting to run a 3s-gte I have found). So I am good n the tranny.

I hear what you are saying about parts for the st215, but they are so much cheaper than st185 motors, and Look to be in so much better condition (i.e. they are 10 years newer, so have been collecting rust for far less time). I have a line on a really clean st215 for $1100, about $1350 shipped, whereas I am looking at near $2000 for an ST185 2nd Gen 3s-gte. I LIKE the idea of the st215 having bigger injectors, a more capable turbo, a higher flowing oil pump, and making 255-260HP stock. What I dont like is having to rely on specialty shops (like Chicoworks, Dr. Tweak, Twos R us, etc.) to buy any accessory I need for this motor that only shares 50% of the parts with a 2nd gen.

As to the money, actually this seems pretty reasonable to me. Ballpark figures I have thought about are;

$1500 for the motor shipped to my door.
$500 custom wiring harness.
$200 Tubing, hoses, fuses, clamps, etc.
$100 IC tubing (Already have it)
$300 (LSD Differential to go in my existing e153 housing)
$100 extra gauges (Oil Pressure / Oil Temp / Boost)
$350 clutch / flywheel
$200 Axles
$3250 Total

Maybe I am WAY off, but I am not going for a "cherry, super clean, show winner" build. This is a track and race car, function over form, so $35 dollar gauges will work fine for me, I dont need a stage 4 carbon kevlar clutch made for 700Hp applications, just a stage 1 nice decent clutch, etc.


You can honestly get any 3sgte that u want, as long as you get the parts for the swap.

The more basic one is the Gen 2 3sgte.

The WTA one the the 205 which comes with a beefier block but you'll need gen 3 electronics as well.

The 215 just IMO would be a PITA to find parts for in the states. Then again that is just my opinion.

Just depends how much money your willing to spend.

Now about tranny's, I have no clue, i'm a 5sfe expert lol.

Key word: MONEY MONEY MONEY

grimmythereaper
01-13-2012, 04:17 AM
i would think it would be easier to get the st185 motor and ecu and wires and just drop it all in. the best thing about the aftermarket would is that it works with a 3s motor. Need a cam for a st165 then buy a cam and it will work with all versions. i would want the ability to go into a pep boys and replace whatever was broken :)

ThePerfectLine
01-13-2012, 04:21 AM
All versions I am looking at come with ECU and uncut harness. Its the water pump, idler pulleys, timing belts, thats the stuff I am concerned about. SOME of it looks like it is the same as the US Spec 3s-gte or the 5S-fe, but def not all, I found this list on mr2.com. (http://mr2.com/kb/html.php)

The following is a list of common OEM Gen 3 3S-GTE parts numbers or substitutions.

Air Temp Sensor: 89424-12010 (Sensor, Inlet Air Temp for EFI)
Alternator Assembly: 27060-74500 12V 90A
Distributor Cap Sub Assembly: 19101-88364
Engine Overhaul Kit 04111-74541
Engine Overhaul Kit (“Valve Grind” - all of the gaskets in the head): 04112-74521 *
Engine Room Wiring Harness: 82111-17583, List Price is $956.93 **
Exhaust Manifold to Head Gasket: 17173-88480
Hose, Water By-Pass #4: 16281-88461
Hose from Hell, Water By-Pass #5: 16282-88480
Idler #1: 13505-88480
Idler #2: 13503-63011 (same as USDM models)
Igniter Coil: 90919-02209 (same as 5SFE's)
Igniter: 89621-26010 (same as 5SFE)
Intake Manifold Gasket: 17177-88460
Map Sensor: 89420-17050 (Sensor, Turbo Pressure)
O2 Sensor: 89465-29805
Oil Pipe Joint Gasket: 15526-88480 (need 2 for the large banjo type fitting)
Oil Pipe Outlet Gasket: 15472-88480
Oil Pump Assembly: 15100-88460
PCV valve is the same as the newer Camry - Part number: #PCV-301
Rotor: 19102-74040
Spark Plug Wires: 90919-21581 - $74.00
Spark Plugs, Iridium: 90919-01180-83
Thermostat: 90916-03100
***Thermostat: 90916-03117 (Substitute: From Land Cruiser)
Timing Belt: 13568-79105 - $32.00
Turbo oil inlet gasket: 15471-88380
Turbo oil pipe, No1: 15481-88480
Valve cover Grommet: 90480-18001
Valve cover main gasket: 11213-88480
Valve cover smaller gasket: 11214-88480
Water Outlet Gasket: 16341-88460
Water Outlet: 16304-88463
Water Outlet Housing: 16303-88460
Water Outlet O-Ring: 90301-40005
Water Pump Assembly: 16100-79235
Water Pump Assembly substitution: 16100-79225 (from 3SGE I think) - $142.00




i would think it would be easier to get the st185 motor and ecu and wires and just drop it all in. the best thing about the aftermarket would is that it works with a 3s motor. Need a cam for a st165 then buy a cam and it will work with all versions. i would want the ability to go into a pep boys and replace whatever was broken :)