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View Full Version : The 5S header supremacy



Lonestag
10-28-2011, 01:31 AM
So today was a bit of a watershed moment.
VIP09's agreed to sell me his hotshot header.

That means I now will have:
- Said Hotshot header
- A stock 5S manifold
- Ebay Surewin header
- 97 Camry manifold

If I could get my hands on an 89 GTS header, I would have (to my knowledge) all the readily available headers for an S block NA build.

I have seen a lot of debate over header design over years. I really want do an at least a semi-legitimate test of performance for these headers to finally get a base frame of reference.

I'm still a way off, but what I would really like to do is find a nice 5S 5th gen with less than 120K on the engine and run them back to back on both a dynometer and a flow bench.

If I could collect enough data, I bet I could establish some sort of base curve to compare the pros and con's of each of the headers.

I know a member (Biscuitwheels?) works at a local performance shop. I think they have a dyno, so if I can find a test subject 5S, we would be in business.

With all that in mind, really looking for everyone's thoughts.
This a project that would interest a lot of people?

jaydog82
10-28-2011, 02:15 AM
I have a stock hem 1 st gen 3 she manifold that worked great on my 90gt. I will sell it to you if you want.

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk

jaydog82
10-28-2011, 03:43 AM
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr54/jaydog82celi/DSC07270.jpg
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr54/jaydog82celi/DSC07269.jpg
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr54/jaydog82celi/DSC07274.jpg
$50.00 + shipping or trade + shipping

Grot
10-28-2011, 07:05 AM
Thats a Regular Cast header.

The coveted 89 header is tubular.

Galcobar
10-28-2011, 07:40 AM
I agree, that doesn't look quite right. The fourth-gen GTS' tubular manifold was a 4-2-1 design in two pieces, but the pictured manifold seems to be really short on the upper piece compared to the images I've seen of the 3SGE 4-2-1.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/Galcobar/3SGEheader1-1.jpghttp://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/Galcobar/3SGEheader2-1.jpg

jaydog82
10-28-2011, 01:43 PM
Well I took it off an 89 gts and it worked great. I posted it here when I first got it and the general consensus was that it was a jdm OEM manifold.

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Grot
10-28-2011, 04:38 PM
the header you posted is the same one the my 86 GTS had.

Not every 89 had the Tubular header.
But the header is only found in 89s.

Car_Barn_Bandit
10-28-2011, 04:46 PM
Back to the OP.

Interested.

EDIT: Have you tried emailing a few car-part.com yards with the photos above on what they have after searching for 89 GTS? Always worth a shot. I've gone through the trouble of doing a second search in the past for GTS only parts to narrow down specific things before as well.

cklamp
10-29-2011, 12:41 AM
Too bad you're so far, my 91GT only has 109 on the clock... OH is pretty far from Wa though... Would love to see the results though.

Later
C

KoreanJoey
10-29-2011, 06:24 AM
PS: 1st and 3rd Gen 3SGE headers (probably 2nd gen as well) fit the 5s.

I currently have an HKS header on my Gen 3.

Lonestag
10-29-2011, 09:24 PM
Bandit,
If by saying that you are interested you mean that you would like to use your 5S as a test subject, then that would be great. I can use my old 5th gen to test fit the headers to flesh out any clearance or 02 sensor issues ahead of time to make them swapping them easier.

I don't think I would have a hard time finding a 3SGE header if it came down to it. I sell car parts on the phone all day so I know most of the junkyards in the state. I think Go-Go in MI has one even, not sure though.

As I mentioned before, I think Performance Theory Motorsports is the place to run this. I've been meaning to visit them some time because Nate who works there is the member Biscutwheels on here and seems to know a good deal about S block performance. Also, he might stll have his prototype 5S header lying around as well, which would be an amazing bonus.
( http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?31406-5S-FE-Header-Prototype-Completion&highlight= )

I do know they have a dyno though.

Joey,
I wasn't aware of a HKS header, do you have and pics or details?

Car_Barn_Bandit
10-30-2011, 03:21 AM
My 5SFE has about 80k on it. It was an engine with less then 60k on it when swapped in (previous owner) and between the two of us, we have added another 20k. Rev 2 motor with a Rev 1 ECU, so the knock sensor is just a block plug. Unmodified stock.

Would be glad to use it for a dyno test if it would benefit the community.

Lonestag
10-30-2011, 05:49 AM
You could borrow my rev2 ECU and knock sensor if it wouldn't be a hassle to wire in.
It's probably going to be spring before I'm ready to do this, if your still in, we could probably get it done in a three day weekend. The trick will be rigging the exhaust to accept a veriety of headers in a manner that is non destructive to your current set up. Ideally, we will run the headers back-to-back on the dyno to do our best to keep a realiable base line. I wan't results that won't leave erveryone guessing.

Personally I'm betting the pacesetter header has the highest HP and the camry has the best mid-range, but I'll admit thats a fairly uninformed bet. Thats why I want to run this test.

Car_Barn_Bandit
10-30-2011, 05:44 PM
If I borrow the ECU, I'd have to borrow the harness as well to make the knock sensor work. Best to dyno it as a Rev 1 5SFE.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2

Lonestag
10-30-2011, 05:55 PM
Yeah, I looked into it, your correct, wiring it wouldn't be worth it.
Your powertrain is almost completely stock right?

Edit:
Also, all these headers delete the cat. I suggest that we also include a run with a stock 5S manifold with a test pipe through the cat. I can probably find a donor. This was we will be able to seperate the effect of losing the cat with the relative effects of the seperate header design.

Car_Barn_Bandit
10-30-2011, 06:43 PM
Powertrain is all stock. I have plans to go 6 cylinder when I figure out my career/living situation, so pouring money into a performance 5S just didn't make sense. Basically maintaining and running the motor till it goes.

My modifications on the car are suspension / brakes / wheels /interior / exterior / cooling. Nothing that would effect performance. If I have the white GT next spring, we could use that car as well. Motor has less miles, and has all OEM engine parts to date.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2

KoreanJoey
10-31-2011, 01:14 AM
I'd have to dig the engine out from the back of the garage... But it's for an ST202. Header came with the motor. HKS (JASMA legal).

Car_Barn_Bandit
10-31-2011, 02:13 AM
FWIW I need to do some exhaust work in a couple months. I would not be opposed to adding an extra flange connection past the block. I could come up on a weekend after the exhaust is installed to get that part measured so any mockup down pipes with a header could bold into that flanged connection.

Basically give you a universal way to connect into the pipe going aft.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2

LyGuy
10-31-2011, 03:09 AM
Extremely interested in your project, although there would be no way I could help. Unless maybe donating a bit through Paypal.
From 1- 10 how likely is this test going to go through completely?

Car_Barn_Bandit
10-31-2011, 06:46 PM
Totally up to Eli on this one. I have two lower mileage 5SFE's that I am willing to donate for the dyno. I will be around this neck of the woods as well.

Lonestag
11-01-2011, 12:10 AM
I'm all in, big factor here folks will be what it takes to get the dyno time and wether or not we come up with a way to consistantly attach the differenct headers.

If I have to pay for Dyno time out of pocket, it might take me a little time to get the cash.

I'll get in touch with performance theory and get back on what they are up to.

In my head, the more 5S cars we can run through, the better our data aquisition, but really my main focus is to get at least one 5S on the dyno with at least three or four headers including a stock cast iron and a stock cast iron with a gutted cat. I'm expecting to find only minimal differences between the headers, but after reading through pages and pages of theory, I felt we could do with somthing a little more empirical.

I can't imagine I would accept donations, if you want to support my effort, support this site. Any research I do is entirely guided and influenced by Ctech.


If this study goes through, it may open the door into additional testing on other bolt-on mods. Wouldn't everyone love to finally know what effect thier custom intakes are having?

Car_Barn_Bandit
11-01-2011, 12:26 AM
I guess I have 2 test subjects, haha.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2

celica9303
11-01-2011, 03:30 AM
I have a 98 camry header w/cat installed in my vert....2.25" pipe to magnaflow.....i could donate my car for some dyno time if needed. Relativly low miles ~133k

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll269/twendt/IMG00076.jpg

Lonestag
11-01-2011, 03:53 AM
Bandit will run the first two, but if the means are available, we will put as many cars through as I can stand. There is all kind of data to be collected. Even having serveral different 5S's stock dyno charts will give us a better foot hold statistics wise.

I would really like to get a 5S that has had some internal work go on there, some one with cams at least. That would give us at least the beginning of a curve to demonstrate if any of the headers shine in higher performance applications.

celica9303
11-01-2011, 06:26 AM
Just offered cuz the header is already installed, that and I'm curious too, car pulls like crazy from 3.5k to past redline. Drove another stock celica and it didn't pull near as hard as mine did.

BiscutWheels
11-02-2011, 06:36 PM
Ely just contacted me here at the shop. Dyno time has been allocated. We're getting in on this.

Nate

Lonestag
11-02-2011, 10:57 PM
So glad to have you on board Nate, I was keeping my fingers crossed when I called.

In our discussion today, we agreed that the big thing is going to be setting up some sort of quick-connect system on our test subject.

Bandit, you mentioned that you will need some exhaust work soon, what do you need?

Car_Barn_Bandit
11-03-2011, 01:52 AM
It'll be sometime this winter, but I am lacking a flex pipe and my header is missing a stud for the flange. Basically I need to fix the forward section of exhaust.

If I get a job, I may get a new muffler as well. Its sounding its age.

Sent from my T-Mobil 1 Full Synthetic Phone

Lonestag
11-03-2011, 10:20 PM
Well, if thats what needs replaced, I would say it would be a good idea to get a quick-swap system set up when you do that.
If your lacking a garage, I could certainly lend you one for a weekend.

celica9303
11-03-2011, 11:49 PM
Which shop?

Lonestag
11-04-2011, 02:40 AM
Performence Theory Motorsports here in Columbus.

MrTurrari
11-04-2011, 10:59 PM
This will be interesting to see. Since you have all these headers in your possession could you also measure the runner length and diameter and post it up? Also any other dimensions that you think might matter like collector and outlet size.

Thanks for doing this guys.

Car_Barn_Bandit
11-04-2011, 11:52 PM
If I get ahold of a new muffler and pipe, we can even test stock from new.

LyGuy
02-06-2012, 05:30 AM
Any updates?

Car_Barn_Bandit
02-07-2012, 12:39 AM
Eli is still in the game to find a motor from someone and test headers. My job search in Ohio fizzled out for a number of reasons so I moved back to where I had work. Maybe we can talk Tom into making the drive...

Lonestag
02-07-2012, 04:05 AM
Yeah, Tom (celica9303) is next on the list for test vehicle. His car has higher miles, but I think it will be fine.
This is all of course as long as he can make it down.

In the mean time, while I have the cooling and core support chopped away on my 5SFTE project donor car, I think i'm going to test fit the headers.

k.beaty
02-07-2012, 05:57 PM
Interested to see the outcome of this, I'm having a 4-1 header built based off the of the TRD/Pro Celebrity design. This version will have the same 1.5" primaries with slightly longer runners.

It will be nice to have an option that will provide some decent gains for us guys who want more out of the 5sfe.

Physlis
02-10-2012, 04:38 PM
Definitely interested in the results, if you need another header to test I have the Megan-clone eBay header with some exhaust-wrap work. My motor is a little more "broken in" than what you're shooting for (230K+) but I can always lend an extra set of hands.

Lonestag
02-11-2012, 08:18 PM
Physlis, you're really not that far away are you?

I'm actually fairly happy with the collection of headers I have right now, the only one I would really like to add would be a 89 GTS header.
I'm betting that the results are all going to be fairly close, to the point of perhapse being almost unmeasurable. If I see a lot of variance in the first round of tests however, I will certainly consider going back for more. The main issue is, as always, time and money.

Physlis
02-11-2012, 09:30 PM
It's something like a 2-3 hour drive but nothin too bad. As of right now the only things in my schedule are Reserve weekends, The Dragon and my Technical training that starts in August. Any help I can lend between then let me know.

RedRkt01
02-15-2012, 04:54 PM
Stag, I have an ST202 3SGE stock header available if you'd like it.....

Lonestag
02-16-2012, 05:23 AM
Is it a tubular style?

RedRkt01
02-16-2012, 06:05 PM
Hell yes it is! This was the best performing non-VVTI 3SGE and a big part of it was its ability to breath.

Lonestag
02-22-2012, 04:33 AM
Teaser Pic!


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/88%20celica%20Vert%205SFTE%20project/SANY0980.jpg



I won't be really be able to test fit these until I chop a bit more off that lower core support, but I had enough clearence to fit the ebay header.

Lonestag
02-24-2012, 04:14 AM
Hell yes it is! This was the best performing non-VVTI 3SGE and a big part of it was its ability to breath.

I'll tell you what, when it's getting close to time to run the tests, If I have the resources, I'll get in touch and we will figure somthing out.

RedRkt01
02-27-2012, 02:57 PM
Sounds good. It's been just sitting around here so I'm sure I'll still have it. I hope you can use it. It only takes up storage space since I run the HKS unit on my 3SGE....

CollapsedNut
03-06-2012, 02:07 AM
Hurry up so I know if I should use my gen1 GE manifold or the Camry 5S header.

k.beaty
03-19-2012, 04:52 PM
Here is a link to a few pictures of the header that I am having made. It should be completed within a week or so.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.292450140826117.68523.137961856274947&type=1

k.beaty
03-31-2012, 04:16 AM
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/HaldimandCounty-20120330-00028.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/HaldimandCounty-20120330-00029.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp343/kbeaty47/HaldimandCounty-20120330-00015.jpg

Lonestag
03-31-2012, 02:24 PM
Sweet setup man!!

I think I have figured out the quick change system for mounting several different headers (with different connectors) all in one day. It's kind of simplistic but I bet it will work.

I just so happen to have a complete exhaust system off the 5th gen Vert i'm taking apart. I'm going to take it and cut the front section, re-attached it with some flex pipe, and the lay it down under the car while the Dyone is done. That way the exhaust will still be running through stock components and it should make switching headers a snap.

Lonestag
01-27-2013, 07:36 PM
I can't belive it's been so long since I've made any progress on this.

It's suprisingly hard to find Guinea Pigs in these parts lol.

Car_Barn_Bandit
01-27-2013, 08:26 PM
I can't belive it's been so long since I've made any progress on this.

It's suprisingly hard to find Guinea Pigs in these parts lol.

Blackhawk needs some TLC, but I may be moving to Columbus soon with that guinea pig you speak of.

Lonestag
01-28-2013, 03:27 AM
Blackhawk needs some TLC, but I may be moving to Columbus soon with that guinea pig you speak of.

Well, that would be convienent.

tonythesom
02-17-2013, 09:11 AM
you have or would have all but one header the mimousa header.

Lonestag
02-23-2013, 01:03 AM
I looked at that. Do you know if Mimousa manufactures these or are they like the Ebay headers?

Lonestag
07-12-2013, 09:59 PM
On a side note, I saw these over at st162.net, I don't know that i've seen them before.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/150765658733

GT-Steezy
07-16-2013, 08:08 AM
I might be up for the part as a guinea pig. I'm around 160k on the motor. Don't know if that's too seasoned for your liking. I can put my stock air box assembly back in, as I've been meaning to.