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JDM SNUKUMZ
09-26-2011, 03:55 AM
Oka so I read and read a bunch of thread and the info is quite not there.

I have a 92 ST. Im looking to do a brake upgrade so I can get rear disc and also a better front brake setup.I know the All trac has a Dual piston setup in the front and bigger rotors.

No the question is...has anybody done front all trac brakes in an ST?

Do the caliper holes bolt up or would it be better just getting the whole spindle.

Discuss.

Angel

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-26-2011, 11:23 PM
I guess nobody has done the conversion.

Angel

The Captain
09-26-2011, 11:25 PM
4 lug or 5?

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-26-2011, 11:48 PM
5 lug sir

Angel

METDeath
09-27-2011, 02:51 AM
I have a 91 GT (255mm front rotors), and the calipers bolted right up to my existing hardware, even uses the same discs. Between that, the rear disc conversion and the stainless steel braided lines... I need ABS now D:

Car_Barn_Bandit
09-27-2011, 02:59 AM
Between that, the rear disc conversion and the stainless steel braided lines... I need ABS now D:

I has ABS unit, lines and computer...

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-27-2011, 03:26 AM
now the question would be....

Would the all trac calipers work with the 92-93 5sfe celica 277mm disc?

Angel

KoreanJoey
09-27-2011, 03:57 AM
PS: Factory 5th gen ABS = the suck.

KoreanJoey
09-27-2011, 03:57 AM
now the question would be....

Would the all trac calipers work with the 92-93 5sfe celica 277mm disc?

Angel

YES. The rears do not (without modification) but the fronts do.

Galcobar
09-27-2011, 03:59 AM
The 92-93 GT/GTS were actually adopting the All-trac front rotors, that's why they went from 255 to 277 mm.

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-27-2011, 03:15 PM
^ thx to your thread I found some good info. Now what size are the rear all trac rotors?

I also have 14 inch wheels and the rotors on it now which are oe replacement fill up the wheel pretty good. If I switched to the 277 I will have to go to a 15 inch wheel correct?

Angel

The Captain
09-27-2011, 03:45 PM
Probably.

Car_Barn_Bandit
09-27-2011, 06:17 PM
I also have 14 inch wheels and the rotors on it now which are oe replacement fill up the wheel pretty good. If I switched to the 277 I will have to go to a 15 inch wheel correct?

I went to slap on a spare set of wheels I had (14" steelies) to roll my 92' GTS out of the garage. Would not fit. The 15' GTS wheels will barely clear as they were designed for each other.

METDeath
09-27-2011, 09:58 PM
PS: Factory 5th gen ABS = the suck.

You got any ideas for a better setup? I wasn't planning on adding it, but if you know a good/inexpensive way to add it, that'd be rather helpful so I don't put flat spots on my tires from locking up at 40+

Car_Barn_Bandit
09-28-2011, 02:58 AM
You got any ideas for a better setup? I wasn't planning on adding it, but if you know a good/inexpensive way to add it, that'd be rather helpful so I don't put flat spots on my tires from locking up at 40+

Find someone with all the parts needed or learn to pump brakes...

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-28-2011, 03:03 AM
Find someone with all the parts needed or learn to pump brakes...

pumping brakes sounds cheaper

Angel

Galcobar
09-28-2011, 03:32 AM
I think of it this way: if ABS is so helpful to the best drivers in the world that it's banned in F1, then the rest of us would probably see an even greater benefit.

Galcobar
09-28-2011, 03:37 AM
Huh, was just reading through the braking section of F1's website and came across their Kinetic Energy Recover System -- damn things are hybrids with an electric version of NOs.

METDeath
09-28-2011, 04:04 AM
Maybe... but if the stock system is sucky, then why not find a better system?

KoreanJoey
09-28-2011, 06:50 AM
I think of it this way: if ABS is so helpful to the best drivers in the world that it's banned in F1, then the rest of us would probably see an even greater benefit.

Um... yeah no. The CELICA ABS sucks.

R35 GTR ABS = win.

To be honest I've not raced a single Toyota ABS system that didn't suck on the track... I think part of it is the system is tuned to engage very early and don't modulate well.

As to a different system... um... No I wouldn't bother. I you want ABS, use the factory ABS and just pull the fuse when you want to actually push the vehicle.

Newer Toyota ABS systems are even worse. Ice mode = evil and terrifying.

Night_Wolf
09-28-2011, 04:10 PM
Newer Toyota ABS systems are even worse. Ice mode = evil and terrifying.

Omg I love this!

METDeath
09-29-2011, 05:39 AM
Um... yeah no. The CELICA ABS sucks.

R35 GTR ABS = win.

To be honest I've not raced a single Toyota ABS system that didn't suck on the track... I think part of it is the system is tuned to engage very early and don't modulate well.

As to a different system... um... No I wouldn't bother. I you want ABS, use the factory ABS and just pull the fuse when you want to actually push the vehicle.

Newer Toyota ABS systems are even worse. Ice mode = evil and terrifying.

Duly noted... so is it the ABS computer or the ABS master or what?

The Captain
09-29-2011, 12:32 PM
^That sucks? It's the whole system. It's single channel. If one wheel begins to slip it modulates every wheel, increasing stopping distance. More modern systems are 4 channel. They only modulate the wheel that is slipping. I was trail braking in Princess deep into a corner and when the inside rear wheel skidded the whole car lunged forward when the ABS modulated the pressure in the other calipers. Scared the poop out of me.

METDeath
09-29-2011, 02:47 PM
^That sucks? It's the whole system. It's single channel. If one wheel begins to slip it modulates every wheel, increasing stopping distance. More modern systems are 4 channel. They only modulate the wheel that is slipping. I was trail braking in Princess deep into a corner and when the inside rear wheel skidded the whole car lunged forward when the ABS modulated the pressure in the other calipers. Scared the poop out of me.

Oh... so if I wanted to install an ABS system I'd have to find a four channel system and then make it work some how... fuck all that then.

KoreanJoey
09-30-2011, 12:25 AM
Actually I think the Celica ABS is a 4 channel system (at least the JDM ones were as it was plastered on the tailgate of one that was imported, I think Joel's). The thing is that, on the track, you're trying to get right on the line of lock-up. With the factory ABS if you cross that threshold the system activates and the ABS pulse is really too biased on the release vs the brake and you end up way overshooting your target zone. I think this has more to do with the fact the system was designed around 20 year old tire technology than anything else.

Modern systems can be even worse as if it detects that the difference of speed in the wheels is too great it assumes that you're sliding on ice and doesn't deliver full braking power (Pretty scary in a 3700lbs truck going 60mph trying to trail brake into a turn).

The Captain
09-30-2011, 12:36 AM
Actually I think the Celica ABS is a 4 channel system .

Not mine. :-(

KoreanJoey
09-30-2011, 02:25 AM
Well that sucks even more than!

Get on it.

Car_Barn_Bandit
09-30-2011, 02:27 AM
Are the 1990-1991 ABS systems the same as 1992-1993 ABS systems? Possible revisions?

KoreanJoey
09-30-2011, 03:26 AM
*shrug*

l0ch0w
10-01-2011, 10:32 PM
ok, a couple of things to clear up, alltrac front brakes are only 1 pot... (at least ST185)

The ABS Brick, and lines are the biggest waste of space in the car. It uglies up the engine bay, its heavy, and it hampers performance. Why do you think SO many of the alltrac guys remove the ABS system entirely? I suggest learning threshold breaking...

Honestly the best and easiest upgrades would be to get stainless hoses, good pads, and if you are feeling especially rambunctious, perhaps a set of slotted rotors...

Dont waste your time yet with getting fancy calipers for gains you probably wouldnt even be able to notice.

JDM SNUKUMZ
10-02-2011, 12:00 AM
I thought they were 2 pot? Or is that the 165?

Angel

The Captain
10-02-2011, 03:18 AM
I thought they were 2 pot? Or is that the 165?

Angel

Nope. 185's are single. JDM 185's and 165's had the two pot. I have to agree with ch0w on this one as far as upgrades. A cheap, easy upgrade is the larger alltrac rotor and caliper. More iron=more energy absorption. Feel is improved by fluid and lines. The alltrac master cylinder is larger too, although I think all ABS Celicas had the larger master. I used Princess' original calipers on new alltrac rotors on my vert. I left the rear's stock but replaced all the rubber lines with braided steel. The difference is amazing.

The ABS system is crude but made to save your bacon in a panic. While I agree in a controlled environment or you have the intent on performance driving you can outperform the ABS, you will not in a panic. I like the idea of a switch to depower the unit. The Celica (at least mine) is single channel. Although it has sensors on all four wheels it cannot individually modulate each wheel. When any wheel locks, the system modulates all four wheels. That's why it sucks. That being said the only time it gives me fits is a down hill off camber curve where it unloads the inside rear wheel. Otherwise I can hold my own in the mountains.

KoreanJoey
10-02-2011, 06:26 AM
I like the idea of a switch to depower the unit.

That's what I'd do if I wanted to retain the ABS system (which I wouldn't, btw).

schnee
04-28-2012, 01:16 PM
According to my spares shop the larger ST185 front pads are the same as on the ST182 - is this correct?
Just fitted late ST185 brakes/mcyl on my ST162 and need an answer

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/Brakes/2012-04-23_12-17-01_444.jpg

My finding sofar:
JDM ST165 Preface - uses the same pads as ST182 (single pot 255mm)
JDM ST165 Facelift - uses the same pads as ST185 preface (twin pot 255mm)
JDM ST185 Preface - uses the same pads as ST165 facelift (twin pot 255mm)
JDM ST185 Facelift (single pot 275mm) - uses the same pads as ST182/ST165 preface (single pot 255mm)
All the above use the same rear brakes

tubasteve
04-29-2012, 01:37 AM
Your findings are true

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

celica9303
04-29-2012, 03:26 AM
I went to slap on a spare set of wheels I had (14" steelies) to roll my 92' GTS out of the garage. Would not fit. The 15' GTS wheels will barely clear as they were designed for each other.

Im going to contradict this statement. My 93 vert has the same 277mm brakes as the all-trac.....it came from the factory with 14in wheels and they fit fine

schnee
04-29-2012, 05:06 AM
Seems like each car has different calipers, different rims have different shapes inside too so there's so many variables.
I used ST202 brakes for a long time and they worked well apart from having to space the disk out 5mm.
The 16in ZZ rims can go a lot bigger, there's enough room to fit ST205 brakes - hopefully
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/Brakes/P9160003.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/Brakes/P9070215.jpg
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/Brakes/Pads5150001.jpg

Galcobar
04-29-2012, 08:28 AM
ST184, and I expect the ST182 and 183, had two different brake sizes depending upon year and body design.

Front rotors on 90-91 GT/GTS were 255mm by 22 mm, then for the 92-93 the discs were 277mm by 25 mm (same size as All-trac rotors, but without the dual-piston calipers). I vaguely recall seeing the convertibles, for some reason, stayed at 255 mm in 92 and 93.

Front rotors on 94-99 GT were 275mm, but were 3 mm thicker than the 92-93 GT/GTS rotors, and 6 mm thicker than the 90-91 GT/GTS. Rear discs on 94-95 GT were the same dimensions as the fifth-gen rears (except for the centrebore), but in 95-on they went from 10 mm thick to 9 mm thick, though retaining the 269 mm diametre.

alltracman78
04-29-2012, 06:49 PM
Most ST185 front brakes are SINGLE piston. Early [89, maybe 90] JDM cars had 2 piston calipers [which were at best as good as the single piston calipers]. The rest [later JDM and all USDM] all had SINGLE piston calipers.
I don't know why so many people think they all had 2 piston calipers.

And for those of you locking up your brakes, get bigger wheels/tires. I've got 6 piston calipers up front and I've jammed my brakes on many times. I've never locked them up though. Granted I've never jammed them on during tight turns.
IMO keeping the ABS and having a way to turn it on/off is better than just not having it. Turns in the wet are safer with ABS.