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Lonestag
08-06-2011, 03:57 AM
I've never really contimplated doing a turbo project. I have however hoarded a good few turbo related parts over the last four years.

Now I'm preparing to swap the sub 100k mile engine and trans from wrecked 93 GT vert parts car that I bought into my 4th gen vert. I have been thinking that I have most of the critical and difficult parts for a turbo build, and that if there is any time to do one, it's while the engine is out of a car.

My question is, do I have most of my bases covered for a turbo build here?


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0507.jpg

Here is the donor drivetrain. Car is real clean and has ~80k miles on it.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0501.jpg

Here is my parts corner. Most of all the celica junk I've hoarded over the years is here now.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0488.jpg

Here is the pile of turbo related stuff. I think most of it is 2nd gen 3sgte.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0489.jpg

So i'm a little hazy here, but I'm thinking this is the downpipe.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0490.jpg

And this is the header

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0491.jpg

Here is the first turbo, probably the one I'll use. I really don't know how to judge a turbo, but I know it has almost no shaft play.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0492.jpg

Here is the other one. Still not much shaft play, which is starting to feel dirty to type.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0493.jpg

Ok, so I think this bundle of wires is important.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0494.jpg

Becuase I think they go with my Emanage Blue. Which I will admit I'm pretty intimidated about wiring up.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0497.jpg

I also have a oil pan that is tapped for a line to a turbo.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0495.jpg

I also have a whole lot of parts like this, which could be really important, or useless, I have no idea.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0498.jpg

This looked really important, thinking oil line?

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0500.jpg

Not sure about this.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0499.jpg

And a both more of WTF is this?

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/as256/5SFTE%203rd%20gen%20vert/SANY0506.jpg

I also have this sitting around, but I had better not get wild....


So, I know I will need intake and a FMIC plus plumbiung. I also guess I had better get a blow off valve and a boost controller. Other then that, what am I missing here?

Also, does anyone see anything drasticly wrong with this plan? I just want to run at a modest 5-6PSI boost and keep the whole set up fairly reliable.

As I mentioned, I've never traveled into turbo territoy before, so I'm a bit intimidated.

temperacerguy
08-06-2011, 02:38 PM
ok, the wastegate is what will control your boost, and the spring pressure on that wastegate is at approx. 7psi.

Now I warn you... I have seen so many people try to turbo a stock internaled 5S-FE only to pop the engine within a few months.

Oh the box of stuff is from an MR2. It's the evap canister and mounting bracket for the cooling filler neck in the engine.

klapa
08-06-2011, 05:16 PM
^This - I have read the same thing numerous places - complete with pics. The general consensus that I have read is that the 5s rods are really skinny and are not up to the task in a turbo application.

zen
08-06-2011, 05:26 PM
definitely pick up some 315cc lime green top top feed injectors from 86-91 supra. plus, bigger flowing fuel pump

Lonestag
08-06-2011, 06:31 PM
definitely pick up some 315cc lime green top top feed injectors from 86-91 supra. plus, bigger flowing fuel pump

I had thought that our fuel system would be good for the 5-7psi and maybe 150 whp a set up like this would put out.


^This - I have read the same thing numerous places - complete with pics. The general consensus that I have read is that the 5s rods are really skinny and are not up to the task in a turbo application.

While I was aware that the bottem end of the 5S is indeed weaker, I had thought that doing a very mild build like i'm contimplating wouldn't stretch the limits of the 5S. This is going into the vert, so it's not like it's going to get autocrossed or anything.

If i'm not going to be able to come up with somthing stable, I don't think this project should go ahead.

grimmythereaper
08-06-2011, 06:39 PM
i know that this would lower ur torque but y not get the bottom end of 3sge or 3sgte and use the head of the 5s? custom forged rods would be a lot of money

temperacerguy
08-06-2011, 07:24 PM
it's not really the rods, it's the detonation that's the problem. The combustion chamber of the 5S is very detonation prone, add that to the higher compression, and the boost, and you will have to retard the timing so much , and dump fuel to resist detonation. that you won't have the benefits of a turbo platform.

klapa
08-06-2011, 07:46 PM
Well - that is true - that the compression ratio is VERY different between an NA and turbo car.

Like - IIRC 5s comp ratio is 10.5:1 and 3sGTE is 8.5:1.

Anyway - it is interesting Lonestag - that we are in "opposite corners" here. I have a '93 GTS with a broken engine that I would like to bring back to life - and in a moment of "temporary brain derangement" bought a guys "project" engine - an 87 3sge that has been rebuilt on the bottom end with big rods, new pistons, all for a turbo. But I don't want a turbo in this GTS - I thougt it would be a great deal because of the nearly new bottom end. It came with the piggy back and tons of other parts.

Oh well - I'm stuck with it now cuz I bought it. I would like to "de-turbo" the thing but with a 8.5:1 comp ration I would have a "slug" on my hands.

I should've just bought a Camry 5s.

MrWOT
08-06-2011, 08:36 PM
I'd send the ct out for a full workup, upgrade the compressor a bit, rework the turbine housing a lot. One that will smooth the wastegate as well. Just add cams and it will be loads of fun at 9psi.

Lonestag
08-06-2011, 08:42 PM
I had been thinking about cams. I would like somthing that opened it up just a little bit, not a whole lot. Also, I would really like to keep a reasonable idle.

MrTurrari
08-16-2011, 01:27 AM
A few things:

Check the housing on each of the turbos for scraping at the compressor inlet. A turbo can feel like it has no shaft play but then when the oil gets hot it can have a lot more play. If it has scraped the housing it needs to be rebuilt with new parts or it will be sending metal shavings into your engine.

If you use the stock 3sgte oil lines (pic 12) they will need to be bent a little to fit (the 5sfe head is narrower so the turbo ends up sitting closer to the block) and you will need to cut the banjo fitting off and either weld a fitting on there or clamp a hose to it for the oil feed. Add a 1/16" restricter to it to keep too much oil pressure from building up in the turbo and blowing by the seals and causing other PCV problems. Oil can come from the oil pressure sender location with a T or from a sandwich plate at the filter. Be very careful you have no leaks because it can cause a fire that near the exhaust.

There is a heat shield on the 5sfe oil cooler coolant lines that will need to be cut or bent out of the way to fit the stock wastegate where it should be.

As was said you need larger injectors and a bigger fuel pump. While the stock 5sfe fuel pump might get you by for 6-7psi it is better to play it safe. As boost rises so does the pressure that the pump must provide because of the FPR and that reduces the flow more on a turbo car then it does on an NA car. The stock injectors are not even close to being able to keep up with 7psi unless you raise the fuel pressure. 160whp maybe if it is NA.

You also might want a stronger clutch. The stock one will hold if you don't launch it hard and keep it at low boost.

When you are hooking up hoses make sure the ones for the PCV valve and the crank case vent come from a source before the turbo. If you don't you get boost in the crankcase and lots of smoke on boost as it blows past the turbo seals. This also ruins your turbo seals because oil gets burnt in there and chews them up.

You can actually run a rev2 5sfe (like you have in the first pic) with nothing but the 315cc injectors, gen2 3sgte Map sensor, stock 3sgte ct-26 turbo, good intercooling and keeping it under 10psi with no additional tuning whatsoever. I did it for almost a year on mine before an oil leak starved a rod bearing around a corner. People always blame the 5sfe internals but the fact is they added some random part into the mix and the tuning wasn't there to compensate for it. It is even safer to get a wideband and tune a little more fuel in with a piggyback during the transition to boost when the turbo is spooling up. You can also get better power all around that way.

Now about the 5sfe not being a good turbo motor. The mechanicals are actually mostly set up as if it was meant for boost from the factory. It's the electronics that were not made for it. The two things that kill most 5sftes are bad tuning and oil leaks. The rods are 90% as strong as 3sgte rods and have handled over 350ft/lbs of torque without problem. The pistons and combustion chamber are made of the same material and similar design to the 3sgte. There is nothing detonation prone about it as it is just 0.7 points above a 3sgte. That makes the gas you use and the tuning a little more critical but that doesn't make it bad for boost. The two things you have to watch out for mechanically are the ring end gap which is smaller so a heat build-up could cause the rings to bind and the rod bolts will not take the stress of really high RPMs for very long. The ring end gap is good for at least 220whp and that could be higher if there is more wear on the rings. Some have done long stretches at 240-260whp (Presure2) with no problems at all. The rod bolts can handle the stock revs of 6500rpms if the bearings are in good condition and maybe up to 7000rpms but no one really knows where they will fail. Adding boost actually puts less stress on the rod bolts by the way. Also the cams which were really made for a 2 liter NA are about perfect for a 2.2 liter turbo engine with a 6500rpm red line. The ct-26 on a 2.2 liter also runs out of steam so cams will just give you a higher peak with a shorter powerband. So with a ct-26 I would stick with the stock cams.

pintoBC_3sgte
08-16-2011, 02:17 AM
do it! 5sfte is fun :D

andy
08-17-2011, 06:09 PM
ive done this before.
you got everything except for the intercooler stuff
retard the timing to 7btdc
run supra 315cc injectors
9 psi
2 bar map sensor from mr2 or alltrac
that all u really need
oh and bkr6e spark plugs gapped to .28
mine ran great for years until i swapped to a 3sgte

celica9303
08-17-2011, 06:41 PM
I would love to try this......I say go for it. I'm still considering it but you already have everything so I again say do it.