PDA

View Full Version : Using 5SFE Crank to stroke 3SGE



Lonestag
07-05-2011, 04:37 AM
I've been looking around at the cheapest ways to get some extra horeses out of a gen 1 3SGE. It doesn't need to be super reliable, just enough for oh say 24 hours of abuse.

Somthing I am curious about is using a 5S crank shaft to stroke my gen one 3SGE. I have heard that you can machine the crank to connect to the 3SGE rodds and thus gain some of the 5S's 90mm stroke.

Would this be a better way to get super cheap though possibly more volitile power out of the engine instead of slapping on say a 97 camry bottem end?

I know there are a lot of downsides of a set up like this, but would somthing like this maybe net somthing like 10-20hp over stock with intake headers and exhaust?

Since the engine would now be over squared would it choke up on the high rev's or just possibly a-splode after a couple hours?

CollapsedNut
07-05-2011, 04:48 AM
I think you would find it cheaper and easier just to swap in a 5s bottom end. Not really much to it.

JDM SNUKUMZ
07-05-2011, 05:07 AM
I think you would find it cheaper and easier just to swap in a 5s bottom end. Not really much to it.

actually the way he is planning on going would be the cheaper way.

If he were to go 5S bottom he would need stroker pistons as the 5s pistons have different valve reliefs.Also need to buy a head gasket designed for the 5s/3s setup and thats just the start of it.

Now going the way hes thinking about makes it easier and cheaper cause he would only need to get the crank machined to accept the 3s rods.ONly thing I would watch out for would the flywheel.If youre running a stock one then you will need a new flywheel.BUt no worries since most aftermarket flywheels are drilled for both 5s and 3s motors and if worst come to worst you can send the crankto ATS and they can machine to accept both patterns.

You would gain some displacement but not as much as doing a full 5s bottom.Motor would go from 1998cc to 2.139cc roughly.You will not gain hp but you would gain torque due to the stroke of the 5s crank.As far as choking up the motor you will be oka.That is what the mr2 owners do when they go stroker but still retain the 3s block.

Hope this helps

Angel

Sang
07-05-2011, 08:57 AM
If your plan was to race in a lemons, i'd spend the money elsewhere. everyone's driving a beat up pos and the winner is usually the people that are consistent and mostly stock to keep it reliable enough to make it to the end of the race.

But if you really want to go this route, do what ^he said. And if you're looking to keep costs down as much as possible, get the holes elongated on your flywheel (though I think the gen1 3sge shares the same flywheel bolt pattern as a 5sfe. At least the st165 does).

Lonestag
07-05-2011, 12:13 PM
If your plan was to race in a lemons, i'd spend the money elsewhere. everyone's driving a beat up pos and the winner is usually the people that are consistent and mostly stock to keep it reliable enough to make it to the end of the race.

Lemons is in fact what I had in mind.

It's not that I think that the mad power is going to guarentee me a win, I was just thinking it would be somthing cool to try in a situation where I'm almost guarenteed to fail anyway (thats the fun part of that race right?).

I was thinking it would be a fun way to guage the effectiveness of a mod like this without putting it into a car that I would cry about it it granaded on me after a couple thousand miles.

And I had been under the impression that the crank might bolt right to the flywheel, but then it also occured to me that I have the earlier design of the 3sge, from 1986. I'll go check and see if I can't find any info on that today.

CollapsedNut
07-05-2011, 03:29 PM
actually the way he is planning on going would be the cheaper way.

If he were to go 5S bottom he would need stroker pistons as the 5s pistons have different valve reliefs.Also need to buy a head gasket designed for the 5s/3s setup and thats just the start of it.

Now going the way hes thinking about makes it easier and cheaper cause he would only need to get the crank machined to accept the 3s rods.ONly thing I would watch out for would the flywheel.If youre running a stock one then you will need a new flywheel.BUt no worries since most aftermarket flywheels are drilled for both 5s and 3s motors and if worst come to worst you can send the crankto ATS and they can machine to accept both patterns.

You would gain some displacement but not as much as doing a full 5s bottom.Motor would go from 1998cc to 2.139cc roughly.You will not gain hp but you would gain torque due to the stroke of the 5s crank.As far as choking up the motor you will be oka.That is what the mr2 owners do when they go stroker but still retain the 3s block.

Hope this helps

Angel

Ummm people put 3sge heads on 5s bottoms all the time. No special head gasket, no special pistons ect. Its a bolt on swap.

MrTurrari
07-05-2011, 11:53 PM
Ummm people put 3sge heads on 5s bottoms all the time. No special head gasket, no special pistons ect. Its a bolt on swap.
And you loose over a point of compression and make less power then a 5sfe does especially with a rev1 3sge as a starting point.

If it was me doing a Lemons car I would use a 5sfe, check the bearings, replace the oil pump, then add some Webcam 294 cams (or similar), header and exhaust. You will make as much or more power with that setup then you would with even a rev2 3sge and it will be extremely reliable.

Lonestag
07-06-2011, 02:52 AM
If it was me doing a Lemons car I would use a 5sfe, check the bearings, replace the oil pump, then add some Webcam 294 cams (or similar), header and exhaust. You will make as much or more power with that setup then you would with even a rev2 3sge and it will be extremely reliable.

Mr Turrari, I've been hoping you might stick your head in on this one.

Doing the conversion from 3SGE to 5SFE would probably put me way north of the $200 plus I have to spend to hit the budget of a lemons car.
Even looking at webcames would probably be out of the question unfortunatly.


Like was mentioned before, I'm sure the best use of my $$ would be update other aspects of the car other then power, I just thought it would be fun to look into some extra ponies.

This is all assuming I'm able to muster the resources and help to make a Lemons car possible.
As it sits i'm just a dude with a rusty 4th gen in his yard...

MrTurrari
07-06-2011, 11:05 PM
With that budget a crank swap is also not going to be practical because you will need new pistons with that extra stroke. Delta cams can do grinds for under $200 but you won't get a lot more duration unless you pay more for hard welds. Anybody know if the cams from the gen2 will fit the gen1?

Hookecho
07-07-2011, 12:53 AM
They should fit being that it is a common upgrade to install gen1 3sge cams into a gen2 3sgte as a direct bolt on.

Lonestag
07-07-2011, 01:34 AM
I happen to have gen two cams sitting in the garage right now, I could peg a reasnable value on them and throw those in if it looked like I could get some power out of it.



With that budget a crank swap is also not going to be practical because you will need new pistons with that extra stroke. Delta cams can do grinds for under $200 but you won't get a lot more duration unless you pay more for hard welds. Anybody know if the cams from the gen2 will fit the gen1?

I didn't know that the stock 3sge pistons would need changed. Won't they clear the head with the longer stroke?
That would for sure take the mod out of my price range.

JDM SNUKUMZ
07-07-2011, 03:57 AM
With that budget a crank swap is also not going to be practical because you will need new pistons with that extra stroke. Delta cams can do grinds for under $200 but you won't get a lot more duration unless you pay more for hard welds. Anybody know if the cams from the gen2 will fit the gen1?

why would you need to when you can grind the rod journals to accept the 3s rods and youre done.

Angel

MrTurrari
07-07-2011, 08:12 AM
If you increase the stroke from 86mm to 91mm then the piston travels both up and down an extra 2.5mm. That means your piston intrudes into the head by 1.5mm (head gasket is 1mm). You need custom pistons with the pin relocated to do it.

schnee
09-12-2011, 02:27 PM
Simply use shorter pistons or rods
Using shorter rods is counter productive as it reduces the piston dwell time, a better option would be to use longer rods on a 3S crank in a 5S block
or Honda H22/3 type pistons with GE rods on a resized 5S crank in the 3S block

Gen2/3 cams will fit the Gen1 GE, but the lift is too much for the smaller buckets and shims, you'd need the lobes reduced to 8,5mm max or the head modded to take the later buckets

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-14-2011, 09:25 PM
If you increase the stroke from 86mm to 91mm then the piston travels both up and down an extra 2.5mm. That means your piston intrudes into the head by 1.5mm (head gasket is 1mm). You need custom pistons with the pin relocated to do it.

Sorry for bringing the thread back to life even though teh guy before me did but both 3s and 5s share the same rod length stock to stock. Reason why pistons need to be changed is when you do a 3s head onto a 5s block block but keeping it all 3s you dont need to.

Angel

Lonestag
10-27-2011, 01:27 AM
Schnee, do you know anyone who has actually got the cams in the car? Machine work on the head could probably squeeze in under budget.
I wonder what if any gains it would yield.

JDM SNUKUMZ
10-27-2011, 01:43 AM
by going with a lober rod for a 3s would require a custom set.Which most people wont bother with.

By increasing the rod length you are also gaining a longer stroke which would turn into more displacement. Why not work the crank to give a longer stroke and still keep the stock 3s rod?

Angel

Sang
10-27-2011, 04:03 PM
by going with a lober rod for a 3s would require a custom set.Which most people wont bother with.

By increasing the rod length you are also gaining a longer stroke which would turn into more displacement. Why not work the crank to give a longer stroke and still keep the stock 3s rod?

Angel

Long rod setup doesn't = more displacement. Wrist pins need to be relocated further up on a long rod setup and the crank still determines overall piston travel. You get a better RR but not more displacement.


Reason why pistons need to be changed is when you do a 3s head onto a 5s block block but keeping it all 3s you dont need to.

Angel

Block doesn't factor in with why you need pistons with a relocated wrist pin. Anytime you change the stroke (which means anytime you swap out a 3S crank for a 5S crank or offset grind the journals), then you need to adjust the write pin location accordingly. Assuming we're still talking about this guys 3SGE. Swapping to a 5S crank with his current block and head would require OTS "stroker" pistons. 86 or 86.5mm bore, relocated wrist pin, and valve reliefs for a 3S head.

JDM SNUKUMZ
10-27-2011, 10:15 PM
Long rod setup doesn't = more displacement. Wrist pins need to be relocated further up on a long rod setup and the crank still determines overall piston travel. You get a better RR but not more displacement.

This is how Aaron has his 2.3 setup.Still using 3s eagle rods on a worked 5s crank that has a 93m stroke instead of the 91 hence giving him the 2.3 displacement.




Block doesn't factor in with why you need pistons with a relocated wrist pin. Anytime you change the stroke (which means anytime you swap out a 3S crank for a 5S crank or offset grind the journals), then you need to adjust the write pin location accordingly. Assuming we're still talking about this guys 3SGE. Swapping to a 5S crank with his current block and head would require OTS "stroker" pistons. 86 or 86.5mm bore, relocated wrist pin, and valve reliefs for a 3S head.

youre right I dont know what I was thinking when I wrote that. thank you.

Angel

schnee
11-05-2011, 12:54 PM
Schnee, do you know anyone who has actually got the cams in the car? Machine work on the head could probably squeeze in under budget.
I wonder what if any gains it would yield.
No - for the price of cutting down the cams it's easier to buy a/m cams or swap to a gen2/3 head.

The gen2/3 also has shorter valves and they are further away from the cam, specs show a lift increase of 1-2mm but in reality the lobe profiles are some 5mm larger on the later gens

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/P9290043.jpg
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/P9290044.jpg

H22 piston (dh =31mm) looks like a vaible candidate for a 3S/5S long rod or stroked motor, but rods would need to be converted to press fit.
K20 piston has an extra 1mm clearance (dh = 30mm), not sure if it has pin clips yet
2JZ rods may work with 5S crank without mods - need to measure some up
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/162%20TEMS/Engine%20rebuild/PA140005.jpg

I was looking at fitting H22 rods and K20 pistons to my gen2 GE but the rods are too narrow and press fit, also the big end bearings are some 3mm narrower than the 3/5S

schnee
11-05-2011, 01:36 PM
This is how Aaron has his 2.3 setup.Still using 3s eagle rods on a worked 5s crank that has a 93m stroke instead of the 91 hence giving him the 2.3 displacement. Only way to do that is with pistons 4mm shorter than stock! What pistons did they use?

rizin
11-05-2011, 04:12 PM
If you have a 91mm stroke and you go to 93mm you will only need to move the pin 1mm higher in the piston. If you measured from the center of a 91 mm crank to the rod journal center you would get a measurement of 45.5 mm and a 93 mm crank you would get 46.5. So in turn you move the rod 1mm higher in the cylinder and 1mm lower giving you 2mm more stroke.

JDM SNUKUMZ
11-05-2011, 04:31 PM
If you have a 91mm stroke and you go to 93mm you will only need to move the pin 1mm higher in the piston. If you measured from the center of a 91 mm crank to the rod journal center you would get a measurement of 45.5 mm and a 93 mm crank you would get 46.5. So in turn you move the rod 1mm higher in the cylinder and 1mm lower giving you 2mm more stroke.

correct.

Angel

schnee
11-26-2011, 01:25 AM
You are both correct except -

GE rod is 2,5mm longer than 5S rod (138mm vs 135.5mm), the difference is visible and obvious how
Toyota squeezed in the extra 5mm stroke.
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee111/st165-2765/dirty%20deeds/112011l.jpg

Actual piston travel is 3,5mm higher than stock in the bore (2,5mm (5S-3S=?) + 1mm (2mm crank stroke increase))
Add the extra 2,5mm GE rod length

That's already 6mm past the deck height of the block with stock pistons (35mm) high.
You then need pistons with a height of 29mm or less - which are like chicken teeth as the gudgeon pin sits under
the oil rings

I have given the idea some thought and it's possible by using the GE rod, undercutting the 5S crank for GE rods and using Honda K20 series pistons (87mm, 30mm high)

Pic shows a H22 piston (87mm, 31mm) vs the GE piston - useless in this application (and they're press-fit)
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/162%20TEMS/Engine%20rebuild/PA140005.jpg

Once again - what pistons did they use?

JDM SNUKUMZ
11-26-2011, 02:12 AM
Ge rod as in 3sge?

Aaron used aftermarket wisecos in his setup.

Angel

schnee
11-26-2011, 02:15 AM
GE/GTE rods are the same AFAIK

There's no Wiseco listing for that - were they custom or from some other make?

JDM SNUKUMZ
11-26-2011, 02:21 AM
Aaron @ ats sell wiseco stroker pistons. For some reason wiseco doesn't list them directly on there site but they are available though.

And if ge/gte rods are the same then the 5s will be the same as well. I know both gte and 5s rods measure 5.33 I believe is what they are.

Angel

schnee
11-26-2011, 02:30 AM
I especially put up a pic of the GE vs 5S rod so you could see for yourself.
The pistons in that pic aren't even aligned properly

If anyone has any info or p/n's for these "stroker pistons" please let us know

JDM SNUKUMZ
11-26-2011, 03:54 AM
I especially put up a pic of the GE vs 5S rod so you could see for yourself.
The pistons in that pic aren't even aligned properly

If anyone has any info or p/n's for these "stroker pistons" please let us know

I understand that but I was tryiing to state that the gte and 5s rods are same size since u said the ge and gte share the same length

As far as part number or info Aaron or Scott @ ATS could shed more light on that but you most likely would have to contact them directly.

Angel

rizin
11-28-2011, 02:34 AM
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt108/rizin22/stroke-1.jpg

Hopefully this crappy drawing helps explain. Like you said the pistons on the rods will not line up the same. The compression height is different between the pistons (The measurement from piston top to center line of wrist pin) to make up for the stroke. That is how they manage it. The rods are the same in length center to center.

Why guys use 3s rods and offset grind a 5s crank is because a 5s rod journal is 2.0472" and a 3s is 1.8898". There is excess material to grind of for the offset for a 3s rod to be used. In diameter it is almost 4mm. If you want to offset grind you can only move 2mm any direction with out getting a custom rod made with a smaller rod journal side(big side). This causing a custom piston required the wrist pin to be moved up using a 138mm rod on a 2.3l stroker.

rizin
11-28-2011, 02:55 AM
http://www.superhonda.com/photopost/data/501/11214compress_image002.gif better pic of what I was trying to show.

schnee
11-28-2011, 11:26 AM
Great pic
Problem is your rod length and piston height don't agree with what I'm seeing on the vernier
Since when is a 5S-Fe rod 138mm? As I stated before the pistons are the same height but the 5SFE rod is shorter
Which 5S piston/motor are you using, I see some late versions had different pistons

JDM SNUKUMZ -
5S is FE rod
3S is GE/GTE rod (we are not discussing the 3S/4S-FE at this stage)
Both rods are very different, the bolts are too - note how skinny the FE bolts are, the pitch is less too

rizin
11-29-2011, 02:39 AM
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt108/rizin22/rods.jpghttp://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt108/rizin22/rods1.jpg


Here is a little better of a comparison of the rods since the wrist pins for the 3sgte and 5sfe are the same it makes it easy to line up that side of the rod. Since the cap surfaces of both rods are dead center I took a pic of how they line up. Notice there is no 2.5 mm of difference in the rods. Hopefully that will convince you they are both 138mm.

Both rods are out of a 92 block. 92 5sfe Camry and a 92 JDM 3sgte.

If I am wrong about all these numbers my 5sgte build should of not had the proper quench gap since I had my 5s crank ground for 3sgte eagle rods 138mm with no offset and 5s pistons with a comp height of 1.275 inches.

If you want take a measurement of your 5s pistons from the top of the wrist pin hole and then the top of the piston. Do the same for the 3s piston then compare numbers. I bet you will find a 2.5mm~ difference there.

Here is a link for Pauter gives you specs on the forged 5s and 3s they offer. http://www.pauter.com/toyota.htm

JDM SNUKUMZ
11-30-2011, 06:24 AM
I was gonna post a link to the mr2oc thread where this was discussed but I remembered you need to be a member to view the thread.

Thank you Rizin for clearing this up.

Angel

schnee
12-04-2011, 12:46 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, rod lengths aren't given in the BGB's and 5S aren't in any of the catalogues.
In the Teikin catalogue I note that 5S pistons are 2.5mm shorter than 3S.
Your 5sgte is probably better off losing 1mm due to the re-size?
What is your C/R? FE pistons may be the answer for 14psi+ GTE's

The confusion is due to pics I recieved from Canada showing the 5S rod at 2mm shorter -
GE
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee111/st165-2765/dirty%20deeds/112011m.jpg
FE
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee111/st165-2765/dirty%20deeds/112011n.jpg
Obviously not the correct way to do this, I forgot to account for the different bearing size.

Anybody tried any other piston/rod combos? I'm thinking 2JZ rods/K24 pistons and the block and head skimmed in my 5S-GE

l0ch0w
12-24-2011, 08:59 PM
Are you going to keep it N/A? If so I might suggest asking around to find some stock gen 4/beams rods... I know they arent as strong, but they are substantially lighter and might net you some rotational mass losses for an increase in power... Unless you plan on punching over 400 whp in them I would see if you can find a set of those :) I know the guys rebuilding gen 4 motors basically throw those things away... might be worth looking into at least ?

Lonestag
12-25-2011, 05:45 PM
This thread should really be summerized and stickied.
My innocent question seems to be the finger that once stuck downs C-techs throat resulted in the mass regurgitation of useful info all over this thread...

chris_trevisiol
01-04-2012, 08:52 PM
i cant believe it... this is the first thread in the stroked 3sge or the 5sge ive seen active since 2009

heres what i found when i was trying to decide whether to 3SGE stroker or 5SGE N/A
my goal for either motor was to build a "square" motor, i.e. the stroke is the same as the bore which although not ideal for running 9000rpm (where oversquare comes in) you also retain low end torque and can still rev high rpms.
to square the 5s, (by overboring) you would have to remove some .19xx", which my not be possible
to square the stroked 3s (by overboring) (with the crank main bearing journals machined .005 and the connecting rod journals machined .1574") you only have to remove... .032"
well within the safe range of .040 over

i havent ran any numbers on pistons yet, since i couldnt find a spec on deck height, but to really gain power out of this application forced induction comes into play and i was planning on changing the pistons anyways

MrTurrari
01-07-2012, 08:18 AM
This is how Aaron has his 2.3 setup.Still using 3s eagle rods on a worked 5s crank that has a 93m stroke instead of the 91 hence giving him the 2.3 displacement.

FYI 93mm stroke only gives you 2.250 liters with the maximum safe bore on a 5sfe which I wouldn't quite call 2.3. If they have a true 2.3 liter they are likely offset grinding the crank more then that. The absolute maximum stroke you can get from a 5sfe crank with 3sge rods and stock bearings is 95mm. Add 0.5mm oversized bearings and offset it that much more and you can get to 96mm. The maximum bore on a later 5sfe block is 1mm assuming you get a perfectly centered casting. So the most displacement you will ever see with a 5s crank and 3s rods is 2.335 liters and that is pushing the structural limits of the parts. It is more reasonable and relatively safe to go to 2.298 liters with a 2mm offset ground crank (+4mm stroke) and +0.75mm bore which is safe on all later 5sfe engine blocks.

MrTurrari
01-07-2012, 08:29 AM
i cant believe it... this is the first thread in the stroked 3sge or the 5sge ive seen active since 2009

heres what i found when i was trying to decide whether to 3SGE stroker or 5SGE N/A
my goal for either motor was to build a "square" motor, i.e. the stroke is the same as the bore which although not ideal for running 9000rpm (where oversquare comes in) you also retain low end torque and can still rev high rpms.
to square the 5s, (by overboring) you would have to remove some .19xx", which my not be possible
to square the stroked 3s (by overboring) (with the crank main bearing journals machined .005 and the connecting rod journals machined .1574") you only have to remove... .032"
well within the safe range of .040 over

i havent ran any numbers on pistons yet, since i couldnt find a spec on deck height, but to really gain power out of this application forced induction comes into play and i was planning on changing the pistons anyways
As soon as you use the 5s crank you can never get back to a square motor no matter which block you use. Honestly though it makes no noticeable difference in power or torque. Max safe bore on rev1 5sfe blocks is 0.020" without x-raying the block, max safe bore on all later blocks is 0.030" without x-raying. If you go more then that you risk that it was a slightly off center casting and you cylinder walls may flex making you loose ring seal.

chris_trevisiol
01-15-2012, 09:20 PM
sorry, didnt mean to imply that it makes a difference in power or torque it only changes the piston speed relative to engine rpm, with a larger stroke the piston has to travel a larger distance therefor a faster speed than an engine with the same piston diameter and a smaller stroke. squaring an engine is not ideal for high rpm's where the smaller stroke vs bore would be due to less piston speed at a designated rpm i.e. less wear and tear on the engine.

all my numbers were ran using stock bearings and the original size of the crank, since building any engine that is used i know the numbers would change and they were just an estimate used to see which direction i was planning on going. which is now with the 3sge (gen 1) and the 5s crank. i have 2 5sfe cranks, both are 2nd gen but one is out of a camry, and it has the gear driven balance shaft set up which im tempted to not use (involves balancing the other crank) and weight matching the new pistons to rods.

any feedback is highly regarded, im not here to argue semantics over engine dynamics or methods of building, im on this site to learn... been planning my new engine build (already rebuilt the 5s in my car back to oem other than the valve train ported-polished and oversized valves) from the day i bought this car years ago... and ive steadily been stockpiling parts since then. if all goes well ill be into the new (to me ) gen 1 3sge in the next few months.