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4thgenceli
04-05-2011, 05:17 PM
Checking out the bgb I have to see if my oil is right (as I think my gauge reads a bit low) and I should be using 20w50 not 10w30 according to my temps here. :ohnoes:

CollapsedNut
04-05-2011, 06:34 PM
eh. IMO oil type is all a matter of personal preferance.

Luni
04-05-2011, 07:05 PM
No tim, definately dont run 20w50 oil. Get some good 10w30 synthetic. The difference in protection when the oil is at temprature isnt a lot between 10w30 and 20w50 but the 20w50 is WAY WAY WAY too thick for your engine at startup and will cause all sorts of unwanted wear and tear on your engine until its warmed up.

Theres absolutely no reason for you to change the "cold start" attributes of your oil just because its hotter. Even 100 degree oil is still going to not be in the optimal area at startup. Not even if its 20w50. Personally, with as far as oil technologies have come I wouldnt have a problem running a 0w30 or even a 0w40 if I were you. I did some research and a lot of the Miata guys down in AZ like to run the mobil 1 0w40 down there.

The first number with the w is a winter number. So 20w50 is more like a 20 weight at cold temps, and as it warms up to operating temp takes on the attributes of a 50 weight. 20 weight oil at startup is WAY too thick.

Thats why I like the idea of a 0 weight at startup and a 30 or a 40 weight protecting me at temp.

4thgenceli
04-05-2011, 07:34 PM
This is in my daily driver ('87 GTS 143xxx on the motor). When warm, under load the oil pressure gauge reads just a hair over the low mark. I don't know what ## it's at, but I have an oil gauge en-route so I can see what PSI it's at. Guess you can say I'm a little concerned (don't want to grenade my engine on the daily yet...). I just switched from whatever the P/O had to the Vavoline MaxLife 10w30 syn. blend stuff I use in the other cars.

CollapsedNut
04-05-2011, 08:43 PM
20 weight oil at startup is WAY too thick.

I disagree.

Facime
04-05-2011, 08:44 PM
I think an all to common mistake with an aging motor is trading pressure for volume, which is what most people are doing when they go to a higher vis oil like 20w50.

Luni
04-06-2011, 12:18 AM
Really CN? You disagree? You really think youre doing your engine a favor by running 20 weight in it for startup?

You need to go read http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/

Theres alot to read, but pretty sure youd change your opinion on it after reading that.

In ANY modern engine (modern being 80s or newer in my book), 20 weight at startup is way too thick, there just is NO reason at all to run 20w50 oil.

CollapsedNut
04-06-2011, 12:57 AM
I disagree just to aggrevate you ;)

Hookecho
04-06-2011, 01:34 AM
I run 20w on my AK.

Luni
04-06-2011, 03:10 AM
I disagree just to aggrevate you ;)

Jerk!

klapa
04-06-2011, 03:32 AM
The thicker oil certainly performed better in my 5s.

Dumping the 10W30 Royal Purple for Castrol 20W50 made a large difference in the valve clatter time on start-up.

Luni
04-06-2011, 04:06 AM
The thicker oil certainly performed better in my 5s.

Dumping the 10W30 Royal Purple for Castrol 20W50 made a large difference in the valve clatter time on start-up.

It's also putting more wear and tear on everything now at startup until the oil gets up to temp.

klapa
04-06-2011, 04:32 AM
It's also putting more wear and tear on everything now at startup until the oil gets up to temp.

Well - I guess I just "don't get it", b/c with the thinner oil I have an oil light on maybe twice as long and noticeable valve clatter noise indicative of starving for oil up in the head - while with the heavier weight oil I have an oil light for may 1/2 - 2/3 of the time and nearly no valve clatter at all - yet you are saying my engine is wearing MORE on start-up than the lighter weight oil, even with this extra valve noise which is certainly indicative of oil starving in the top valve galley?

Care to extrapolate on that theory?

kungFUBAR
04-06-2011, 04:40 AM
In ANY modern engine (modern being 80s or newer in my book), 20 weight at startup is way too thick, there just is NO reason at all to run 20w50 oil.

Unless you drive a German car. VW calls for a straight 50 in my step-moms '99 Beetle. Most of your modern (going by your definition) Mercedes, BMW and Audi engines use 20w-50 or 15w-40.

That being said, determining what oil you use is more about what your engine is designed to work with. More importantly than the weight, pay attention to the API or CCMC/ACEA classification, that tells you more about the actual oil. You would be better off with 20w-50 oil with an SM classification than a 5w-30 with an SH classification (assuming you could still dig that up somewhere).

Luni
04-06-2011, 08:40 AM
Klapa, did you ever think that maybe theres something wrong with your engine that the thicker oil may be masking? Such as some sort of, I dunno, damage that may have been done at some point in time where you might have overheated your engine once or twice (or more?)

Basically your mentality is, because your engine is screwed up and clacks on startup, running a thicker oil works for you, so everyone else should just jump right on that and buy 20w50 oil for their perfectly running engines, and it will protect them way better.

Maybe the reason why the thicker oil works for you is because the thicker oil runs a higher cold start pressure. So, you get the oil up into the head faster and it quiets the clacking up there, but maybe, just maybe the theres nothing wrong with your bearings, and youre slowly taking life away from them by running a thicker oil.

Kungfubar, please tell me where you got info that newer German cars are running oil that thick from the factory. I searched all over the net and everything I found for a 99 beetle (except for the TDI one), says 5w30 is what you should be running, which to me, seems spot on, as most of the cars of that era call for 5w30 oil as well (even my 2000 Celica GTS calls for 5w30 oil). As for BMWs, my roommate has a 2006 M3 and his car calls for a Castrol 10w60 synthetic. Its actually heavier than I thought, but its also a synthetic which although has the same "weight ratings" as dino oil, doesnt achieve it in the same way (10w synthetic will be thinner at startup than a 10 weight dino). The other BMWS (the Non-M models) call for a 0w30, 0w40, and 5w30. http://test.resource.bmwusa.com/Pdf_2861cf6b-ce4e-4492-8bd7-6bb12c1eea2c.arox As for Audis, I found this TSB from Audi specifying engine oils from 1997 to 2010 cars and the heaviest oil in that sheet is a 5w30. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CC0QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiusa.com%2Fetc%2Fmedialib% 2Fcms4imp%2Faudi2%2Faoa%2Fcompany%2Faoa-specific.Par.0023.File.pdf&rct=j&q=audi%20oil%20recommendations&ei=hCCcTfbTKJG4sAPZn4mOBA&usg=AFQjCNF83H01z68riHirmfYfCyR97U1yhg&cad=rja. Mercedes Benz says: Below is a List of Mercedes Approved Synthetic Engine Oil (2005-2009 Models):

• Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40
• Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30*
• Pennzoil European Formula Ultra 5W-30*
• Quaker State European Formula Ultra 5W-30*
• ELF Excellium 229.5 5W-30* Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-401
• Valvoline SynPower MST 5W-30*

Bottom line is, unless your engine is already on its way out, or you live in Hell, 20w50 is too thick for a healthy toyota engine manufactured in the 90s. If you have to run it to keep your engine happy, your engine already isnt happy and its just a matter of time before that something goes. Hell, 20w50 is too thick for most engines made in the last 10 years period. I said 20 before, but from what I just looked at, even the Germans have gone to thinner oils. Theres a reason for it. Theyre understanding more and more about what the oils we have these days can do, and theyre changing what they say they need.

Did anyone in this thread actually read the information in the link I posted?

Hookecho
04-06-2011, 12:23 PM
The heavier oil is just a band-aid that is fixing a bigger problem in your motor. You likely have clearance issues with bearings or in the oil pump. There could also be blockage in the oil guides or pickup tube screen. Even using the wrong oil filter can cause low pressure. You have to remember that heavier oils don't drain back into the pan as fast. So you could be fixing one problem and slowly causing another. It can also cause varnishing.

I have solved low oil pressure on a 5sfe motor by replacing the oil pump and cleaning debris and varnish off the pickup screen. After disassembling the pump I could see where debris had gotten in the drive/driven rotor and ate away at them over time. In fact the pump was full of metal shavings from engine parts. The pump never gets filtered oil so it is common for them to wear out.

Hookecho
04-06-2011, 12:32 PM
My two Mazda's and my mother-n-law's Grand Am call for 5w30. That seems to be the recommended weight for most modern motors.

donteatbugs
04-06-2011, 08:05 PM
i run 15w40 amsoil race series in my 3S and amsoil 10w30 in my 2zz....mmm, expensive oil changes

MrWOT
04-06-2011, 11:43 PM
Errr... You're all right...

Both the 7M and 3S were designed with 20w50 in mind at operating temperature.

I use 0w40 in everything.

CollapsedNut
04-07-2011, 04:14 PM
i run 15w40 amsoil race series in my 3S and amsoil 10w30 in my 2zz....mmm, expensive oil changes

I get my bike oil from an Amsoil dealer on 600rr.net. He gives nice deals on case quantitys.

chelseablue
04-07-2011, 10:05 PM
I use 5w30 during winter months and change it to 10w40 during the summer months and my engine sounds and runs really sweet.

CollapsedNut
04-08-2011, 06:45 PM
I use 5w30 during winter months and change it to 10w40 during the summer months and my engine sounds and runs really sweet.

Is that like running rich? Does your car run on sugar water? ;)

All this oil talk makes me realize I havent changed my lancer in like.. i donno... a year?

klapa
04-09-2011, 12:32 AM
The heavier oil is just a band-aid that is fixing a bigger problem in your motor. You likely have clearance issues with bearings or in the oil pump. There could also be blockage in the oil guides or pickup tube screen. Even using the wrong oil filter can cause low pressure. You have to remember that heavier oils don't drain back into the pan as fast. So you could be fixing one problem and slowly causing another. It can also cause varnishing.

I have solved low oil pressure on a 5sfe motor by replacing the oil pump and cleaning debris and varnish off the pickup screen. After disassembling the pump I could see where debris had gotten in the drive/driven rotor and ate away at them over time. In fact the pump was full of metal shavings from engine parts. The pump never gets filtered oil so it is common for them to wear out.

Well - first I will say that I bought the thing from a guy on this board who said it was rebuilt ~ 20k miles ago. I know - may be that's a fairy tale - but when I questioned about what was done the guy even had his mechanic that did the work call me.

Aside from that - nearly EVERY 5s owner I have talked with on this board has the same problem on start-up.

Luni
04-09-2011, 02:50 AM
Well, Ive worked on several 5Ss and every one of them Ive worked on has not had a clack on startup, and the oil light goes out fast. And theyre all running 10w30 oil.

Facime
04-09-2011, 02:57 AM
^^ must be all your fag magic and rainbow stickers. Nothing worse than lubrication flowback amirite?

Hookecho
04-09-2011, 04:43 AM
Uisrite.

Luni
04-09-2011, 07:02 AM
I am pretty gay. Taste the rainbow bitch!

Luni
04-09-2011, 07:45 AM
Theres no reason to up the first number unless youre running dino oil (not synthetic) and not changing at the recommended intervals (I expand on this below)

It goes like this:

First weight (in front of the W) means "winter" weight. This is also referred to as the "cold cranking weight"
Second weight is the "at temp" - natural weight

All the 3 following oils will lubricate the same at temp in a given brand (different brands will vary their thickness per weight ratings) (dino or synthetic, but you cant compare dino to synthetic - Ill get to that in a minute): 0w30, 5w30, 10w30. The only difference between the 3 is how thin the oil gets when the temperature drops to "ambient". Overall, in a perfect world, the 0w30 will be better for your engine, since it protects better when the engine is cold (meaning NOT warmed up), and it protects the same at temperature.

The difference between a synthetic and a dino oil multiweight oil is this: A 5w30 dino oil starts out life as a 5 weight oil, and it has VI modifiers to make it a 30 weight at temperature. A 5w30 synthetic oil starts out life as a 30 weight that is 5 weight when cold.

Heres the thing that screws with you. As you run the oil, over time, the modifiers wear down, and the dino oil that started out life as a 5 weight will return to a 5 weight because it thins out as the modifiers run out (this is the main reason for the 3000-5000 oil change interval on dino oil). Where as a synthetic oil will stay the 30 weight throughout the life of the oil but its detergents will run out, and the oil will take on dirt etc. Synthetics dont have any VI modifiers in them *Note on synthetics: some oils claim to be synthetics but theyre just Group 3 base oil stocks but theyre not true synthetics. Note these Group 3 base oils are only considered synthetics in the US. Nowhere else in the world acknowledges them as true synthetics. A true synthetic comes from a Group 4 or 5 base stock - 4 is a polyalphaoefin and 5 are synthetic esters. Group3 is dino oil thats been "hydrocracked" or "hydroisomerized" and still come from crude oil and still follow the same rules when breaking down as a standard dino, it just takes longer to break them down. As far as I can tell, there are only a few Group IV PAO synthetics around anymore. Most of what you see are "synthetics" arent. Mobil 1 has remained true and is a PAO Grp4, so is GERMAN Castrol Syntec (it has to say "made in Germany" on the back of the bottle), as are Redline, Amsoil, and some of the other specialty oils. The rest of the "so called synthetics" arent true synthetics.

Another thing about dino vs synthetic, even at a standard same weight, (we will say 5w30 since thats all Ive been talking about in this for comparison sake), the synthetic will protect better at startup, and be thinner when its cold. The synthetic will stick to the engine parts better and longer, and be slipperier all the while doing it. Its a crazy thought, but really when it comes down to it, a synthetic oil just isnt a little bit better, its WAY better. In pretty much every way. So theres another thing to think about.

So, there is absolutely no reason to run a 20w50 oil over a 0w50 oil especially if youre talking about synthetic oils. The 20w50 oil if its dino will be too thick at startup, only protect marginally better at temp, but its saving grace is, once its VI modifiers wear down, it will still be a 20 weight oil which will protect you much better at temp than a 0 weight would.

The real way to find out what oil grade you should run would be to use an oil pressure gauge and find out at temperature what oil raises your oil pressure 10 psi per 1000 rpms of engine rotation.

After researching the oil thing to death and back, Ive decided that the lowest cold number combined with a higher at temp number is the overall ticket.

So, for the MR2, I think a 0w40 or a 0w50 oil may be the ticket. For a newer car, like my 2000 Celica GTS, a 0w30 oil will be the ticket for me. And synthetic all the way. After learning about the main difference between synthetic and dino multigrade oils, I wont run a dino anymore.

Everyone says "the oil you use is up to you, everyone has their own preferences", but the big thing here is, the majority of people you encounter in life do NOT understand exactly what those numbers mean, the real differences between dino and synthetic, and how to apply those numbers to a car/driving situation.

Luni
06-03-2011, 06:14 AM
Not letting this thread die. Lots of good info in here.

Misconceptions about oil are a pretty big pet peeve of mine.

85gtsblackman
06-05-2011, 07:38 AM
i run 20w50 in everything with over 200k or if i know the motor was dogged

it has yet to fail me, and the 6th gen hasnt blown up despite its constant abuse, the 3rd gen was running 20w50 as well till the trans blew up, my rolla had 20w50, so did my other truck, my camry, my other 5 or so celicas, my maxima ect.

oh and luni 20w50 is the only thing that shut the stx engine up, my 240 has a bad bearing thats being lubbed in 20w50, that ka hasnt blown up in 2 months, oh and my oil consumption went down with 20w50

ChrisD
06-05-2011, 03:12 PM
I switch to 5w30 in winter. It's pretty important to come down a tad in the W when you're cold starting at -20 to -40. Rest of the year, 10w30. Never had an issue with startup or operating temp with this combo. (all synthetic of course)

T-spoon
06-06-2011, 04:00 PM
i run 20w50 in everything with over 200k or if i know the motor was dogged

it has yet to fail me, and the 6th gen hasnt blown up despite its constant abuse, the 3rd gen was running 20w50 as well till the trans blew up, my rolla had 20w50, so did my other truck, my camry, my other 5 or so celicas, my maxima ect.

oh and luni 20w50 is the only thing that shut the stx engine up, my 240 has a bad bearing thats being lubbed in 20w50, that ka hasnt blown up in 2 months, oh and my oil consumption went down with 20w50

All of that probably means the cars you are driving are old and sloppy so the thick oil hides a lot of problems. :hehe:

85gtsblackman
06-15-2011, 12:35 AM
All of that probably means the cars you are driving are old and sloppy so the thick oil hides a lot of problems. :hehe:

but oldies are the good ones

my 6th gen ticks if i dont run 50 weight so yes its probally shot but then again a series engines usally dont last over 200k for long periods of time