PDA

View Full Version : Synthetic vs. Non-synthetic oil



Doowstados
03-05-2011, 03:35 AM
I'm about to do an oil change in the next few days, I've been hearing a lot about synthetic oil lately. Is it worth it to change? Is there anything special I need to do outside of just draining my oil?

bzdweezy
03-05-2011, 05:03 AM
Just depends on the history of the car. If you have been using conventional oil and have a lot of miles on the car id stick to that. Because syn oil will do a lot of cleaning and you might get oil leaks. And I always like to use a toyota filter but if I can't get one I use a purolator pure1

Doowstados
03-05-2011, 05:39 AM
I'm going to either rebuild or swap in a 3SGTE around January or December. Maybe I'll switch then.


BTW, any thoughts on royal purple?

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-05-2011, 05:51 AM
Mobil 1.

Used in the Shuttle. Tested, tried, true.

Saved my engine on numerous occasions. I always wait for a filter and 5 qt. sale at Autobone, Kragens or O'reillys to do a change.

Doowstados
03-05-2011, 06:16 AM
"...in the Shuttle?"

What do you mean?

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-05-2011, 06:27 AM
I mean, that Pennzoil and Mobil 1 were the only available consumer synthetic oils used on the Space Shuttle. Says something about how tough they are.

Night_Wolf
03-05-2011, 09:21 AM
I use Mobil 1 synthetic in my 3S

Hipster Lawrence
03-05-2011, 01:44 PM
There is no such thing as synthetic oil. Just highly refined dino oil.

No real need unless you have a car that tge manufacturer recommends it it. A turbo car could probably benefit from it due to the extra heat load on the oil.

The Captain
03-06-2011, 03:25 AM
What he said^

bzdweezy
03-06-2011, 06:04 AM
Plus most "synthetic" oil have a higher total base number to start off with which can help with fuel dilution(like turbo applications)

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-06-2011, 07:02 AM
There is no such thing as synthetic oil. Just highly refined dino oil.

No real need unless you have a car that tge manufacturer recommends it it. A turbo car could probably benefit from it due to the extra heat load on the oil.

There may be a few companies in America able to market their highly refined dino oil, but there is synthetic oil. You can only refine crude oil to a point, which is what most companies sell as conventional oil.

Conventional lubricants and motor oils start their life as heavy crude oils, usually full of contaminants and uneven petroleum molecules. Petroleum is made up of long complex hydro-carbon based chains. The job of refinement is to filter out the heavier petroleum from the lighter. Typically these oils contain paraffins and other waxes that cannot do anything to aid the lubricants but actually make them inefficient because of diversity of chemicals present. As the hydro-chains break down from friction, they create the gunk you see in conventional oils. Broken down molecules then collect and solidify waxes mixed with contaminants. You can do a lot of refinement, and even use catalysts to remove sulfur (most crude oil used in engine applications is sourced low sulphur to begin with), contaminants and lighter hydro-carbon chains.

There are several Mobil 1 oils that full under the moniker synthetic. If you read the labeling, they are labelled correctly. Standard Mobil 1 oil is synthetic, in that is contains what began as a heavily refined crude oil that goes through a hydrocracking process which creates new, synthesized molecules. Under high pressure, hydrogen is introduced, often with a benzene or ether catalyst that causes the long hydro-carbon chains to break down and become more simple. These simple chains are more stable in your engine over a longer period because under intense heat and pressure, they don't break down further, causing your oil to choke or gunk up components. It also means they contain their viscosity longer and at more extremes.

Mobil 1 Full-Synthetic is FULLY SYNTHETIC. These are typically found in the high mileage or performance Mobil 1 bottles. For those wanting to look up the technical grade for oil, conventional Mobil 1 is a Group III oil, while Mobil 1 Full Synthetic is a Group IV oil. These oils are actually derived from highly refined and synthesized mineral oil. The process was invented by the Nazis because of their limited access to oil reserves. Fully synthetic oils have more in common with polymers then they do petroleum based products. They exhibit properties such as being stronger at higher temperatures, and extremely low surface bonding. Because they begin from a uniform base product (mineral oil) instead of a very organic product (crude oil); synthetic oils are extremely consistent and durable.

This is why I always use a fully synthetic oil like the one Mobil 1 offers. The definition for synthesis is the combining of 1 or more complex elements to create a unified product. The unified product in this case not just refined crude oil, but a refined by-product of crude oil, catalyzed until it becomes one uniform lubricating polymer.

This is why I choose Mobil 1, fully synthetic oils. They work best under heat and pressure, which is why you see them on the Space Shuttle. Anyone with a turbo would see this as an effective choice as well.

93celicaconv
03-06-2011, 07:10 PM
Car_Barn-Bandit hit the nail on the head. Here is an article confirming his previous reply.

Welcome to Synthetic-Oil-Technology.info! This site is dedicated to giving you some basic facts about synthetic motor oils and other lubricants commonly used in today's cars and trucks.

What is synthetic oil?
The easiest way to define what synthetic oil is, is to define what it is NOT. Conventional motor oil as we have known it for the last 100 years or so is derived from crude oil that is taken from the earth with oil wells. Through a complex distillation process the crude oil is refined into many different liquids, or fractions, each having distinct characteristics. Some are very light and are used as fuel (gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel), and some are heavier and are used as lubricants (motor oil, gear lube, grease). There are many molecular compounds present in crude oil and many of those compounds are still present in the refined product, detracting from the physical properties of that product. For instance, paraffinnic waxes are present in crude-based oil, but contribute nothing to the lubricative properties of the oil. Also, the size of the hydrocarbon molecules themselves are non-uniform in crude-based oils. Synthetic oil contains none of these contaminants and the hydrocarbon molecules are very uniform, giving the synthetic oil base better mechanical properties at extreme high and low temperature (see the sections below on physical properties). By contrast, synthetic oil is not distilled from crude oil. It is made through a chemical process known as the Fischer-Tropsch process, starting with raw materials like methane, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide. This process was developed by Germany in WWII, when that country's access to crude oil was very limited.

Grades of oil.
Motor oils are derived from base stocks. That is, a generic oil base is modified with additives to produce a lubricant with the desired properties. A base stock oil with no additives would not perform very well at all. Base stocks are classified by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and fall into one of five categories.

•Group I and II - these are mineral oils derived from crude oil
•Group III - this is a highly refined mineral oil made through a process called hydrocracking. In North America this group is considered a synthetic oil, for marketing purposes.
•Group IV - these are true synthetic oils, known as Polyalphaolefin (PAO).
•Group V - these are synthetic stocks other than PAO's and include esters and other compounds.

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-06-2011, 08:36 PM
I know my lube.

Hipster Lawrence
03-06-2011, 11:47 PM
Group 3 or group3/4 blended oils are what most synthetic oils in the store are. They may be better than group 4s but they are not true synthetics. There obviously are "real" syn oils on the market but for the most part synthetic is a marketing term and does not refer to what is inside the bottle.

Hookecho
03-07-2011, 12:03 AM
I'm going to give Mobil 1 a shot in my next oil change.

Mr. Babb
03-07-2011, 12:56 AM
I use Mobil 1 in my Taco and have no complaints. As previously noted, I wait until Autozone or Advance have the sell on before I purchase.

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-07-2011, 02:18 AM
In other great news, Mobil 1's website has a rebate coupon. As soon as there is a sale, I am picking up a filter and 5 qts. Add in a rebate, and I'll be SET.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Promotions/Promotions.aspx

93celicaconv
03-07-2011, 12:56 PM
That Mobil I rebate is somewhat limited in which stores you have to buy the oil from - almost none of the stores which I am familiar with. But there is one on the list, so that will be my target store. Too bad, I bought a 5-quart jug of Mobil I EP this weekend from Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart is not one of the participating stores to get a rebate in the Mobil I promotion.

Just for input, I had used Castrol Syntec oil pretty much exclusively until Castrol came out with the "Edge" product, and have switched to that. Web information is not very clear, and neither are the manufacturer's websites, but I think Syntec is Group III, and Edge is Group IV. Not sure what to think about Mobil I or Mobil I EP. But I think either are pretty good oils, and if you can get a good promotional deal, either is well worth the money (for the extended oil change ranges, proovided you keep the oil clean, which is always the challenge).

klapa
03-07-2011, 08:45 PM
My GT had Royal Purple - but as soon as the weather got hot the 5S tendency to have a big lag building up oil pressure got worse with that oil - as it was 5W30 for cold climates.

I looked but couldn't find any heavy weight synthetic, so I changed to Castrol 20-50 which greatly reduced the amount of time my engine was starving for oil in the morning.

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-07-2011, 08:54 PM
You'll find oil weights to differ depending on region. Just like octane.

93celicaconv
03-07-2011, 09:36 PM
Car_Barn_Bandit, so what is the logic around what Klapa said? 5W-30 caused a big lag in oil pressure buildup in hot weather, but 20W-50 significantly reduced this effect?

In cold weather, the thinner 5W-30 oil is supposed to get to the vital moving parts quicker than the thicker 20W-50 oil. Hot weather would tend to thin out both oils, perhaps too thin for 5W-30 in somewhat worn engines. But, the flow of oil on startup should still favor the thinner oil.

Or, in Klapa's case, does it take longer for the thicker 20W-50 oil to drain back to the oil pan through the oil gallies and oil filter, where the thinner oil drains to quickly, resulting in a longer oil pressure buildup lag time?

If the above is true (oil drainback causing the problem with thinner oil), shouldn't oil filters with anti-drainback valves prevent this problem? Is the best solution for Klapa involving using a good quality oil filter that does a better job preventing oil drainback?

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-07-2011, 10:43 PM
Beats me, I'm just saying, I find different weight oil in different parts of the country. :)

klapa
03-08-2011, 12:16 AM
I will say first that my car did not come with OEM oil filter (STP oil filter) - and I now see the advantage to using an OEM oil filter - especially in a 5SFE which seems to have this problem worse than other 5th gen engines. (I have not yet tried an OEM oil filter). Neither my 4Afe nor my 3SGTE engine exhibit this "phenomenon".

That being said - my "theory" is that the heavier weight oil sticks to the internal parts better allowing pressure to build more quickly due to some oil still being in the top end.

I can say - changing the oil made a very perceptible difference in my case - before with the thinner oil I would always have an anxious second or two with valve clatter - after using the thicker oil I would still have my oil light on for longer than I thought it should be - but no valve clatter.

Yes - different weights for different climates - but the point is that the synthetic oil is not commonly available in heavier weights - and here in NC I would NEVER need 5W - 20W is the minimum I would ever need for my climate.

93celicaconv
03-08-2011, 12:33 AM
Klapa, thanks for the clarification. My '93 Celica GT convertible with the 5S-FE also exhibits considerable valve clatter after the engine has been shut down several hours or more. I tend to use 10W-30 synthetics. I've used Toyota OEM filters, Mobil I oil filters, Fram Extended Guard (10,000 miles service life) filters, all having anti-drainback valves. All filters exhibited the same issue with the 10W-30 synthetic oils. And, when I change the oil & filter, in as little as 1/2-hour from engine shutdown to oil filter removal, the oil filter is always completely empty, no matter which one I've used.

Therefore, I think the problem on 5S-FE engines is that no anti-drainback oil filter really can hold oil and prevent drainback for more than 1/2-hr, and thus the valve clatter sound.

You may be right about the heavier weight oils staying in the parts more, which reduces startup noise. But, I was hoping that if the anti-drainback valves in these filters really work, one wouldn't have this startup noise (and possibly wear) issue.

Neither of my 2 4A-FE engines have this issue.

I would have thought the 3S-GTE engine would have this issue, based on the fact that I think the oil filter location and posiition is the same as on the 5S-FE (base tipped to the bottom), making is far easier for an oil filter to leak oil past the anti-drainback valve and allow the oil to get back into the oil pan.

Wish I knew better how to correct this issue.

Hipster Lawrence
03-08-2011, 12:42 AM
Heavier oils will build more pressure simply because they are thicker. More resistance to flow=more pressure.

If you are having an oil pressure issue your main bearings are most likely worn. That is where pressure comes from.

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-08-2011, 12:52 AM
High Mileage Mobil 1 is supposed to be better for older engines in that it's viscosity is designed specifically for coating engine components and staying there. I have driven in a couple cars where that has saved an engine from damage. When I do my next change soon, I will be using this exact formula.

klapa
03-08-2011, 01:00 AM
To me - aside from better high temp performance (which is debatable in my opinion), the primary "selling point" for synthetic oil is a longer interval between changes while still maintaining the initial specifications.

Yet this "benefit" really does not take into account climate. Sure - if you live in a place like Arizona or California with low humidity and a fairly constant temperature, you can take advantage of this "mileage dividend".

Yet if you live, like I do, in a place where the temperature and humidity vary wildly, then it is not engine and heat stress that is the enemy of your oil's ability to do it's job - it is more likely contamination due o condensation of moisture in yoyr crankcase and thus addition of water to your oil.

I've seen plenty od specs how synthetic oil out-performs conventional oil as far as engine parameters are concerned - but never seen a claim that synthetic oil stands up better to moisture contamination than conventional oil.

I've used Castrol GTX for over twenty years - it has worked great and is available in many different weights to suit the application. Add to that the cost is much less than the synthetic oil.

There is no replacing FREQUENT oil and filter changes - I don't care what you use.

klapa
03-08-2011, 01:02 AM
High Mileage Mobil 1 is supposed to be better for older engines in that it's viscosity is designed specifically for coating engine components and staying there. I have driven in a couple cars where that has saved an engine from damage. When I do my next change soon, I will be using this exact formula.

Not my experience with Royal Purple. Again - because the heavier weight is not available.

93celicaconv
03-08-2011, 01:07 AM
No oil pressure issue, once the oil gallies are full and flowing oil. I have an electronic oil gauge on my A-pillar. It reads well above the minimum pressure values stated in the BGB. It's just as Klapa says, when sitting overnight, after the engine starts, the oil pressure gauge reads ZERO and the valves clatter until 2 seconds after startup (sometimes it seems more, but I'm sure it is within 2 seconds), then the oil pressure gauge jumps to 65 psi (with cool/cold oil) and at the exact same time, the valve clatter stops. This isn't a backpressure issue caused by excessive clearances due to wear. It's an issue where there is no oil in the oil filter and oil gallies on startup, and the normal time it takes to pump the oil filter and gallies full of oil until the oils starts flowing through the valve train.

Sorry that I got this thread off-track. But this is an interesting topic, of which I still don't have a solution for. Sounds like some other 5S-FE owners have the same issue too.

Car_Barn_Bandit
03-08-2011, 01:07 AM
10w-40 isn't enough for ya? I have been using 10w-30 HM for years.

EDIT: Advance Auto is having a $32.99 sale for 5qts of Mobil 1 and a filter. I don't feel like driving to one, so I'll just get AutoBone to price match.

jdm_celica_gts
03-11-2011, 03:57 AM
I run royal purple in my car and im happy with it. i have no problems with it yet and i have been using it for about a half a year

Car_Barn_Bandit
04-04-2011, 09:28 AM
I recently looked inside a 5SFE after I pulled an oil pan. Black, burned and deposits everywhere.

I compared it to my engine, running synthetic. My engine looks clean inside. Conventional vs. Synthetic visual comparison is almost a joke.

Ill see if I have time to post pics of my insides tomorrow to show you the Mobil 1 advantage.

sailingpj
04-12-2011, 01:03 AM
Just depends on the history of the car. If you have been using conventional oil and have a lot of miles on the car id stick to that. Because syn oil will do a lot of cleaning and you might get oil leaks. And I always like to use a toyota filter but if I can't get one I use a purolator pure1

Is that really a big concern? The synthetic oil causing leaks? I just bought a 92 celica GTS with 231,000 miles on it. I don't know when the last oil change was so I will be changing it here in the next couple weeks. I don't want to cause any leaks by putting the wrong oil in.

T-spoon
04-12-2011, 01:14 AM
^ I don't think synthetic oil CAUSES oil leaks, but it will sure find places to leak if there are any.

Car_Barn_Bandit
04-12-2011, 01:19 AM
^ I don't think synthetic oil CAUSES oil leaks, but it will sure find places to leak if there are any.

Like a bondo rigged oil pan.

sailingpj
04-12-2011, 01:24 AM
I think I'll put in regular oil this time then. I already found enough problems to last me for a while.

Luni
04-12-2011, 02:41 AM
Heres a good read. Ill repost it here because its very pertinent to this thread. It also discusses weights.

Theres no reason to up the first number unless youre running dino oil (not synthetic) and not changing at the recommended intervals (I expand on this below)

It goes like this:

First weight (in front of the W) means "winter" weight. This is also referred to as the "cold cranking weight"
Second weight is the "at temp" - natural weight

All the 3 following oils will lubricate the same at temp in a given brand (different brands will vary their thickness per weight ratings) (dino or synthetic, but you cant compare dino to synthetic - Ill get to that in a minute): 0w30, 5w30, 10w30. The only difference between the 3 is how thin the oil gets when the temperature drops to "ambient". Overall, in a perfect world, the 0w30 will be better for your engine, since it protects better when the engine is cold (meaning NOT warmed up), and it protects the same at temperature.

The difference between a synthetic and a dino oil multiweight oil is this: A 5w30 dino oil starts out life as a 5 weight oil, and it has VI modifiers to make it a 30 weight at temperature. A 5w30 synthetic oil starts out life as a 30 weight that is 5 weight when cold.

Heres the thing that screws with you. As you run the oil, over time, the modifiers wear down, and the dino oil that started out life as a 5 weight will return to a 5 weight because it thins out as the modifiers run out (this is the main reason for the 3000-5000 oil change interval on dino oil). Where as a synthetic oil will stay the 30 weight throughout the life of the oil but its detergents will run out, and the oil will take on dirt etc. Synthetics dont have any VI modifiers in them *Note on synthetics: some oils claim to be synthetics but theyre just Group 3 base oil stocks but theyre not true synthetics. Note these Group 3 base oils are only considered synthetics in the US. Nowhere else in the world acknowledges them as true synthetics. A true synthetic comes from a Group 4 or 5 base stock - 4 is a polyalphaoefin and 5 are synthetic esters. Group3 is dino oil thats been "hydrocracked" or "hydroisomerized" and still come from crude oil and still follow the same rules when breaking down as a standard dino, it just takes longer to break them down. As far as I can tell, there are only a few Group IV PAO synthetics around anymore. Most of what you see are "synthetics" arent. Mobil 1 has remained true and is a PAO Grp4, so is GERMAN Castrol Syntec (it has to say "made in Germany" on the back of the bottle), as are Redline, Amsoil, and some of the other specialty oils. The rest of the "so called synthetics" arent true synthetics.

Another thing about dino vs synthetic, even at a standard same weight, (we will say 5w30 since thats all Ive been talking about in this for comparison sake), the synthetic will protect better at startup, and be thinner when its cold. The synthetic will stick to the engine parts better and longer, and be slipperier all the while doing it. Its a crazy thought, but really when it comes down to it, a synthetic oil just isnt a little bit better, its WAY better. In pretty much every way. So theres another thing to think about.

So, there is absolutely no reason to run a 20w50 oil over a 0w50 oil especially if youre talking about synthetic oils. The 20w50 oil if its dino will be too thick at startup, only protect marginally better at temp, but its saving grace is, once its VI modifiers wear down, it will still be a 20 weight oil which will protect you much better at temp than a 0 weight would.

The real way to find out what oil grade you should run would be to use an oil pressure gauge and find out at temperature what oil raises your oil pressure 10 psi per 1000 rpms of engine rotation.

So, for the MR2, I think a 0w40 or a 0w50 oil may be the ticket. I have since found out the German Castrol 0w30 is actually more like a 0w40 which is perfect to me for the MR2. For a newer car, like my 2000 Celica GTS, a 0w30 oil will be the ticket for me. For that car I think Ill run Mobil 1 in there. And synthetic all the way. After learning about the main difference between synthetic and dino multigrade oils, I wont run a dino anymore.

Everyone says "the oil you use is up to you, everyone has their own preferences", but the big thing here is, the majority of people you encounter in life do NOT understand exactly what those numbers mean, the real differences between dino and synthetic, and how to apply those numbers to a car/driving situation.

sailingpj
04-12-2011, 02:57 AM
Wow, thanks for all the info. I'll have to think about this a little more before I decide.

Luni
04-12-2011, 03:18 AM
One thing worth adding to what I posted here, as your engine wears out and your bearing/engine tolerances decrease (things loosen up), you might find yourself needing to increase the weight of the oil you run. Youll have people tell you 20w50 is good in older engines, in theory it isnt, but sometimes it is, but usually if it is, and you have to run 20w50 its because your engine is on its last legs and there are other things wrong.

Luni
06-03-2011, 06:14 AM
Also, worth mentioning, if you use shitty oil filters, with shitty anti drainback valves, you will experience clatter longer after startup.

If youre too cheap to buy Toyota filters, at least spend some money on a Puralator. They are proven to be better than pretty much anything else in the commercial market, and theyre cheap.

Terracar
06-03-2011, 02:41 PM
What I would add has already been said, so not going to bother repeating. Other than that - I have to ask what does your dealership charge for oil filters?

My local dealership sells the oil filters for 2 for $7 - this doesn't even include my discount. This is cheaper than most other filters in my area. So as you can imagine, I usually have a stock of filters (though down to my last one) and I just wait for Wally world to have the 5qt Mobil1 on sale for $23 ($28 reg price) and stock up.

-Terracar

93celicaconv
06-04-2011, 02:55 PM
I also think Toyota makes very good oil filters, and the cost is very reasonable. I like the Fram XG (Extended Guard) filters, WIX, Mobil I, and the top line within Purolator. On my 5S-FE though, I do have a momentary valve clatter on cold startup, and I've used all these filters, and none had any affect on this valve clatter (either reducing it, making it worse, or eliminating it). I've had the valve lash checked, and I've done the bearing to cam journal clearance check with plastigage, and all are within tolerance. So what the cause is for this momentary valve clatter, I have no idea. But some of you don't have it, and some of us do. Wish I knew the answer to this one.

Luni
06-04-2011, 06:40 PM
Captains vert had a fram on it. It had bad startup clack and took a long tine for the oil light to go out. I told him to try a puralator. He did. The noise and the duration of the light got much better.

MrWOT
06-04-2011, 07:48 PM
And just for reference purolator pureone=mobil1=k&n

all use the same core

reeves
06-14-2011, 05:09 PM
I'm going to either rebuild or swap in a 3SGTE around January or December. Maybe I'll switch then.
If you're going to do a rebuild or swap soon.. just save your money for now and buy regular oil.. Once you got your new motor in you can start using the Synthetic if you like.

Mafix
06-14-2011, 05:59 PM
not that my car applies...but...i ONLY use valvoline racing synthetics. you guys should be more worried about what is in the oil and oil temps rather than what what label it hides behind.

also i vary between 20w50 (summer) and 10w30 (winter). my oil is lucky to see 2K miles on it before changing. but then my throttle is a 2 position switch, lol! the dragon is probabily the longest i've driven on the same oil.

Facime
06-14-2011, 06:15 PM
Heavier oils will build more pressure simply because they are thicker. More resistance to flow=more pressure.

If you are having an oil pressure issue your main bearings are most likely worn. That is where pressure comes from.

Actually most toyotas build oil pressure in the cam bearings, not the mains.

Luni
06-14-2011, 06:24 PM
not that my car applies...but...i ONLY use valvoline racing synthetics. you guys should be more worried about what is in the oil and oil temps rather than what what label it hides behind.

also i vary between 20w50 (summer) and 10w30 (winter). my oil is lucky to see 2K miles on it before changing. but then my throttle is a 2 position switch, lol! the dragon is probabily the longest i've driven on the same oil.

Done shitloads of research lately on synthetics and what not, and Valvoline is NOT on the list of oils I see that are actually using Grade 4 and 5 oils, which would lead me to believe its likely a grade 3. Unless you got something that says its not. In fact this is what I drug up on Valvoline SynPower - Components CAS-No. Concentration
DISTILLATES (PETROLEUM),
HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAF
64742-54-7 >=80-<90%

To anyone who dont know - that means its Group 3 treated dino oil. So, Mafix, it seems like YOU should be the one concerned about whats in YOUR oil LOL. I KNOW whats in mine.

EDIT, just reread you are using Valvoline RACING stuff. So, exactly what formulation are you using? Whats the actual name of the oil you put in your car?

Car_Barn_Bandit
06-14-2011, 06:35 PM
So, Mafix, it seems like YOU should be the one concerned about whats in YOUR oil LOL. I KNOW whats in mine.

Heh.

I know exactly what's NOT in my oil with a full synthetic. That's how I see all this....

Waffles!
06-14-2011, 06:51 PM
not that my car applies...but...i ONLY use valvoline racing synthetics. you guys should be more worried about what is in the oil and oil temps rather than what what label it hides behind.

If you're using VR1, I'm sorry, but that's dino oil.


Valvoline VR1 is a conventional, non-synthetic racing oil.

Info can be found here (http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/)

But I did find their "not street legal" stuff.... but the site didn't say whether it was dino oil or not...

Facime
06-14-2011, 07:23 PM
Last I looked there was no more "german" castrol to be found. They now package the "european formula" but I couldnt find anything that said it was the same or not.


Oil is all about the addative pack. Forget viscosity for a minute and look a little deeper into whats actually IN your oil. The base stocks are all relatively the same (when comparing apples to apples at least). Its really the pack that should be considered more for a given application rather than viscosity.

CriScO
06-14-2011, 07:26 PM
If you're using VR1, I'm sorry, but that's dino oil.



Info can be found here (http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/)
That FAQ is addressing the original VR1. There is also a Synpower VR1 available.

I can't speak on the chemistry behind them or the percentage of synthetic components, but that version does exist. I've got it on my shelf.

There was a wear test article posted here a long time ago, I'll have to dig it up. Valvoline Durablend, their part synthetic, actually performed better than some of the full synthetics tested. That's why it's running in my cars right now.

To play devil's advocate here Rob, absence of proof isn't proof itself. A lot of hardcore racers would omit Valvoline from tests simply because it isn't Royal Purple or Amsoil. With that said I don't know the grade myself, but there's enough evidence to merit finding out for sure.

Luni
06-14-2011, 10:30 PM
I can get German Castrol. Next time I go to my autozone I'll snap a pic.

klapa
06-15-2011, 12:49 AM
I have been wondering about this debate - I am up for a change on my little ST 4AFE with high miles - 245K - and wonder if it is safe to switch to synthetic for such an old engine.

There are no signs of sludge in my valve cover - and no start-up oil pressure problems like I had with my 5SFE - so I am toying with the idea of changing over to synthetic in the ST.

CriScO
06-15-2011, 01:00 AM
I have been wondering about this debate - I am up for a change on my little ST 4AFE with high miles - 245K - and wonder if it is safe to switch to synthetic for such an old engine.

There are no signs of sludge in my valve cover - and no start-up oil pressure problems like I had with my 5SFE - so I am toying with the idea of changing over to synthetic in the ST.
Safe by itself, yes. However, if you leak anything with standard, it will increase with synthetic. Sometimes it can expose leaks you didn't know about as well.

So I say go for it, but keep an eye on your level. If it starts to leak enough your cost-benefit ratio goes out the window because you have to keep buying $8 quarts of oil.

Mafix
06-15-2011, 01:44 AM
lol again i use a very specific oil. so lets not worry about my weird oil.

Waffles!
06-15-2011, 02:31 AM
lol again i use a very specific oil. so lets not worry about my weird oil.

No! I demand to debate the effectiveness of your oil!:bigsmile:

Luni
06-15-2011, 05:24 AM
I'm just curious what you run Mafix.

sodap0p
06-15-2011, 03:07 PM
Nippon Oil... Eneos 0W50 is what I use. http://www.eneos.us/product/2

T-spoon
06-15-2011, 03:46 PM
I'm just curious what you run Mafix.

It is not for you to know the secret of the ooze!!!

Luni
06-15-2011, 04:11 PM
LOL. Eneos is good stuff, not sure if Id run even a 0w50 but whatevz.

allTRACway
06-17-2011, 04:50 AM
Alright how do all you feel about amsoil i am just starting a build going for 500 horse im hoping and am living in mn i plan on moving to co in a few years. I have a buddie who wont use anything but amsoil and im just starting to look at oils i know they run a lot of tests and with many of them mobile one is the next best thing compared to amsoil but how do both do in a modded motor

Hipster Lawrence
06-17-2011, 12:06 PM
Amsoil is a joke. It's a mutli level marketing scheme like Amway. They do all their own testing and won't let their oils be tested by the OEMs. It doesn't meet a single oem oil requirement. It's not factory fill for any car.

It may well be the best oil in the world but without independent testing who knows. I'd stick with redline or mobil 1. Better yet use the ford motorcraft semi syn oil made for the ford GT.

MrWOT
06-17-2011, 03:08 PM
BTW, do not use VR1. It's racing oil, thus lacks detergent. Suitable only for short term use.

Luni
06-17-2011, 04:21 PM
Amsoil is a joke. It's a mutli level marketing scheme like Amway. They do all their own testing and won't let their oils be tested by the OEMs. It doesn't meet a single oem oil requirement. It's not factory fill for any car.

It may well be the best oil in the world but without independent testing who knows. I'd stick with redline or mobil 1. Better yet use the ford motorcraft semi syn oil made for the ford GT.

GC is still above them all. Thats what Im gonna use and you can go catch a fish!

Mafix
06-17-2011, 04:36 PM
i've done all the "racing oil" research i needed. amsoil (yes i am one of the few who have the specs) racing oil doesn't hold a stick to what i'm using. amsoil is horribly inconsistant in thier addatives.

waffles and luni: my engine requires a certain level of zinc in the oil, i have to special order it everytime i need to change the oil. the oil i use cannot be used with "wet clutch" applications or any vehicle that uses iridium plugs or a catalytic converter. and VR1 is junk.

4thgenceli
06-17-2011, 05:15 PM
So..i should run amsoil in my gen4 3sgte... :P



(I kid I kid). I'm leaning toward either royal purple or mobile1 after I run two changes of standard 10w30 through the motor.

Hipster Lawrence
06-18-2011, 02:50 AM
i've done all the "racing oil" research i needed. amsoil (yes i am one of the few who have the specs) racing oil doesn't hold a stick to what i'm using. amsoil is horribly inconsistant in thier addatives.

waffles and luni: my engine requires a certain level of zinc in the oil, i have to special order it everytime i need to change the oil. the oil i use cannot be used with "wet clutch" applications or any vehicle that uses iridium plugs or a catalytic converter. and VR1 is junk.

RCR oil? And why would it care what spark plugs you run? As far as wet clutches no oil with friction modifiers or detergents are compatible.

I'm curious as to why you are keeping it a secret. You don't race the car right? And your setup was on display for all to see at the meet.

Mafix
06-18-2011, 03:15 PM
there are tons of things that very few know. i prefer it stay that way.
nope not rcr oil. and for some weird reason the tiny amount of oil that gets into the combustion chamber just eats IR plugs. i didn't believe it myself, until i tried it. very very strange. but whatever. copper plugs work great.
as for racing, i haven't in a while. once i finally finish what i'm currently up to with the car i'm going to try and get into scca solo events. possibly more. but i'm pretty sure i'm done drag racing (minus a couple funs runs here and there)

klapa
06-18-2011, 03:44 PM
Safe by itself, yes. However, if you leak anything with standard, it will increase with synthetic. Sometimes it can expose leaks you didn't know about as well.

So I say go for it, but keep an eye on your level. If it starts to leak enough your cost-benefit ratio goes out the window because you have to keep buying $8 quarts of oil.

Well - as of now I don't have any leaks at all - not even a hint of a mist on my engine in the ST. Even for my Alltrac - which is an electrical mess - there is not even a drop of oil on the pavement under that car.



I think I will try the Valvolene DuraBlend you mentioned above - that might be a good "transition" to try.

I don't know about any "brand loyalt" - but I always ran Valvolene 40W monograde in my 426 Hemi Plymouth and it performed great (all eight quarts of it).

Mafix
06-20-2011, 02:34 PM
8 qts on my 3s as well. very very expensive o/c

Luni
06-20-2011, 06:54 PM
Really? Your oil is some big secret?

That pretty much bugs. Sorry man, but thats the at.net mentality. Theres not a single damn thing about my car that I wouldnt tell someone out in the open. I dont care if I found the coolest damn thing on the planet and nobody else knew about it, Id tell. Because secrets are not a community made.

Facime
06-20-2011, 08:23 PM
LMAO at oil being a secret. He just doesnt want to admit he uses Autozone brand oil.

Mafix
06-20-2011, 08:58 PM
aw you guessed it. 1.50 a qt.
no i'm not sharing because of people who just go out and buy what someone says. oil is like a turbo. if you don't research it you may as well put a grenade under the hood.

in fact: i don't share a lot of things. i only advise people on things. what works for me won't necessarily work for you. i hope you guys can understand that. i can't stand when someone goes out and buys the same setup as someone else because said person made this and that. that's bs in my book.

AND JUST TO FURTHER NOTE; i have said what i'm using. valvoline racing oil. it has no certification and can only be used in certain applications.

MrWOT
06-20-2011, 09:05 PM
I ran Alisyn for a while. Great stuff, but requires multiple levels of filtration to be in place for it to be worth it. Unless you're made of money....

Mafix
06-20-2011, 09:55 PM
i ONLY use valvoline racing synthetics

i felt this was where i posted it.

T-spoon
06-20-2011, 11:47 PM
Where can I buy the valvoline racing synthics? Those sound like the best and I'm going to use them in the stock 1zz in the MRS now!




Edit: This is a joke, btw, thought I was in OT for a sec, sorry. :hehe:

klapa
06-21-2011, 12:11 AM
I just went to Advance (which is very near my house) and bought the Valvolene "Durablend" to try in my high miles 4AFE - along with some Denso plugs and Purolator Oil and Air filters.

CriScO
06-21-2011, 02:32 AM
I just went to Advance (which is very near my house) and bought the Valvolene "Durablend" to try in my high miles 4AFE - along with some Denso plugs and Purolator Oil and Air filters.
It's good stuff, should work well for you from what you've said here. The only regret I've had is how much of it the coupe leaks, but that's the car, not the oil. :hehe: I'll be putting it in the hatchback before she's back on the road, too.