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lalojamesliz
02-22-2011, 01:29 PM
Has anyone done the big 3 upgrade and upgraded the power supply wires going to the fuse box? Or are they big enough already? I did my battery relocation the way in the captains thread and used 0/1 guage cable and put a 200 amp fuse next to the battery. I bought a 140 amp alternator and was wondering if I should I put a bigger fuse than 200 amp.... What do you guys think?

The Captain
02-22-2011, 01:34 PM
I'm running a 100 amp fuse, btw. The starter probably pulls more juice than the charging pushes back through the system, so the 200 should be fine. Pics!!!

lalojamesliz
02-22-2011, 02:09 PM
I'm about to drive home from my job right now but I'll take some pics when it's put back together later today I hope :) I've been running this set up for like 1.5 yrs captain but I finally ran it the correct way (passenger side instead of driver side) And cranking has not been a problem until lately but I think that's because of my 70 amp alternator. I should have my 140 amp alternator today or tomorrow though. Do you think the 200amp fuse would still be ok?

The Captain
02-22-2011, 02:24 PM
200 is plenty. You only need one main fuse near the battery. I think I have a 100 amp between my distribution block and my main fuse panel. What are you running from your block to your starter? I ran two 4 gauge wires high current wires. It's not your alternator if it's working normally as I'm still running stock.

lalojamesliz
02-22-2011, 02:29 PM
Btw I ran the power wire through the passenger side because I was getting engine noise through my speakers like you said would happen if I ran it through the drivers side but it was only when I used the Bluetooth??? Now after I re-ran it it still make the engine noise ony on Bluetooth :( ill get a power noise filter and try that

lalojamesliz
02-22-2011, 02:38 PM
I should really refresh the page befor I post when I take a long time to post my questions lol. I'm sure it's my alternator well.... I think it's my alternator not being able to handle all of the load from my headlights and heater. I have battery posts that have a voltage display and right now while driving home I was seeing my voltage was at 14.2-14.5 while cruising and it would drip to 12.3-13.4 when I would come to a stop. That's with my headlights on and brakes applied. I didn't mess with the power wire to the starter.... On my distribution block I only have the two stock wires that I cut off the original battery post, the 0/1 guage power cable from my battery and a power wire that goes to another small distribution block that powers my W2A pump and fan and my horns. Should I upgrade the starter cable? Does it go from the power block straight to the starter? Also back to one of my original questions, are the power wires in the fuse box big enough? Sorry about all the questions

ChrisD
02-22-2011, 03:53 PM
Upgrading the alt to fuse box wires is never a bad idea. Some have been able to find a measurable voltage drop between battery and alternator simply due to the wires. I am doing this as we speak actually. So yes, I'd do it.

Starter cable, doubt you'd need to if your connection is still in the engine bay. But you could. Yes it is straight from the power block to the starter. There is a thinner wire that acts as the switch, the big one handles the load.

ChrisD
02-22-2011, 04:35 PM
I just re-read that you are running a 140A alternator. In that case, yes, definitely upgrade your alt to battery wire. There is a lot of info on the internet about wire gauge requirements, however I would probably suggest 4 gauge. Sounds beefy (and it is, especially if you compare to stock), but it should also resolve many related issues. If just adding a "helper wire" (ie. keeping the original wiring and adding another to it), you could probably get away with a 6 or maybe an 8 gauge.

I will be using 4 gauge for mine. My batt to starter wire is a bit different, b/c the length is much longer due to the connection being in the interior (wire tuck)....but probably 2 gauge.

Here is a good link: http://www.the12volt.com/wiring/recwirsz.asp

alltracman78
02-22-2011, 06:08 PM
It's not necessarily a bad idea to "upgrade" the alt to fuse box wires [2 large white ones], but make sure you use good quality wire, most auto parts wire isn't all that great and may actually cause more resistance than the original wire.
The condition of the wires plays a factor too, your car being in CA means there should be less corrosion on the actual wire strands. This is a good thing.

A couple of quick points.
First off, it doesn't matter much how large your alt is, what the vehicle is pulling is more important. Your 140a alt isn't going to be pumping 140 amps all the time [honestly, it probably never will, unless you have a big system in the car].
Second, the alt wires run to the fuse box, not directly to the battery or to the starter. There's another smaller wire that runs from the fuse box to the battery to charge it and power the car. As far as your alt fuse goes, you need the fuse in this circuit, not in the large battery to starter cable circuit.
Third, it's pretty unlikely your alt is what's causing extended cranking. Most likely your starter is worn, or you have bad connections somewhere in the circuit. Or your battery is bad.
*I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking when I posted that last sentence. If you're having an extended cranking issue it's not from your battery, starter or bad connections. Those are all working fine; your starter is working the way it's supposed to. You're having an issue with lack of fuel, spark or compression.
A weak battery, bad connections or bad starter would cause the starter to click, or not work at all. *

ChrisD
02-22-2011, 06:41 PM
^good points - if upgrading, the whole circuit going from alt to fuse box to battery should be considered. I think the stock fuse to alt wires are 2 8 gauge wires.

I would personally build it for the maximum expected output, whether that be 70A or 140A. But you're right, it's probably on to the lower end 99% of the time unless running a lot of extras. For quality, good welding cable can be a good alternative for the larger gauge wire. It's a bit cheaper than audio cable as it usually doesn't have the translucent sheathing.

For starting issues, could also easily be an ignition related issue. Lots of possibilities.

lalojamesliz
02-23-2011, 05:31 AM
Here is my current set up...70 amp alternator and a Red top optima in the rear.I should have my 140 amp alternator tomorrow :) 0/1 guage wire (monster cable oxygen free, about $65 for a 20' or 25' roll) used for my ground (battery to my rear seat belt bolt) then the same wire for my battery to the original battery location with a 200 amp fuse about a foot from the battery. On my distribution block I have the bigger power wire and small blue wire that were on the original battery terminal. I have a 4 guage helper cable with a 60 amp fuse from the alternator to the distribution block were the battery was It also has a 8 guage power wire to a smaller distribution block that supplys power to 2 relays that control my horns and the other fuse is for the A2W pump and fan (a/c fan) that are always on with the engine. I had a very busy day today so I'll try my best to take pics tomorrow when I wake up. I also cleaned all of the grounding locations and connectors. My battery is in great health. I had it tested for 2 days by the battery shop That sold it to me. They told me my charging system is nt charging it properly that's why I'm having startng issues. I believe them because my car started fine for a few days after they fully charged it then it started again. I swapped in a st205 starter thinking it was my starter but it does the exact same thing.

alltracman78
02-23-2011, 01:34 PM
First, get rid of that power distribution block and 200a fuse. You do NOT need it. All those extra unnecessary connetions can/will cause problems. The larger battery cable should go DIRECTLY from the positive battery terminal to the terminal on the starter. Nothing in between.
Second, in addition to a same gauge ground from the battery to the trunk [in a good location] you also need a same gauge ground from the transmission [best place IMO is from the rear starter bolt] to the chassis up front.
THIS will ensure you have a good clean circuit from the battery to starter.

Your smaller wires that run to the power distribution block can be ran to the post on the starter, or back to the positive terminal of the battery.

Last, which problem are you having?
The starter turns over fine, the engine just takes a little while to start.
The starter won't turn over, it clicks or doesn't do anything.

The Captain
02-24-2011, 01:57 AM
First, get rid of that ****** 200a fuse. You do NOT need it. .

Unless your intent was troubleshooting, I couldn't disagree more. If a 0/1 power cable were to ground fault with a battery inside the passenger compartment it would be VERY BAD without fuse protection. It's worth a little resistance.

You're idea of the power to the starter is logical and ground theory is spot on. The current you deliver to the starter is directly proportional to the contact area of it's terminal once you've reached the maximum gauge requirement. Hooking up a 5 inch high tension transmission line will only deliver so much current through a 1/4 inch diameter lug. Connecting a 0/1 terminal and a 4 ga terminal to the starter terminal poses it's own challenge but is certainly do-able. The stock setup uses a 4 gauge wire on about a 15 inch run from the battery to the starter. If you deliver the same energy potential from the back of the car via 0/1 wire to a distribution block then a 4 ga wire at the same distance should meet the requirement. For the record I've had no trouble with my setup for 6 years now.

lalojamesliz
02-24-2011, 06:21 AM
I was thinking about leaving the fuse for protection but I like the idea of taking out the distribution block that is were the battery terminals were and using the starter but I don't have a crimper to crimp 0/1 guage lugs and I really don't want to pull the 0/1 cable out of the car again. The last time I did this I had the shop that sold me my optima crimp the lugs for me. I'll find a way. My distribution block has two 0/1 ports..... I'll just run a 0/1 wire to the starter from the distribution block and add a 0/1 guage cable from the starter to the chassis like you guys said. My negative cable that goes to my battery is a bit too long (mabey 3 feet) were do you guys have that wire grounded?

GT4RC
02-24-2011, 10:20 AM
if that fuse is between your battery and your audio gear, DO NOT remove it. Amplifiers, when they blow, can cause a short(fire) and always put in a fuse that is rated to the gauge of wire that you run. if the wire wants to melt at an 80 amp load and you have a 200 amp fuse on there, it isn't going to do it's job.

And I'm not sure, but isn't 1/0 for your starter more than overkill? What is the stock gauge for this wire?

alltracman78
02-25-2011, 07:09 PM
Unless your intent was troubleshooting, I couldn't disagree more. If a 0/1 power cable were to ground fault with a battery inside the passenger compartment it would be VERY BAD without fuse protection. It's worth a little resistance.
You're right, it is the safe thing to do and the main problem is the distribution block, not the fuse. However, considering a 0g wire is normally rated with a safe max of 150 amps [1g is a little above 100 amps], if you're going to do it right you want a 150 amp [or lower] fuse. At which point you're approaching the power requirements of the starter. It's doable, but there's a relatively small window.


You're idea of the power to the starter is logical and ground theory is spot on. The current you deliver to the starter is directly proportional to the contact area of it's terminal once you've reached the maximum gauge requirement. Hooking up a 5 inch high tension transmission line will only deliver so much current through a 1/4 inch diameter lug. Connecting a 0/1 terminal and a 4 ga terminal to the starter terminal poses it's own challenge but is certainly do-able. The stock setup uses a 4 gauge wire on about a 15 inch run from the battery to the starter. If you deliver the same energy potential from the back of the car via 0/1 wire to a distribution block then a 4 ga wire at the same distance should meet the requirement. For the record I've had no trouble with my setup for 6 years now.
In theory, yes. But adding the resistance of 10 or so feet of cable plus the connections and dist block mean you don't have the same power available as you would if you were running directly off the battery. If your battery isn't super strong or your starter is old it just makes it worse.
I'm sure yours works fine, and so do a lot of others. But it causes problems other times and is a perfect example of something that "works" but isn't the best way to go about it. I've noticed a decent number of people having starting issues after moving thier battery to the back and using this setup.
My Alltrac was having starting issues [had this setup] 'til I took the dist block out and set it up as I described. The OP most likely would have the same result.

lalojamesliz
02-26-2011, 06:17 AM
You had the same problem and the way you suggested I do it fixed the starting problem? Damn now I really want to do that and will. The problem I have is I don't know how I can crimp a 0/1 lug while it's on my car so I can connect it to the starter :( I don't even know if I can crimp it to begin with :(

lalojamesliz
03-01-2011, 10:20 AM
Quick update: I got some of my 0/1 guage wire and had some lugs crimped on the ends so now I have my trans to chassis ground and I bought a extra 0/1 lug and a decent vise (finally) so I can connect my + power wire to my starter and connect my A2W stuff to that also. I hope this fixes my starting problem also.