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View Full Version : If I had a SAFC...



CollapsedNut
02-21-2011, 03:00 AM
What would I do with it? Say my build was a 3SGE, bored .020" over, compression increased some, mild cams or a regrind.Edit: and a wideband of course.
Would I actually be able to gain anything from a SAFC?
Would it be worth getting and taking to a dyno for tuning?

.

joe's gt
02-21-2011, 04:24 AM
I would sell it. No point in putting all that work into an engine and then doing a band aid engine management modification

CollapsedNut
02-21-2011, 04:28 AM
What if all the engine work was all ready done, and the afc was an after thought lol

UtahSleeper
02-21-2011, 06:25 AM
Just get a stand alone. Like a megasquirt or something. I think even in stock form, a stand alone or fuel management gives most people gains just cause the tuning from the factory sucks. I have read about people changing the ECU on an alltrac and gaining more throttle and hp with no other changes.

Luni
02-21-2011, 06:44 AM
On an NA car, I doubt youd gain much from an SAFC, but you COULD in theory.

Ill indulge you instead of just saying DONT USE IT.

If your car has a knock sensor, and you are serious about wanting to front the money on a dyno to tune an SAFC, then you can run a baseline, and watch your AFRs, and see if you get below 13:1 on stock tuning. If you do, you can use the SAFC to lean it out a bit. NA cars want a ~13.5 AFR to be in their happy spot. They can run less fuel more aggressively than a boosted car (which you want around 11-11.5)

If you have a knock sensor that will protect you from detonation (even better yet a set of det cans for tuning), you could MAYBE squeeze 5-10 hp and some throttle response and fuel economy out of it if you did it right. The key to using an SAFC is understanding what exactly youre doing by messing with your air fuel readings.

Your ECU knows load on the engine by its air flow metering (or map) system. SAFCs intercept that signal and tweak it. Making the ECU think more air is entering the engine than really is will result in a richer condition overall. Making it think less air is entering the engine will lean it out. It will also mess with your timing. If the ECU thinks less air is entering the engine it will advance the timing more. The more air, the less overall timing advance you get, etc.

So, yeah, you MIGHT be able to do something with it. Not sure if it would be worth it, but in theory you COULD use it safely. You really need to read up on how they work, and what not.

CollapsedNut
02-21-2011, 02:44 PM
You really need to read up on how they work, and what not.

PSSSSHHHHTT. What are read? LMAO

I realize its really not needed or worth it, but if I score a good deal on one, Id use it I think. I dont plan and wont be buy a standalone cause Im too cheap.
So its either a little somethin extra from a AFC or staying stock.

MrTurrari
02-21-2011, 07:10 PM
You can certainly get a little more power out of your mods by using the SAFC to get AFRs back in line with where the cams make power. However an even better idea would be to over-clock your ECU to increase your red line to match where the cams make torque and then use the SAFC to bring AFRs back where they should be. Depending on the cams, you may only have to over-clock 5-8%. You will likely have to add fuel across the board with the SAFC which will retard timing but you can compensate for that by advancing base timing. If you have a knock sensor you can do that part without a knock detection device or on the dyno.

It's not as nice as having an EMS but it is a cheap way to be able to use what the cams give you. By being able to hold power into the higher revs you will have a faster, funner car.

CollapsedNut
02-21-2011, 07:14 PM
You can certainly get a little more power out of your mods by using the SAFC to get AFRs back in line with where the cams make power. However an even better idea would be to over-clock your ECU to increase your red line to match where the cams make torque and then use the SAFC to bring AFRs back where they should be. Depending on the cams, you may only have to over-clock 5-8%. You will likely have to add fuel across the board with the SAFC which will retard timing but you can compensate for that by advancing base timing. If you have a knock sensor you can do that part without a knock detection device or on the dyno.

It's not as nice as having an EMS but it is a cheap way to be able to use what the cams give you. By being able to hold power into the higher revs you will have a faster, funner car.

This is what I want.

CollapsedNut
02-21-2011, 08:24 PM
Any links or info on this "overclocking" process. I know it involves a crystal of some mHz thats about it.

Facime
02-21-2011, 09:24 PM
an SAFC on an NA with a stock fuel system is like buying Victoria Secret for a 48yo mother of 4, sure it looks good in the box, but the end result is still rather disapointing, and you will probably only end up fiddling with it once or twice anyway.

CollapsedNut
02-21-2011, 11:19 PM
an SAFC on an NA with a stock fuel system is like buying Victoria Secret for a 48yo mother of 4, sure it looks good in the box, but the end result is still rather disapointing, and you will probably only end up fiddling with it once or twice anyway.

Thats depressing!
I dont think Ill be able to look at a AFC the same again.

But wait theres more!
Are you saying I should upgrade the fuel system? Cause it sounds like your saying I should! PARTS ODERED NOW!
















J/k.... but seriously

Hookecho
02-22-2011, 12:33 AM
I used an SAFC2 on my 5sfe setup. It really made a difference. I also had cams too. Without having cams it's not really worth the money.

I still have the SAFC2 and may be willing to part with it.

rizin
02-22-2011, 01:17 AM
http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?34405-I-just-over-clocked-my-car!&highlight=overclocking This is the thread MrTuarri has about over clocking the 5s ecu. The boards will most likely look different for the 3sge. The process and the thinking will be the same for the 3sge ecu.

CollapsedNut
02-22-2011, 01:44 AM
TY for link rizin!
And as for you Hook.... you just limme now when you wanna let that go... as long as you dont want more than $100 for it

























maybe negotaible but no moe than $150

CollapsedNut
02-22-2011, 05:14 PM
And what about a knock senser? I know the 3sge doesnt have one, Ill search after work to see if there is a way to add it, but I would assume the ECU
wouldnt know what to do with it, so Id have to do something odd and probably very complicated.

Facime
02-22-2011, 08:25 PM
And what about a knock senser? I know the 3sge doesnt have one, Ill search after work to see if there is a way to add it, but I would assume the ECU
wouldnt know what to do with it, so Id have to do something odd and probably very complicated.

like, ohhh say...get a standalone.

CollapsedNut
02-22-2011, 08:30 PM
like, ohhh say...get a standalone.

:zxflipoff: I figured. Skrew that. Not worth it, well it is worth it, but
I cant afford one so Ill pretend like its not.

MrTurrari
02-22-2011, 11:35 PM
Even if you don't have a knock sensor it will work. Just tune it with your wideband to 13:1 AFR (I personally wouldn't go leaner then that on a piggyback) and leave timing stock. Then if you get the chance to take it to a dyno where they can listen for knock, you can advance the timing a few degrees to get another 5-10% more power. The more you over clock, the more it retards so only do it as much as you need to get your red line up the same amount the cams move torque to the right.

Hiko
02-23-2011, 04:11 AM
^Agreed. Real question here is, if you already have a wideband, why *not* just try it out? If it doesn't make much horsepower, sell it. Otherwise it could be relatively easy horsepower.

Also, I know it's not the same engine, but the 5sfe can pick up 9whp with an safc. The two different engines were tuned by the same people, though, so I'd bet some gains can still be made.

Ghost
02-23-2011, 05:37 AM
i would do it, complete the job and make everything run better and gain some ponnies. ( at a small cost)

CollapsedNut
02-24-2011, 12:33 AM
Kinda OT here but how much can be done on a cam regind?
Is there like a standard amount that can be takin from the base circle?
Anyone had a regrind and have an idea what I should tell the shop?

I really like these cams, but I cant afford them. Are these specs obtainable on a regrind?
Approx RPM Range: 3000-8000

Inlet Duration @ 0.30mm: 266
Exhaust Duration @ 0.30mm: 262

Inlet Duration @ 1.00mm: 226
Exhaust Duration @ 1.00mm: 220

Inlet Valve Lift @ 1 to 1: 8.75mm
Exhaust Valve Lift @ 1 to 1: 8.25mm

Inlet Centerline @ Full Lift: 110
Exhaust Centerline @ Full Lift: 110

Hookecho
02-24-2011, 12:47 AM
Call Geoff at Colt Cams and talk to him. He did the regrind on my 5sfe cams. He charged me $350 to do a mild grind on both cams.

http://www.coltcams.com/

CollapsedNut
02-24-2011, 12:54 AM
Damn I forgot that, you told me to call there a few weks ago lol. Will call tomorrow

CollapsedNut
02-24-2011, 10:56 PM
Geoff says he can do a 212@50 with 7.82 lift. $375
What does 212@50 mean in overall duration? Thats about 260 right?

Hookecho
02-25-2011, 02:24 AM
You'll have to ask him. It depends on how he grinds the lobe. If I had to guess I would say 252.

CollapsedNut
02-25-2011, 02:44 AM
It doesnt really matter, thats what he said would work best so I believe him. I may ask if he can go more "extreme"
and see what he thinks. I was at work so I couldnt chat long.

CollapsedNut
02-25-2011, 02:55 AM
Hey I just thought of something...
Nevermind, realized I was dumb half way thru typing this