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View Full Version : odd project for my AW11...



not12listen
01-08-2011, 06:06 PM
so, as many are aware, i am swapping a 3SGE (88 Celica GTS - USDM) into my AW11. last night, i was searching for some specific fuel lines and i stumbled upon a website that sells many different types, sizes, shapes, etc of intercoolers - air-to-air and air-to-water.

i've already done some searching, and everyone is saying the same thing - on an NA engine, there is no benefit to having an intercooler.

one thing i noticed on every one of those posts, and subsequent responses, is that they're all applying the same parts - an air-to-air intercooler.

and here is where my project takes a turn. i intend on installing an air-to-water intercooler on my NA setup.

realistically, i do NOT expect to see massive gains and nor is that the point of this. the point is consistency regardless of the weather. even if my engine only puts out 135hp at the crank, i want it to put down 135hp at the crank all year round.

this setup will have a 'barrel' style air-to-water intercooler (minimal loss of air velocity, etc), an independent electric water pump, a reservoir (purely for the A-t-W setup) and a heat exchanger.

again, the difference is that with A-t-A intercoolers, you are relying on the surround air to lower the temps of the intake charge - my setup will be more akin to the ST165 AllTrac setup where the intake charge is liquid cooled.

unlike the ST165, my intercooler will not be resting just above the engine and nor will it be connected to a super hot turbo.

my hope is that during the unpleasantly hot summer months, my intake charge will remain nice and cool... much cooler than the ambient air that the intake filter receives, thereby allowing me a more consistent powerband during all times of the year.

so yeah... that is my next 'mad scientist' project for my AW11. :)

Hiko
01-09-2011, 01:21 AM
and a heat exchanger


Here's the problem. The heat exchanger is a radiator with air flowing over it. How is the air going to get the water any cooler than itself? It can't. Using this setup will not yield any lower intake temperatures.

Unless your going to use a refrigerant, you can't usefully get an intake charge cooler than ambient.

not12listen
01-09-2011, 02:16 AM
well, even in summer time, when its really hot, if you're going 75mph and put your hand out of the window, your exposed skin will naturally dissipate heat due to the air passing over it effectively grabbing that heat and moving it away from the surface of your skin.

same basic idea here...

i do recall a friend of mine talking about using his a/c system to feed into his intercooler. i won't do that, but it is a neat idea. :)

Demz
01-09-2011, 02:24 AM
The problem with those intercoolers is that first word, "air". In your plans you are relying on the temperature of the air to do the cooling. As Hiko said, the air can't make anything cooler than the temperature that itself is. If you went through with this project, I'd suspect a small (if at all noticeable ) power loss due to restricting intake flow.

If you really wanted to lower intake temps you could have a compressor compress freon. When freon is compressed it raises its temperature. Then run it through a radiator to disperse the excess heat and into an expansion valve. It then decompresses and thus lower its temp to a temp that's lower than when it started. Sound familiar? Its how your a/c works. Problem is that even when you do that your STILL going to have a net power output of less than the stock set up due to frictional losses.

Sorry bud. Sometimes things never change because they are the best way to go about it.

Edit: Haha damn if I was faster at typing on this phone and not distracted by the tv I would've posted in time. Anyway about the hand out the window, your taking your hand ( about 98.6 degrees) and dispersing heat into the air (most likely less than 98.6). In your project you take ambient air (xx degrees) and trying to cool it by ramming more ambient air at it (also xx degrees). Your result would be air of he same temp and maybe a minuscule amount of heat added due to air friction. Not to mention the power loses due to aerodynamic drag and restricting air flow.

ChrisD
01-09-2011, 06:53 AM
Well I can see what you are going for. The engine bay temps are higher than the outside air, which would be the absolute coolest you could get it. However, I think your time money would be much better spent sorting out some really nice ducting and a proper air box to seal out engine bay air. You could definitely do some cool stuff with that, and it makes a lot more sense.

Aaron Willis
01-12-2011, 05:26 PM
And air temps inside an AW11 engine bay are very close to ambient when the car is moving.

In a way, you are talking about reinventing the wheel to solve a problem that you're not actually having.

My vote: skip it, and put your efforts into something that will be rewarded with results!

Luni
01-12-2011, 11:23 PM
Yeah, like putting a turbo in there that W2A IC can acutally use.

I honestly cant see you getting anything measurable out of this. Most NA cars Ive ever seen wont even "heat soak" in the summer months. My Celica is consistent as a mofo. Dont matter if its 100+ outside or 70 outside, it feels about the same.

I agree its most likely a waste of time and added complexity to an NA car.

To be honest, if you want to SAVE some of your complexity, youd be better off running water injection and a few degrees of additional timing to actually make a difference. It would be simpler, and cheaper, and take up much less real estate.

not12listen
01-13-2011, 04:17 AM
well, honestly, i want to thank everyone for their views and perspectives. i am putting this project on hold.

i will be doing more research as well, perhaps on other methods by which to lower the temps in the air going into the engine.

and no, i will not add a turbo to my Mr2, at any time in the foreseeable future. :)

Luni
01-13-2011, 06:13 PM
You really should look into water injection then. You could spray just a little bit of water and it would do more for your intake charge than a w2a ic would. Much less complex and way cheaper. Just my .02

not12listen
01-13-2011, 08:07 PM
chalk this up to my lack of knowledge about water injection, but isn't water one of the last things you want to put into your cylinders?

Aaron Willis
01-13-2011, 08:15 PM
...isn't water one of the last things you want to put into your cylinders?No, not at all. You're not serious, are you? Google this. Water injection has been in use since the 1930s or earlier to great effect.

There isn't enough time or space on this forum to crack this subject open. Seriously, do Google it. You can spend a week reading and not even begin to scratch the surface of what water injection can do.

not12listen
01-14-2011, 07:52 AM
did some reading on water/meth injection... VERY interesting idea. :)

sounds VERY simple to setup and get operational as well. and the blessing of the AW11? i could put the water/meth tank in the rear trunk, and there be almost no way to know it was even there, unless someone were to open the trunk. :)

i will have to give this idea some serious thought... thanks for passing along the idea. :)

btw - aaron, have you installed that braided steel clutch line yet? :)

Grot
01-14-2011, 07:57 AM
Also assuming your climate does not get terribly cold, you already have an injector you could use for the Water/Meth.

The stock Cold start injector housed in the intake manifold would probably work excellent for this purpose.

not12listen
01-14-2011, 08:09 AM
Also assuming your climate does not get terribly cold, you already have an injector you could use for the Water/Meth.

The stock Cold start injector housed in the intake manifold would probably work excellent for this purpose.

that sir, is staying to its original function. :) i had it cleaned/balanced at Witch Hunter Performance along with all of the other injectors a while back.

i was thinking of putting the water/meth injector into a specially drilled hole in the intake stream, just before the throttle body. my only real concern would be possible rust buildup on the throttle butterfly valve if i run straight water. but, i will not drill into my intake manifold... :)

mtp_69_i
01-14-2011, 10:22 AM
third-ing a water/methanol injection setup. Although, unless you're using a tunable ECU (ie to muck around with advancing the timing) I'm not sure how much extra power you'll get out of water injection either (correct me if I'm wrong here y'all). If you are using a tunable ECU, a nitrous system could also be a fun way to get a (short) boost of power while staying NA and fairly stock. If you're looking for an "odd" project for your 3sge that is.

not12listen
01-20-2011, 02:58 AM
posted in the wrong thread...