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moofmaw
01-07-2011, 06:41 AM
Hey guys just got a 92 gts, and I still have my old system from my 90 gt. What I have is the Pioneer DEH7400 headunit, rockford fosgate 301m punch amp 900 watt max, and two american pro bass machines subs that are 500 watt max I believe (its been a while since I've had a chance to look at them). What I would like to do is replace the stock speakers in the car with 2 Kenwood 6.5 inch speakers KFC-P709PS (comes with tweeters) and 2 Kenwood 4 inch speakers KFC-1093PS (I will include links to both sets of speakers at the end). My question is will I need another amp to power these new speakers and tweeters? Will the new tweeters work to replace the old ones? Or should I just be able to swap in the new speakers in place of the old ones and be good to go?

I do not know very much about car audio. I am looking to purchase the speakers from Best Buy so if anyone knows of anything else there that would work better than these I would appreciate the input!
Thanks!

Links:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Kenwood+-+4%22+3-Way+Car+Speakers+with+Polypropylene+Cones+(Pair)/9764171.p?id=1218169464062&skuId=9764171

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Kenwood+-+Kenwood+6-1/2%22+Component+Car+Speakers+with+Polypropylene+Con es+(Pair)/9764205.p?id=1218169463931&skuId=9764205

Car_Barn_Bandit
01-07-2011, 08:45 AM
This is Michael, I am going to just go over what you got and then we'll get into what you want to do.

Pioneer DEH7400 - 100 watt Headunit - 4x20w RMS

Rockford Fosgate 301m - 150w x 2 Amplifier @ 2ohms - 300w @ 4 ohms

American Pro Subwoofer x2 - unknown watts - likely 4 ohm

With that, you can run almost any combination of multi-way speakers (2x 4" and 2x 6.5"/6.25") that Best Buy has to offer. Your Pioneer headunit is capable of 20w a channel, with a peak of 25w. Ideally, to get the most bang for your buck, you want to find speakers that are closer to your headunit's output. Speakers with less RMS, you'll likely blow out and distort, speakers with more RMS, you'll be stuck with poor sound.

As long as your subwoofers are at 4ohms, you have the appropriate setup for that amplifier (I have a peeve about using amp for amplifier). Now I come from a school of thought in audio design where you get a much more powerful amplifier then what your speakers can handle, and just watch how far you go with the volume. I use a couple limiters on my setup to prevent the amplifier from reaching those levels. My advice would be to just look to match numbers so you have less to think about.

The Pioneer component speakers you have listed at Best Buy are a great way to go. I am using a similar component system, and being able to aim your treble where you want is really helpful. You get a much clearer sound and the tweeters come with a bass limiter so they sound better. At 80 watts, you'll either need to pair it with a 4 channel amplifier, or get a stronger headunit.

Do you have a particular goal for this setup? Do you have a budget in mind?

moofmaw
01-07-2011, 05:06 PM
Thank you Michael!

The way you explained things makes more sense to me now. I do not really have a particular goal in mind I just want it to sound really good. I looked at my subwoofers today and they are 600 watt max.

So are you saying that I should look at different speakers if I do not plan on purchasing another amplifier? Since the component speakers I was looking at have an RMS of 80 watts?

Thanks for your help man!

Car_Barn_Bandit
01-10-2011, 06:46 PM
Ok, there has been some PM banter, so I am bringing the conversation back to here to help.

I highly recommend that if you go the route of installing a second amplifier, to upgrade both your battery, alternator and engine wiring harness. I killed two batteries before I wised up and bought a Yellow Top Optima battery. I also got an upgraded alternator off of ebay to handle the higher amp load. Coupled with an overdrive pulley from Summit Racing, my amp puts out around 170-180amps needed for my system to run properly.

Capacitors are great for sudden drops in power when bass hits a peak and you need the quick reserve. I don't use one because my system never hits anywhere near the peak watts or power. If I were to have a couple subs in the trunk and was aiming to rattle windows, I would have a capacitor and a distribution block.

I might look into a bigger headunit for now like an Alpine, Kenwood or Sony that handles 4x50 watts and allows you to tweak your subwoofer amplifier and speaker amplifier in the future. I am using the Sony headunit with an HD radio receiver.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Alpine+-+50W+x+4+In-Dash+CD+Deck+with+Detachable+Faceplate/9438076.p?id=1218117978216&skuId=9438076

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Sony+-+52W+x+4+Apple%26%23174%3B+iPod%26%23174%3B-/Satellite+Radio-/HD+Radio-Ready+In-Dash+Deck/9914615.p?id=1218194155725&skuId=9914615

Then you could get the Kicker component speakers for the rear and have a pretty decent system on a good budget without all the other things you'd need to install for a second amplifier.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Kicker+-+DS+6-1/2%22+2-Way+Component+Speakers+with+Polypropylene+Cones+(P air)/9892233.p?id=1218190733465&skuId=9892233

moofmaw
01-11-2011, 12:51 AM
Thanks upgrading my head unit sounds like it would be the more cost effective way to go about it. That Sony head unit looks awesome I just watched the demo on it! I've never seen anything like that nor did I know they made something like that! I think the best route for me to go would be to upgrade my head unit with some new speakers in the front and back. I like the kickers you suggested they have a lower RMS that the head unit would be able to handle. Does anyone have an opinion on whether to go with JBL or Infinity 4" speakers for the front? These are the 2 that I am looking at:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/JBL+-+4%22+2-Way+Car+Speakers+with+Plus+One+HCL+Woofer+Cones+(P air)/1551096.p;jsessionid=1A44DB9F084F968231C1CFB2AC64A AD2.bbolsp-app03-02?id=1218268353625&skuId=1551096

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Infinity+-+Kappa+4%22+2-Way+Car+Speakers+with+Plus+One+Woofer+Cones+(Pair) +-+Silver/1434559.p?id=1218258639467&skuId=1434559

Thanks for your help Michael! It's much appreciated!

david in germany
01-11-2011, 07:07 AM
I just had a nice reply to this and lost it... I'm pissed..

Here is the clif notes version

Stay away from Components in the rear of the car, focus on the best speakers in the front you can fit/afford, Upgrade the (big 3) Power from the battery to the alternator, ground from battery to the engine, and ground from battery to the chassis) You don't need a cap, EVER. Yellow top will only be a benefit for listening times with the car off. If you listen with the car on the stock battery will be fine.

Don't worry about the deck having a higher RMS than the speaker, you can all ways add the proper passive filter for the speaker and bring the power up.

Ignore any rating that has the word "Max" in it. focus on RMS. Keep your grounds short and when adding a fuse inline, the fuse if to protect the car not the amplifier so NEVER fuse the cable higher than the cable can take amperage wise. 4 gauge cable will handle up to about 1500w RMS without an issue.

on a final note for now, I don't think those JBL's will fit in the front enclosures in your car without alot of modification, the motor is just too big.

Car_Barn_Bandit
01-11-2011, 07:17 PM
Stay away from Components in the rear of the car

The reason I typically recommend components in the rear is two-fold. You can do a better job limiting low frequency to the tweeters, making them sound better and you also raise them up toward a better listening level for a better sound experience inside the car.


Yellow top will only be a benefit for listening times with the car off. If you listen with the car on the stock battery will be fine.

Unless the alternator is putting out the amps needed, as most Celica's come with a 70 amp alternator, you will kill the battery. It's a simple math equation, and I have killed 2 batteries because I didn't get a deep cycle to handle my load. To be fair, my two amplifiers consume 100 amps between the two of them. That is why I got an alternator to output 180 amps.

With a new headunit and the amplifier you currently have, you are looking at a 40-50 amp draw. At night when you have about 20 amps dedicated to exterior lights, you may even be unable to charge the battery. I drove 4 hours one night with my music cranking to wake up the next morning with a dead battery. At the very least, upgrade the alternator, but I highly recommend a deep cycle battery like the Yellow Top.

david in germany
01-12-2011, 12:26 PM
The reason I typically recommend components in the rear is two-fold. You can do a better job limiting low frequency to the tweeters, making them sound better and you also raise them up toward a better listening level for a better sound experience inside the car.
Unless the alternator is putting out the amps needed, as most Celica's come with a 70 amp alternator, you will kill the battery. It's a simple math equation, and I have killed 2 batteries because I didn't get a deep cycle to handle my load. To be fair, my two amplifiers consume 100 amps between the two of them. That is why I got an alternator to output 180 amps.
With a new headunit and the amplifier you currently have, you are looking at a 40-50 amp draw. At night when you have about 20 amps dedicated to exterior lights, you may even be unable to charge the battery. I drove 4 hours one night with my music cranking to wake up the next morning with a dead battery. At the very least, upgrade the alternator, but I highly recommend a deep cycle battery like the Yellow Top.

Although we agree on many things the stock alternator/battery for normal listening is just fine. (this is not the case for you or I though) For me, I ran a yellow top and a 140a alternator. ;) For proper staging though, rear mounted highs will kill your sound stage. Think about going to a concert, would you ever sit backwards? rear mounted highs WILL over power the fronts especially in the spatially challenged Celica.

moofmaw
01-13-2011, 01:10 AM
Sorry guys I have been pretty busy lately to check the forum. So I'm pretty sure I am going to go get a new head unit. I really like that Sony you mentioned earlier Michael. As for finding speakers that fit in the front of the celica what measurements should I be looking for? I know that it is supposed to be 4" speakers. So I guess what I am getting at should I be looking for a 4" cut out or smaller? Also do you have any idea what the mounting depth is for the front speakers? How much does it cost to upgrade an alternator? Thanks guys for the replies!

Shadowlife25
01-17-2011, 12:40 AM
Although we agree on many things the stock alternator/battery for normal listening is just fine. (this is not the case for you or I though) For me, I ran a yellow top and a 140a alternator. ;) For proper staging though, rear mounted highs will kill your sound stage. Think about going to a concert, would you ever sit backwards? rear mounted highs WILL over power the fronts especially in the spatially challenged Celica.

I think this is the most difficult concept for many of these folks to get.
They are always told "more = better" and it is bullshit in this instance as in most things.
Max power ratings are garbage.
Always go with the RMS rating (Root Mean Square) as this will be your key for figuring out your needs.
Headroom is a great thing. Pushing to max power levels (Clipped signal) is trash, again.
It is ALL ABOUT BALANCE.
The rear stage simply destroys the balanced fields you can attain with a Front centered setup.
I do not even run the rear stage in my AllTrac and you know that NOT ONE person has noticed.
Again, balance and tuning.

If you want more simply to have more, that is your prerogative.
If you want to have a well balanced system that will exceed your expectations,
you would do well to listen to those who have been around the block a time or two.

Sorry for the mini rant.
Thank you David for always providing solid well reasoned advice sir.

Car_Barn_Bandit
01-17-2011, 01:12 AM
Just to be clear...

I don't split my frequencies in the back with components to get "more", it's for control, thus balance. Being able to fine tune the frequency on my mids in the rear to tune them toward low, and harder frequencies to spatially locate. Then I can run my tweeters off my headunit. This way I can choose to tune out the back while driving, or bring it up when I am parked, or working on the Celica. I do it for control and fine tuning. I always advocate control, over power.

rgoalie22
01-18-2011, 07:41 PM
so you run your ONLY your tweeters of your headunit power? what crossover are you using for them? or are you just using the crappy crossover thats built into the HU?
also, do not use a capacitor, those are only band-aids for the issue, like david in germany said, Big 3 upgrade and then alternator upgrade.

Car_Barn_Bandit
01-18-2011, 08:24 PM
On a personal note, I don't like sharing my cabin with a capacitor. There is a reason they need to be discharged...

Most components come with a good bass blocker that is part of the tweeter wiring. I wire them in and then I can adjust my fade and balance through the headunit. I then have tight control over my highs (headunit), mids (amplifier) and lows (sub amplifier). I will make a diagram for this.