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sloceli
01-02-2011, 07:09 AM
I致e decided I知 going to ditch the FMIC and use the 185 RC W2A once I知 back in the states. I want to discuss the different routing and the benefits of each. Right now I知 looking at two different options. The First is reservoir > IC > heat exchanger > pump > back to the reservoir. Second is Reservoir > pump > heat exchanger > IC > back to reservoir. I知 leaning towards the first option because I drag the car. It would allow for the most cooling in the short term. By adding ice to the reservoir I could possibly get sub ambient IAT痴. However the ice would last more than 1 run. Short term benefits are the best for drag applications. The second option would allow for close to ambient temps all the time. If I ever do make it out to the dragon then the second option would be the best for that. Either way the configuration could be changed rather quickly by swapping the hoses at the pump. Below are 2 highly detailed drawings of the of the flow routes for each setup up. Which do you think will be the best?

Option 1
http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/9/0/wta_drag.jpg
Option 2
http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/9/0/wta_daily.jpg

ChrisD
01-02-2011, 03:54 PM
I like option 2. It gives the hot water more time to cool off. Since the hot water has a greater differential to ambient than post HE water would, it would cool more in the reservoir. And it definintely doesn't mean you can't add ice - you still can. In a drag situation, I bet the ice would still last quite a while b/c the water would never get extremely hot in the first place.

How come you want to ditch the FMIC? Just like the idea of being able to use the ice in drag application?

JDM SNUKUMZ
01-02-2011, 04:12 PM
first option just wouldnt work at all,Basically you have the pump pumping water into the reservoir?.....

Basically on a WTA system you want the pump be the lowest point in the system,that way the pump wont burned up as well.Option 2 is how I have it setup on my MR2 and its a drag car and works extemely well.

Mafix
01-02-2011, 10:26 PM
well i can see why you don't like your FMIC if the picture in your sig is correct.
if you've already moved to making the rc intercooler work, which is fine, picture 1 is correct.

joe's gt
01-03-2011, 02:38 AM
The first option as previously mentioned doesn't seem possible to me. You would literally have to have the reservoir gravity draining into the IC and then the pump would just be pumping water back into the reservoir and not circulating the fluid which is its purpose.

sloceli
01-03-2011, 02:56 AM
Chris, i want a cleaner look and it's more efficient and probably more suited for my needs. As far as it feeding the pump feeding the reservoir is see everyones point. The pump needs to be moved to the outlet side. The only problem with option 1 is engine bay heat soak worming the reservior durring long drives. Once ice is added it will go striaght to the IC which will have the most positive effect in the short term.

joe's gt
01-03-2011, 04:42 AM
Option 1 imo is pointless because you are running the water through the intercooler before the heat exchanger. You are adding heat to the fluid through both the engine bay temps and the pump then pumping through the ic vs. option 2 where the water circulates through the intercooler right after the heat is exchanged which is exactly what you want. As for ice in the water, if you run the water through the heat exchanger first before the ic, you may actually be adding heat back into the fluid. So yeah, I like your idea of just switching hoses around for drag and driving.

Mafix
01-03-2011, 07:28 PM
i'm only saying whats right. you can do either way.
but lets think about this for a second...
you are supposed to cool down the hot ass liquid coming out of the intercooler, not heat up everything else then cool down the liquid. it works the exact same way as the waterpump for your car. as soon as the coolant leaves the engine is hits the radiator. then goes back to the pump.
if you are worried about heating up the overflow/res bottle then you honestly don't need to play with water cooling. especially if you chose #2

sloceli
01-04-2011, 03:58 AM
It's not the same as the engines cooling system, it's not set up to maintain a constant preset temp. Option 2 to would be the best for overall day to day use, cooling the flow before it goes to the IC. Option 2 sends the ice chilled water directly to the core resulting in greater cooling in the short term. Just like Joe said passing the chilled water through the heat exchanger before entering the IC could heat the water up. Yes it will still have some effect but I want the most out of it. What I'll probably end up doing is running some extra hose and install valves to change the flow path so I can do both.

joe's gt
01-04-2011, 06:21 AM
Valve set up would be quick and easy. I like it.:biggthumpup:

sloceli
01-04-2011, 11:11 AM
I've been racking my brain trying to think of a way to change the flow. Finally I decided to just cut the heat exchanger out of the picture all together. By putting two valves on the in put and output hoses I can skip the HE completely allowing the ice water to flow through just the pump IC and res. Obvioulyy this won't work for long periods of time but for a few minutes on the staging line and down the strip it should work just fine.
http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/9/0/wta_final.jpg

Mafix
01-04-2011, 03:46 PM
it's exactly like a normal cooling system, without the thermostat.
it's fine if you want to make an interheater out of your intercooler. since you obviously are not listening to experiance and expertise. let me break it down:
if you are running wta on the street, not my choice and not the better choice but to each his own, option 1 is 100% correct. option 2 is ass backwards and prone to heat soak.
you are talking about drag racing and chilling the water: drag racers don't use pumps, heat exchangers, the like. they freeze the whole damn core or have massive cores with removable tops. what you are thinking about won't work well and will barely last through the burn out.

but it's ok if you want to do it your way. i'll be the one laughing in the end when you are buying new parts because you detonated your pistons.

Mafix
01-04-2011, 03:58 PM
oh and just to prove my point i can quote corky bell all day on this.

Sang
01-04-2011, 04:25 PM
Neither of those diagrams are right.

The setup will work best with the pump after the reservoir as shown in picture two, but with the core before the HE as shown in picture one.

Mafix is correct...to a point. The HE is acting like a inter-heater for the water before it reaches the core if said water is at ambient or lower temp. This is exactly why people put ice in the res. before a drag pass, to cool down the water and that water will go directly to the core. If it goes to the HE first, it will essentially warm up the water more before it goes to the core.

Sang
01-04-2011, 04:39 PM
You are adding heat to the fluid through both the engine bay temps and the pump then pumping through the ic vs. option 2 where the water circulates through the intercooler right after the heat is exchanged which is exactly what you want.

Sounds like people should plan out where they install these parts a little better. The best anyone can ask for from their water in a A2W is ambient (without ice or any other method of extra cooling). If you place the tank in the bay...sure, it may take in some radiant heat, so you should install the tank elsewhere. Therefore the amount of heat absorbed is quite minimal, if not negligible at all from the couple feet of hose that is physically in the bay and the small amount of heat from the pump. But who ever said the pump has to be directly before the core? So long as the pump as at the lowest point and can draw water from the bottom of the res, it could very well go before the HE and tank.

Personally, i think you guys are over analyzing the situation based on two diagrams with the assumption that those diagrams are the only way to install it. I can assure...you can move stuff around people.

sloceli
01-04-2011, 05:10 PM
Well the point of this thread is to find the best way to run it. Sang what your saying makes sinse cool the water after it's heated up by the core and before it goes to the res. I didn't want to run ice water through the he but moving the he to the just before the res solves that problem.
http://www.celicatech.com/gallery/files/9/0/wta_1.jpg

Luni
01-04-2011, 06:02 PM
From what Ive read, regarding a good FMIC, you are adding a whole mess of complexity at the chance you MIGHT cool your intake charge off. Mafix, do the alltrac guys usually run A2W or just a big FMIC?

Mafix
01-04-2011, 06:24 PM
depends on what they do. all the drag racers use FMIC. the nostalgia guys use wta. rally goes either way. the alltrac peeps are a funny bunch for certain things.

ChrisD
01-04-2011, 09:30 PM
I still think one of the huge advantages the Celica people have over MR2 people is our ability to run monster FMIC's. Having tried 3 different WTA setups as well as FMIC's, my next step involves a giant high density FMIC.

Luni
01-04-2011, 09:59 PM
Thats kinda what I was getting at to Joel. It honestly seems like a good FMIC will outperform most W2As especially for the money and simplicity. Good FMIC with water injection should be all that is ever needed on a swapped halftrac like his.

sloceli
01-05-2011, 02:59 AM
It's going to be cheaper for me to use the W2A that I already have than it is to run the FMIC setup I want. If I stay with the FMIC I'm going to need new pipes and a new core. I've got the 1st gen side feed that I want to use. I'm running a crappy core with crappy pipes. If I do change the pipes I'll be going with aluminized pipes so I can weld them and get rid of those unshightly couplers and of corse I'll be clocking the turbo. All I need for the W2A is a HE res and hoses.

joe's gt
01-05-2011, 05:58 AM
Bottom line is, for street use you want the heat exchanger in the equation and for drag you don't. Sang's right in the sense that engine bay temps and the pump will add negligible warming of the fluid, so if the heat exchanger is before or after the intercooler, it won't make a noticeable difference.

Sang
01-05-2011, 08:01 PM
it won't make a noticeable difference.

^This.

Bottom line... Overanalyzing situations like these will do nothing but delay you from enjoying your car. Whether it be a FMIC (which honestly...makes the most sense for this chassis since any A2W stuff you have can be sold for profit) or a2w, power is going to made from tuning the timing map. Not by getting your intercooler to stay a few degrees cooler than the former, so long as the either setup stays under the knock threshold.

Mafix
01-05-2011, 11:53 PM
i really hate when guys suggest water injection. no offense luni. but water injection is a bandaid or an excuse.

interesting chris, i'm also switching from my low density core to a high density one. remember though, you'll get more lag and boost loss with the high density. ah the price of effeciency. after i get that done (which is nearly the last of my external mods), i'll be bending a shit ton of aluminum and making panels and air deflectors and such. should make it a bit better. we'll see.

ChrisD
01-06-2011, 01:23 AM
Haha, I've got water injection. I like having it. Allows me to run more timing and make more power.

That point about boost loss / pressure drop that the ebay types love to quote is funny to me - often it only serves to point out that it is a very low efficiency IC. Sure, a tad more drop, and maybe a tad more lag, but for significant improvement in cooling I'll take it. My brother's car has a similar IC to my new one, no lag noticeable on his car that's for sure. (162 w/3sgte)

In the end though I have run WTA for years, and it did serve me well for what I needed. But now, I have to slowly make myself some room to make some larger changes in the future.

sloceli
01-06-2011, 03:56 AM
My biggest bitch about my FMIC is the fact that I can’t run my underbody plastic's anymore and my radiator isn't getting the airflow that it needs. That and the fact that my core sucks and I hate the way the pipes look. If I get a new core and somehow get the plastic's to work than that's fine as I would much rather run the side feed manifold. As for water injection I love it and it's staying. With WI and my J&S the chances of me grenading my engine are slim to none.

temperacerguy
01-09-2011, 03:48 PM
Here's the way it should run....

Depending upon your usage, there are two ways to run the setup. There are only small differences between the two.

For Drag racing, where you will be placing ice in the resevoir:

resevoir---->pump (mounted lowest in the system)--->Intercooler core---->heat exchanger----->resevoir.

This ensures that the coldest possible water is getting to the intercooler core. Oh, and don't remove the heat exchanger from the system when you use Ice water... you will want it to wick away the heat put into the coolant when it goes through the intercooler core.

For everyday use, or road racing:
resevoir--->pump(mounted lowest in the system)---->heat exchanger---->intercooler core---->resevoir.

I have built many a W2A IC systems in all sorts of setups.... and the one I am designing/building for my AT now will ensure that the charge air is ALWAYS below ambient. (well, except for the few seconds after the engine starts up...) but that's for a project buildup post in the near future.

ChrisD
01-09-2011, 06:45 PM
My biggest bitch about my FMIC is the fact that I can’t run my underbody plastic's anymore and my radiator isn't getting the airflow that it needs. That and the fact that my core sucks and I hate the way the pipes look. If I get a new core and somehow get the plastic's to work than that's fine as I would much rather run the side feed manifold. As for water injection I love it and it's staying. With WI and my J&S the chances of me grenading my engine are slim to none.

Nothing wrong with that reasoning. The good thing about IC's is that they are so easy to experiment with and try new things. I'm on my 4th IC setup. With WTA there's a lot of different things to play with. Just keep in mind the heat exchanger may also block some airflow depending on how it's set up.

vip09
01-10-2011, 01:02 AM
Get a more efficient turbo than a CT26 and the FMIC will be fine. Just clock the turbo and get the pipes away from the damn exhaust manifold. You are thinking way too deep into this.

sloceli
01-10-2011, 06:09 AM
I dont' have a 26, I'm running a 20b. If I do stay with the FMIC the turbo will get clocked. Like I said earlier my main bitch is I cant run the plastics which is effecting my cooling. Tenitive plans at the moment are RC hood, keep the FMIC, get the plastics to work, and the side feed manifold. If that keeps my water temps in check then I'll be okay with that setup. The W2A will go into the Alltrac after I replace the engine.

vip09
01-10-2011, 06:03 PM
So you are having cooling issues? I had a big FMIC on my Alltrac and never had cooling issues. I had no underbody plastics and no RC hood. I also still had a/c. And that was in summer heat down here and a dragon trip.

sloceli
01-10-2011, 06:36 PM
Yeah i do have cooling issues but only when it's above 75-80*. HG is fine, newer radiator, compression test is good. I don't know what it is but when its hot outside she will overheat unless the heater is on. I've got a new water pump so when I put my cams in I'll change it out, hopefully that will help.

ChrisD
01-10-2011, 06:43 PM
Could go with a TRD thermostat too. Some seem to do alright with FMIC's, others not as good.

sloceli
01-10-2011, 06:57 PM
My radiator and Tstat are fairly new, changed them out because of the overheating issues and it didn't help. Maybe some new fans would help. It's so temperate in WA that I don't have to worry about it but as soon as I go anywhere else she starts acting funny. I'm going to get an all aluminum radiator when I get back to the states and figure out a way to get the plastic to fit.

v8killer
01-11-2011, 08:15 PM
some fast drag cars do use a WTA and they use coolant and ice in the res. yes the pump has to be low the HE needs to have a large surface area to avoid heatsoak the core works best when the cold fluid comes from the rear to the front. i gots an rc core for sale btw sorry for the sales pitch.

vip09
01-12-2011, 07:17 PM
Well on my Alltrac I was running an n/a celica radiator for a 5s-fe and a single 11" spal fan if that means anything. Hope you get your issues resolved.

v8killer
01-14-2011, 08:04 PM
that would qualify as a properly sized heat exchanger :D i really just prefer WTA. for the most part if you have good fluid flow and a large HE you can have it work awesomely under any condition even roadrace or autoX assuming a good core the HE needs not be thick at all either. but if weight is a concern and you dont care that it needs to be moving through air to work then ATA is a good option. as long as the ic is big enough.