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View Full Version : So how rare are All Tracs really?



90ToyAllTrac
12-29-2010, 04:57 PM
When I was looking All I could find were st185s in the south east and couple on far side of minnasoater. Prices varying wildly. And here and on AT.net there seem to be regular ops to buy them, but again, usually st185s. Wiki says that no st205's were shipped to US. Dont know if thats true or not. And what about these CS editions? Real ones? I think i saw an st205 on ebay once for like $16k. Its on my dream car list but i doubt i would ever find one when Im disposed to buy.

Everyone is in off topic right now, im just bored posting.

Eric Barrera
12-29-2010, 05:16 PM
Honestly, i think it depends on wear you live. I think more of the all trac population is in the east coast, because I have seen 10 all tracs in 5 years so yea.

90blacktrac
12-29-2010, 05:24 PM
Not rare at all, hell I've got 3 of them(st185's)! But i think the total for 5th gens is like 1800.

Murgatroy
12-29-2010, 05:29 PM
No ST205s were shipped to the US by the factory.

None.

No CS/RC/Group A ST185s were shipped to the US by the factory.

None.

The only way to get one here in the US is a grey import, and even those are difficult and rather expensive.

ChrisD
12-29-2010, 05:44 PM
About 2500 ST185's were shipped to North America originally.

JDM SNUKUMZ
12-29-2010, 06:02 PM
in the ten years I been in fl I have only seen 3 real all tracs

90ToyAllTrac
12-29-2010, 07:01 PM
I heard a rumor that toyota might get back into rally. That would be awsome if they styled a new 8th gen, retroish, and brought back the All Trac/GT4. If i had a steady job at the time Id put in an order for one.

CollapsedNut
12-29-2010, 07:37 PM
Toyota wouldnt. If they did it would have a Scion badge

GT4OMAR
12-29-2010, 08:07 PM
The Carlos Sainz (CS) was only made available in Europe , it was badged differently in japan as an RC and Australia as a Grp A rallye they and benifited from a watercooled intercooler ,better turbo etc.
In the U.K just now you can buy a CS or RC for around 2K , the same is true of the St205.... becoming very cheap - however to get a nice one you would be looking at more like 3-4K you can also buy a standard st185 for well under 1k although the cost of shipping would probably make it quite expensive to get it abroad.
I would have to say that compared with subaru's & evo's they are quite rare but luckily for us in the UK we have a decent selection of domestic and import cars to choose from.
Anyone know why the ST205 didnt make it to the US - I ve always wondered why?

Facime
12-29-2010, 08:13 PM
Im just curious, whats the numbers on the ST165?

ChrisD
12-29-2010, 08:25 PM
A hair over 10,000 produced worldwide from 86-89.

90ToyAllTrac
12-29-2010, 09:31 PM
That shows the sad truth that rally, historically, just isnt big in america. Mind numming cars in a circle is all that flies. They couldnt even help it much with the x games, it was just showcased as, hey its like freestyle motorcycle jumping only its cars and they cant do backflips so its more boring. So youve got great opportunities to own awsome cars overseas but can you really enjoy driving them? i live in a medium sized city with lots of wide 2 lane streets and industrial low use back streets to tear up, but my guess is in say europe you have to get out on country roads to have any fun. Unless you have access to the autobahn.

Facime
12-29-2010, 09:43 PM
A hair over 10,000 produced worldwide from 86-89.

any idea what the numbers shipped to the US was?

ChrisD
12-29-2010, 10:23 PM
Unfortunately I've never seen that stat.

Facime
12-29-2010, 10:34 PM
yeah I looked to and didnt see anything. There just seems to be more information on the 185

90blacktrac
12-29-2010, 10:43 PM
ST185 US Sales:
Year----Units
1990----803
1991----591
1992----271
1993----81
Total 1,746

26,000 include GT-fours which were sold outside US.


Now this was posted by Gary at at.net, I have yet to find the true st165 number but I am looking seems the total production number ranges from 9,000 to 26,500??


See also http://www.celica.dds.nl/en/celihist.htm, still no 4th gen info here but neat to read regardless.

90blacktrac
12-29-2010, 10:51 PM
I suppose the ongoing lowest usdm st165 vin number competition at at.net is the only way we will every know.

ChrisD
12-29-2010, 10:59 PM
Nope - the VIN's are spread around the world. There's no way to tell destination country just by having the VIN/production #.

darthripley
12-29-2010, 11:30 PM
the only real numbers i've seen regarding the ST165 are as follows:
The ST165 was released in October 1986 in Japan. The first 2274 cars produced were for the Japanese market only.
These differ from later models as they have the center locking diff & other interior & exterior visual differences.
Production ended in Sept. 1989 .. but again, no solid numbers on how many were imported to the US/North America.
I've read somewhere around 2000 units were imported from 88-89 to the US but nothing factual to back it up.
For whatever reason not a ton of info regarding the ST165 numbers, but tons regarding the ST185.

The Captain
12-30-2010, 03:58 AM
Anyone know why the ST205 didnt make it to the US - I ve always wondered why?
Simple math. Americans wouldn't pay $45k for a state of the art sports car based on a $16k base car. At the time they'd pay $50k for a huge SUV body on frame designed in the 70's. If they never bought the 6th gen to the US as an ST cheapo model and only offered it as the GT4 it may have had a chance.


But to answer the original question, if you're looking for a clean, rust free, well cared for example of an ST185, it is a very rare car. The oldest ones are 20 years old now.

temperacerguy
01-07-2011, 06:49 AM
Simple math. Americans wouldn't pay $45k for a state of the art sports car based on a $16k base car.

But the Impreza/WRX and Lancer/Evolution have quite a following and profit making ability for Scobie and Mitsu.

Facime
01-07-2011, 07:20 AM
Thats true. I believe the real reason was that the hand-writing was already on the wall that toyota was pulling out of WRC and scaling back any kind of true sports car branding in favor of what they ultimately became in the US...the Camry Motor Corp :facepalm:

ChrisD
01-07-2011, 04:24 PM
They can make profit *today*...but there were a lot of years, especially in the 90's, where Subaru wasn't the best of brands on America. Mitsubishi didn't even become a standard brand in Canada until a few years ago.

People always compared them to the DSM counterparts here, which, were extremely cheap and very similar in performance on paper.

90ToyAllTrac
01-07-2011, 06:47 PM
Maybe Ill hold on to my old engine and build it someday then.

trialsmaster2
01-07-2011, 08:20 PM
the only real numbers i've seen regarding the ST165 are as follows:
The ST165 was released in October 1986 in Japan. The first 2274 cars produced were for the Japanese market only.
These differ from later models as they have the center locking diff & other interior & exterior visual differences.

Sweet, I didn't know how many ST165's had the center locking diff and whatnot. Mine is #2182 and has a few different things, including the center locking diff :)

Nitro_Alltrac
01-08-2011, 03:37 AM
But the Impreza/WRX and Lancer/Evolution have quite a following and profit making ability for Scobie and Mitsu.

They're making money now but you have to look at the All Trac price in context of the time they were new. The sticker on mine was like $26K new in 1992 (I've got the actual number on my other computer). When you look at what else you could by for that kind of money in 92 you were almost in Corvette territory and such. The problem was Toyota loaded them up will all the luxury and power options. If they had decontented them and sold them some what cheaper they would have moved more. At the time, people didn't know what they were and wouldn't put out that kind of coin.

One thing that has really helped the WRX and the EVO are the Playstation/Xbox games like Gran Turismo. So many people were aware of these cars before they ever hit the US market. There was pent up demand for them before they went on sale. If there had been this kind of awareness of the All Trac/GT4 back in the early 90's, they probably would have sold a lot better. Damn shame. I love mine.

The Captain
01-08-2011, 04:16 AM
I have the original window sticker for my car. It was $27,195. Well beyond the $35K a Subie or a Mitsu costs today. Another cost pressure was the Supra Turbo. It was only $1k more than "the hopped up Celica". The Supra (of that vintage) was never offered as a 1.8 liter stripped down econobox for $10k. If it was, nobody would plunk down 30 large for the Turbo model. It's image. Plus, most Americans can't drive except in a straight line (NASCAR being the exception with left turns) so the Supra was more appealing for the money.

The very stigma is still true today. I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to people that Princess isn't just a riced up Celica.

mtp_69_i
01-17-2011, 10:38 AM
One thing that has really helped the WRX and the EVO are the Playstation/Xbox games like Gran Turismo. So many people were aware of these cars before they ever hit the US market. There was pent up demand for them before they went on sale. If there had been this kind of awareness of the All Trac/GT4 back in the early 90's, they probably would have sold a lot better. Damn shame. I love mine.

Totally agree, although that arcade game Sega Rally featured the GT4 (AllTrac) didn't it? Toyota were possibly just a bit too early to capitalise on console video game marketing. Movies like Fast and Furious really pumped up the excitement around JDM vehicles in the US also.

Facime
01-17-2011, 05:51 PM
Movies like Fast and Furious really ruined JDM vehicles in the US also.

FTFY

cms-gt4
01-17-2011, 06:16 PM
I posted an article a while back that said the st185 alltrac was dead before ever launched.
They loved it, but they claimed being more expensive than a DSM and just a hair slower was part of the fault. They also mentioned you can buy their flagship supra for close to the same price among other sports cars.
Its just too hard to justify to the American public. The alltrac is a much nicer car than many of its counterparts. If you sat in a mint one with grey interior it is a nice car, with great sound and features. Those features however are unnecessary. If they sold a base model, with out the system 10, nice leather, alarm, sunroof etc.. They might have kept the price down to compete and also had a slightly better performance car since those features add a fair bit of weight. Too many people were price shopping with all the numbers on paper and honestly did not go for the better car. The quality put into the alltrac vs a lot of the competition was substantial. However if toyota did do that, the alltrac might not be the rare beauty it is today.

90all-trac
01-17-2011, 06:25 PM
I posted an article a while back that said the st185 alltrac was dead before ever launched.
They loved it, but they claimed being more expensive than a DSM and just a hair slower was part of the fault. They also mentioned you can buy their flagship supra for close to the same price among other sports cars.
Its just too hard to justify to the American public. The alltrac is a much nicer car than many of its counterparts. If you sat in a mint one with grey interior it is a nice car, with great sound and features. Those features however are unnecessary. If they sold a base model, with out the system 10, nice leather, alarm, sunroof etc.. They might have kept the price down to compete and also had a slightly better performance car since those features add a fair bit of weight. Too many people were price shopping with all the numbers on paper and honestly did not go for the better car. The quality put into the alltrac vs a lot of the competition was substantial. However if toyota did do that, the alltrac might not be the rare beauty it is today.

The reason i got my All-trac is because of the RARE factor! Iwas so sick of everyone and their damn built Hondas DSM's and rx-7's. I wanted a different car that not everyone has seen before (it deff worked picking the all-trac) it turns heads everywhere i go!!!

90ToyAllTrac
01-17-2011, 06:40 PM
My car is a total sleeper because I dont have rims on it. But 5th and 6th gen hatchbacks are totally non existant here and with the carbon hood w scoop it gets looks from ricers, but everyone else ignores it. Its friggin awsome to totally smoke some jerk with a brand new sports car at a intersection, left hand turn. Being almost a block away by the time the finish the turn. Straight away speed is nice but AWD turbo is the ultimate secret weapon. Being able to go that fast in a turn and knowing they are saying, "how the FK did he do that?!?!"