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temperacerguy
12-02-2010, 08:06 PM
OK, I am not going to name names, or point fingers. But I want some advise.

I recently purchased some interior pannels. Light, but very bulky. I paid a fair price (over $100) for these in good shape.

When they arrived, they were damaged. Not damaged by transit, they were shipped in this condition. They were structurally, and cosmetically damaged. a normal person looking at these would see the damage, this was not something found scrutinizing them. They are unusable to me.

So. Here's the question;

Should it be my responsibility to pay to ship these back to the seller? The seller does not want to refund my money until I pay to return the items.

I don't believe it should have to pay as the damage was not disclosed prior to the sale. In my mind it's as if he sent me a box of garbage, and won't give me my money back till I pay (a significant sum) to ship his garbage back.

The whole transaction was $125. To return ship this to the seller, it would cost $27.

So basically, the seller wants me to incur a $27 penalty for him shipping me his garbage.

What do you think is fair?

Should the seller pay the return shipping costs?
Should I have to pay the return shipping costs?

4thgenceli
12-02-2010, 08:23 PM
Was this from a transaction done here on the site?

Feel free to PM me details.

Hookecho
12-02-2010, 10:03 PM
Do me a favor and PM 4thgenceli some pictures of these damage panels.

temperacerguy
12-03-2010, 12:15 AM
sent pictures to 4th gen.

VikingJZ
12-03-2010, 06:30 AM
This is in regards to the door panels I sent him. You don't have to hide my name on here or not "name names".

These, to me, were in good shape for being from a car that is 20 years old. They mounted to the door just fine with no issues as well. Austin also did not like that one of the red reflectors was not with the panels. These can be transfered from another door panel and are not part of the door panel itself. One DID have them. I also included the power window buttons.


Austin contacted me and asked what he wanted me to do. Without hesitation or seeing pictures, I sent back $40 figuring that he could use them anyway.

That was not enough.


He demanded that I immediately issue a full refund of the remaining $85, or knock $30 off if he could keep the speaker enclosures. I do not recall in our contacts if he actually specified that he was indeed keeping them.

This demand was also requested with me having UPS come pick the package up from his house next week when he got back from a trip. This upcoming Wednesday I believe.

I was told that if I did not comply, he would open a PayPal dispute.

I informed him I was going to conduct this situation in accordance with PayPal policies, especially if he were to file a dispute, which he has the right to do.

Before replying in our last round of emails, I called PayPal on the phone and asked what their policy is for this situation.

The representative informed me that in the case of a dispute:

1.) The BUYER is to send the package back to the seller at the BUYER'S expense in the same fashion as received. This is something that PayPal wishes to see, as they will not take money from a seller if they don't see that the buyer has sent back a package. This can be accomplished by posting a tracking number into the PayPal dispute console.

2.) Once the SELLER receives the package, THEN a refund can be processed.


This can be checked by anyone interested by calling PayPal, or middling around their website if you so choose. I preferred talking to someone voice to voice.


Since Austin has opened a PayPal claim against me, they will have to review this information. According the representative I spoke to, he will ultimately have to ship these back to me and then I can refund the money to him.

I think I have been fair this entire time. I apologize that the panels were apparently not in as good of shape as needed. I should have posted or emailed pictures first.

However, I am following the rules by the company by which the purchase was paid for. If this is how PayPal wishes for refunds or returns to be handled, then that is how I will follow.

Galcobar
12-03-2010, 09:07 AM
Lesson for all -- comprehensive pictures.

temperacerguy
12-03-2010, 11:52 PM
Yeah, I didn't even mention the lack of reflector in my E-mail to you... Here's my PM to 4thgenceli...


OK, here are the pictures of the door cards, as requested by another moderator. Now, a few of these on their own would be fine, like the crushed mount point, and the drip guard pulling away from the passenger side, but all of the little minor issues, in combination with the horrid condition of the driver's side pannel make these cards completely worthless.

Here's the drip guard pulling away from the front of the card of the passenger side, Minor issue, but still an issue:
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/temperacerguy/CIMG0046.jpg

Here's the back of the passenger side:
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/temperacerguy/CIMG0045.jpg

Here's the drip guard completely pulled away from the driver's side door card. It's only atached by the vinyl glued to it.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/temperacerguy/CIMG0041.jpg


Here's the back side of the driver's side door:
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/temperacerguy/CIMG0042.jpg

Here's the inside of the same door. The card is completely split apart near the reflector. The two factory screw points have been torn out, and it looks like someone re-drilled two other screw points.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/temperacerguy/CIMG0039.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/temperacerguy/CIMG0040.jpg

Here's the tear in the driver's side arm rest.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/temperacerguy/CIMG0044.jpg

Here's the crushed mount point in the passenger side door (minor, but still an issue)
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff73/temperacerguy/CIMG0047.jpg

temperacerguy
12-04-2010, 12:09 AM
When the pannels arrived, I contacted the seller and stated that I was underwhelmed with the condition of the pannels. I then listed off everything that was wrong with the panels and offered to send pictures if he wanted or needed. I then asked him what he wanted to do about the situation.

He then unprompted sent $40 to me with a "sorry" note... well $40 isn't going to cut it... I stated that to him and said that the pannels were unusable. I then said that he could have UPS pick them up, and that I'd like a full refund. I did give him the option to sell me the speaker mounts, and asked him what he wanted to do.

His response was that he needed to treat this like he was a business, and that he couldn't refund till he got the items and that I would have to pay to ship them back.
I responded that a business would send a RMA# and UPS return label.
He said basically that if I wanted a refund that I would have to pay to have them shipped back and that paypal was on his side and that was all he was willing to do.

These pannels are not in a usable condition to me, and look like they were carelessly pulled from a junkyard car. There was no damage disclosed to me, and for the price paid, they should be in at least a "good" condition... having the pannels in this shape is not "good" as there is not only cosmetic, but structural damage.

Oh, and as for the switches... there were not any on the pannels, I havn't seen any (they may still be in the box), but this is the first I have heard of them. I didn't ask for them, or need them.

Facime
12-04-2010, 01:29 AM
IMHO, those door cards are unacceptable based on the price paid, and the seller should pay for return shipping if he wants them back.

There is nothing worse than spending your good hard earned money on something then having it cost you money to end up with nothing. This is essentially what VikingJZ is asking Austin to do, spend money to get nothing. Regardless of what paypal expects in regards to shipping the items back that is just unacceptable. If Austin ships the cards back then Viking is able to resell them again, albiet with a slightly tarnished condition attributed to them. That should more than make up for the cost of paying for the return shipping out of pocket.

The right thing to do is let Austin off the hook and not end up out of pocket for something he cant use, and as a seller that has a 100% ebay rating, thats what I would do in this situation.


There is one other option that I have done in the past to make sure I have both a happy buyer and not lose so much myself on a sale. Viking could refund the full amount in good faith, then advertise the cards for sale while they remain in Austin's possession. Once someone buys them (and pays for shipping) Austin could then ship them to the new buyer. This requires good faith gestures on all 3 parties parts, but the extra cost of shipping them back is saved and everyone gets out with minimal loss.

KM
12-04-2010, 02:31 AM
I'm going to reply to this, being as unbiased as possible. This is my opinion alone, and is not a reflection of the staff of CelicaTech.com

VikingJZ should have included pictures in his for sale thread. This is a forum rule. It is mandatory.
temperacerguy should have asked for pictures to verify that the items were in good condition.

VikingJZ shipped the items out as per the agreement.
temperacerguy, as the buyer, is responsible for return shipping. This is the rule on every website; eBay, Amazon, etc. Buyer pays return shipping. Paypal will not close the dispute and refund money as long as you still have the item. When you ship it back, you must include a shipping number to them, which is provided for free by UPS/FedEx/etc. They have this policy for a reason: to keep people from ordering an item, getting it, and requesting money back... most of the time to get the item for free.

The best way I see this being resolved is for temperacerguy to pay return shipping to ship the entire package to VikingJZ. Then VikingJZ will need to refund 100% of the money.
When this is done, you two may go your own way and use the iTrader rating system as seen fit.

Is that 100% fair? No, but that's how buying on the internet works.

I personally had a similar experience buying a part Wednesday, where it didn't fit. I only got $30 out of the $50 I spent back, but it was my fault for not making 100% certain that it was the right part in the condition I needed.

Facime
12-04-2010, 03:53 AM
That may be how the auction sites work but its not how ALL sites work. RockAuto for example will either not even ask for the part back or will send a label for it. On another occasion an ebay seller sent the wrong item to me (the box was mislabeled) and they simply asked for pictures to verify my complaint and when I provided it, they sent a label for return shipping included in a box with a replacement for the item I actually ordered. I have bought from several online retailers that will simply send a shipping label for the return of the item...IF, they are the kind of business that wants you to come back. so I dont buy the "that's how buying on the internet works" argument.

Additionally, since neither of the parties here are "retailers" it comes down to what THEY agree on, not what anyone else does or says is right.



Personally, Ive been burned enough times that I wont buy cosmetic items without seeing them, so I do agree that Austin made a mistake. A $27 mistake? thats up to him.

There is still every opportunity here for everyone to do the right thing. I hope they work it out to both parties satisfaction.

Ghost
12-04-2010, 04:52 AM
I'm going to reply to this, being as unbiased as possible. This is my opinion alone, and is not a reflection of the staff of CelicaTech.com

VikingJZ should have included pictures in his for sale thread. This is a forum rule. It is mandatory.
temperacerguy should have asked for pictures to verify that the items were in good condition.

VikingJZ shipped the items out as per the agreement.
temperacerguy, as the buyer, is responsible for return shipping. This is the rule on every website; eBay, Amazon, etc. Buyer pays return shipping. Paypal will not close the dispute and refund money as long as you still have the item. When you ship it back, you must include a shipping number to them, which is provided for free by UPS/FedEx/etc. They have this policy for a reason: to keep people from ordering an item, getting it, and requesting money back... most of the time to get the item for free.

The best way I see this being resolved is for temperacerguy to pay return shipping to ship the entire package to VikingJZ. Then VikingJZ will need to refund 100% of the money.
When this is done, you two may go your own way and use the iTrader rating system as seen fit.

Is that 100% fair? No, but that's how buying on the internet works.

I personally had a similar experience buying a part Wednesday, where it didn't fit. I only got $30 out of the $50 I spent back, but it was my fault for not making 100% certain that it was the right part in the condition I needed.

this is how it should be handled since it was done by paypal.

MCcelica
12-04-2010, 07:36 AM
KMs post is gospel to me. Temperacerguy. Just pay to ship them back. The 27 bones. Aaron. Once you get them, issue a refund to INCLUDE the additional $27. If you really want to run that transaction like a business, then you will take the hit. Any business that's halfway decent at customer service would. Reason for this is also because KM is right again. It is a rule that you need to post pictures of the items you are selling. Nothing personal against anyone. Just the way it is. All INVOLVED parties roger up and lets get this handled like adults. And also keep progress posted.

Thank you.

temperacerguy
12-04-2010, 02:39 PM
KMs post is gospel to me. Temperacerguy. Just pay to ship them back. The 27 bones. Aaron. Once you get them, issue a refund to INCLUDE the additional $27. If you really want to run that transaction like a business, then you will take the hit. Any business that's halfway decent at customer service would. Reason for this is also because KM is right again. It is a rule that you need to post pictures of the items you are selling. Nothing personal against anyone. Just the way it is. All INVOLVED parties roger up and lets get this handled like adults. And also keep progress posted.

Thank you.

I am fine and agree with this solution. Do you agree with this VikingJZ? If so, do you want me to send back the speaker mounts, or would you like to sell those to me for $30. That is your call.

VikingJZ
12-04-2010, 03:17 PM
First, I want to correct that no I did NOT send him the power window switches. That was a typo on my behalf. What I meant was I sent him the window switch bezels.

As far as the transaction, yes I am okay with that. This is why I suggested it in the first place. And yes, that's completely fine if you keep the speaker enclosures. However, I think if you keep the PayPal dispute open you have to send everything back because they are going to require that I send you the entire $85 back. I'm not sure on this, so I will call after work to verify for us. Its your choice whether you want to keep the dispute open and I will work with you either way, but if you're going to ship it back, its kind of pointless in my opinion.

So, go ahead and get them back when you get home and I'll take care of you.

Facime
12-04-2010, 06:50 PM
Paypal encourages you to settle a dispute outside of their investigation, so in this case, its possible for Austin to keep the speaker mounts, send the rest back, get a partial refund from VikingJZ and then have both parties mark the case resolved (Austin has to initiate the process of resolution since he brought the claim).

I would like to add here that you have 45 days from the day that you recieve an item to file a dispute with paypal and its really in your interest to use that time to try to settle things on your own. Im glad to see this is being worked out.

Nitro_Alltrac
12-04-2010, 11:05 PM
I'm with Facime. Glad to see this is working out.

temperacerguy
12-05-2010, 01:45 AM
KMs post is gospel to me. Temperacerguy. Just pay to ship them back. The 27 bones. Aaron. Once you get them, issue a refund to INCLUDE the additional $27.

As far as the transaction, yes I am okay with that. This is why I suggested it in the first place.

That's not what I got out of it.... From what you said, you were only going to refund the origional total of $125, not $125+27.

If you are ok refunding me an additional $112 (The remaining $85+$27 for return shipping ) then all is good with me. If you would like to refund only $82 (so I can keep the speaker mounts) then that is good with me as well. Which would you like?

For me to send the door pannels back alone, and once you get them, refund me the $82
For me to send the door pannels back with the speaker mounts, and once you get them, refund me the $112

Let me know, and once I get back to FL (on tuesday), I will take care of that.

temperacerguy
12-06-2010, 11:25 PM
OK, I am back in FL. Just waiting to hear which option you chose, and what I should do.

VikingJZ
12-07-2010, 04:07 AM
Sorry, I have been busy.

I'm sorry error in communication about this, but I am not paying for shipping back. I am doing it exactly as PayPal will request of you over the course of the dispute. At our store, if we send something back to a supplier, we pay shipping out of pocket. This is how I have chosen to do this. Like KM said, you can use the rating system as you wish, but I feel I have been fair the entire time in handling this.

Here are your options:

1.) Return the panels and the speaker enclosures together. Upon receiving them, I will refund $85.

2.) Return the panels and keep the enclosures. Upon receiving them, I will refund $55.


Let me know what you decide to do. I will be entering the same information into the PayPal dispute console momentarily since it is still open.

temperacerguy
12-07-2010, 04:46 AM
so, what you're saying:

Is that you're fine that you didn't follow the forum rules for sales
And that I have to pay out of my pocket to send you back your damaged and worthless item
That basically, I have to PAY to get nothing because of your poor sales techniques, where no damage was disclosed.
and this is how you would "treat this as would a business" as you stated in your E-mail.

I just want to make sure that I have this correct.

MCcelica
12-07-2010, 09:19 AM
That's what I'm getting out of it too. And Aaron. I understand that you're trying to do things as PayPal's rules go. But we have different rules here that don't apply to PayPal. Some of which are rules of decency. Go through with it how you feel. Just know that if you decide to not do as KM and I have instructed you, there will be consequences here. Take that as you will.

gopher_6_9
12-07-2010, 01:45 PM
If my 2 cents as a fellow member with no atachment or bias towards EITHER of the parties is concerned:

1. You where both wrong to a point. You both bought and sold not using pictures. REMEMBER GUYS MY GOOD AND YOUR GOOD MAY BE 2 COMPLETLY DIFFERANT THINGS. Where is the original post, and does it claim they are perfect? Or simply in good shape for there age?

2. I agree, if pictures had been sent, and the items not as described then You would be owed a FULL REFUND INCLUDING THE SHIPPING. By admission on both sides proper procedures where not followed

3. When you use PAYPAL, all sales regardless of where they where initiated fall under PAYPAL's rules of selling. Period. Don't like it, don't use it. You signed the terms of use when you set up the account. Did you read it? Probably not, nobody tends to, but again that is your problem.


Sorry if any of that is to harsh, IMO the proper thing to do would be to at least split the shipping cost... Doesn't look like the seller is going to do that, so eat the shipping cost and call it a learning experiance, may be a little harsh, but if you buy or sell without using the rules set by places and common sense then you will eventually get burned. I have been buying and selling on the net for.... ahhh.... 14 years now. Started when I was 12, and knock on wood I have yet to be "screwed," that is not to say I haven't gotten items in less than the perfect shape I thought they should be in, but never to this point.

4.

VikingJZ
12-07-2010, 03:44 PM
Here is the other problem guys,

I cannot do ANYTHING until either he closes to PayPal dispute or it finishes, which would be after January 4th if I am reading what the information on the Console reads right. My funds are locked because of this.

Additionally, with the PayPal dispute open, he has to return both packages to get the remainder of the money.


Austin, here is what you can do. You can choose to wait via PayPal and extend the time that you will be without your money possibly another month or more.

I am willing to meet in the middle. Send the panels back and I'll let you keep the enclosures. I will refund $75 the moment I get them.

VikingJZ
12-07-2010, 04:22 PM
Additionally, I might add that Austin canceled the original PayPal dispute, citing that an amicable solution was reached. They were immediately escalated to claims with no disputes allowed, so I cannot even supply information to PayPal about this situation.

I then noticed he opened another one under the same circumstances, that he received them not as described.


Here is the problem: If this goes through, PayPal can take an additional $125 from me after the original refund of $40.


That's not going to fly, Austin. At that point, you are profiting from this situation.

Keep in mind, you still have to send these back in order to get any form of refund. That means both packages (panels and enclosures) if you keep the disputes open.

temperacerguy
12-07-2010, 08:33 PM
I might add that Austin canceled the original PayPal dispute, citing that an amicable solution was reached. They were immediately escalated to claims with no disputes allowed, so I cannot even supply information to PayPal about this situation.

I then noticed he opened another one under the same circumstances, that he received them not as described.

Actually, what happened is that paypal opened the origional dispute incorrectly. They opened it as a "items not delivered" dispute. I got an E-mail last night (at 10:21pm) that paypal had recieved a tracking number from the seller and that the dispute would be closed. I then called paypal and said that they had input the dispute incorrectly. They appologized, closed the "items not delivered" dispute (at 10:35pm) and opened a "Items not as described" dispute at 10:41pm. This was a mistake on paypal's part, that I was unaware of till 10:21pm last night, and was corrected within 20 minutes.


Here is the problem: If this goes through, PayPal can take an additional $125 from me after the original refund of $40.


That's not going to fly, Austin. At that point, you are profiting from this situation.
The Paypal rep, Tom, has assured me that if this goes to that point, that while all of the funds are currently being held, that the funds will be dispursed properly once the claim is processed (the moment that UPS tracking shows the package as delivered. I have never wanted to profit from this purchase, I just have not wanted to be "in the hole"


I am willing to meet in the middle. Send the panels back and I'll let you keep the enclosures. I will refund $75 the moment I get them.

I will agree to this. I have contacted Paypal, and notified them of this acceptable resolution. You should have recieved an E-mail from paypal regarding this. Please contact paypal and let them know that you agree to this (otherwise they will refund me the full balance). I will put the panels in the same box they arrived in, take them down to UPS and pay for shipping. I will then provide a tracking number to paypal today, and once they show delivered in UPS's system, I will contact Paypal. If you have agreed to the aditional $75 refund by that point , then I will be refunded $75, and the remainder will be released back into your account, If not, paypal will send me the full balance of the transaction.

Once this is over, we both go on our merry way, and have learned quite a bit.


On a side note:

3. When you use PAYPAL, all sales regardless of where they where initiated fall under PAYPAL's rules of selling. Period. Don't like it, don't use it. You signed the terms of use when you set up the account. Did you read it? Probably not, nobody tends to, but again that is your problem.

This is a hole in their rules... a pretty big hole too.

Paypal has aknowledged this hole in their rules. They are aware of it, and trying to find a way of plugging it. They call it their "box of rocks" issue. Here's the way it was explained to me. Let's say that you purchased some widget for $1500. You spent every last cent you had getting this widget because normally it costs $5000, and it was too big of a bargain to pass up. 2 weeks pass by, and a 150lb box shows up on your doorstep from DHL. You open the box, and it's 150lbs of rocks. You check the DHL sheet and it shows the package origionated from (Hong Kong, Nigeria, wherever). You contact paypal, and they contact the seller. The seller states that those are rocks from a sacred burial site, and are worth a fortune... thank you so much for letting them know of the mistake, please send them back to us and you will recieve a complete 100% refund! You check shipping, and it will cost $1000 to ship back to the seller. You don't have $1000, you can't get $1000 within the next 10 days, your claim expires, and the seller just took you for $1500. Even in the best case senerio, you ship back the rocks, spending $1000, get back your purchase price of $1500, and you just lost $1000 to get NOTHING.

While the intent, items, and figures of this explaination are exagerated, the hole in the policy is the same.

Facime
12-07-2010, 09:24 PM
widget story

Its absolutely a hole in the system and I personally have been screwed by it myself. I chalk some of it up to "the cost of doing business" or a learning experience, but that hardly does anything to remove the sting I feel when I open the box and know I just got nothing for something.

gopher_6_9
12-07-2010, 10:39 PM
wow, I guess I just never heard or thought of it. I can see where that can happen....

temperacerguy
12-07-2010, 11:03 PM
OK, the panels are on their way back in the same manor and box they were shipped to me in. UPS states that the seller should have the panels on 12/10/10. I have notified paypal of the seller's suggested resolution and that I have accepted it. Paypal has E-mailed seller that they have been notified of the resolution, and are awaiting his response. I have provided paypal with the UPS tracking number for the panels. On 12/10/10 when the tracking number shows that the package was delivered, I will notify Paypal as such. Please be in touch with paypal regarding the proposed solution so that paypal can refund the correct amount.

MCcelica
12-08-2010, 09:33 AM
If all involved parties are amicable with the outcome, I am as well.

gopher_6_9
12-08-2010, 01:13 PM
Glad you guys worked it out.

VikingJZ
12-09-2010, 04:40 PM
Looks like they will be arriving tomorrow. I will let you know when I get them and have contacted PayPal.

VikingJZ
12-10-2010, 06:47 PM
I was informed shortly ago that a large package arrived at my house. I am assuming its the panels.

They will be inspected after I get off work and a refund processed shortly thereafter.

temperacerguy
12-10-2010, 11:18 PM
Well, paypal had recieved notification that the panels were delivered, and refunded me the balance of the transaction ($85). As we had agreed upon $75 in this thread, I sent the seller $10 to put things where we had agreed upon.

Seller has recieved his door panels back.
Buyer has recieved the system 10 speaker mounts, and essentially paid $37 for them (after return shipping and refund).

I believe this issue is resolved.

Thank you moderators for stepping in. I opened this thread not as a means to bash someone, or to cause any bad blood, or even to air dirty laundry. I really was just asking for advice.

Over the past 5 years, I have done over $25,000 in paypal transactions, and hold both business and premire advantage accounts. This was only the 2nd transaction where there was a dispute, Sadly, both were celica transactions within the past 3 months. Prior to the moderators stepping in, I was going to swear off transactions through celicatech due to the problems. However they steped in, and really worked to make the transaction right, and I appreciate that. It's good to know that they are there to help out. Thank you!

VikingJZ
12-10-2010, 11:37 PM
Payment transferred and completed.

Swearing off transactions here isnt necessary. I never intended for this to happen and they certainly were not shipped that way to begin with. I'm not making accusations in any way shape or form because its neither here nor there.

I'm glad we could reach a solution.

Enjoy the enclosures.

MCcelica
12-11-2010, 07:01 AM
Now who wants to make me a sammich?

Just kidding. Glad yall got everything worked out. :)

temperacerguy
12-11-2010, 08:01 AM
Now who wants to make me a sammich?

I'll send ya $5 for a footlong

187flatliner
12-11-2010, 08:52 AM
while your sending him five, i want five 2.

MCcelica
12-12-2010, 06:17 AM
Wait wait wait wait... I was the one who wanted someone to make ME a sammich... Now all of a sudden I'm expected to open a Quiznoz? LOL what's THAT all about?

manda
12-12-2010, 07:21 AM
Now who wants to make me a sammich?

your sammich has been sitting on my counter waiting for you for like.. a while now.. you may wanna come get it before it goes bad, jus saying