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FluffyNutts
09-27-2010, 06:33 AM
Well, doing a lot of research, I've decided not to do a cheap build with OE stuff and nippon pistons. I am actually going so far as follows in hopes to get me to around 275-300 HP

Possible turbo upgrade.. ct20b or TD06- will the td06 bolt on just like the ct20

wiesco pistons- .40 over.

stock head rebuild.

possibly eagle h beam rods- are these required for a 300HP build or will stock rods handle the power? I've been reading mixed reviews.

and lastly my transmission is a 5sfe, is it capable of handling 300+ HP or do I have to covert the 3sgte to FWD with the writeups here on the forums?

Thanks everyone.

T-spoon
09-27-2010, 04:09 PM
Turbo - No. Whole different setup requiring its own manifold, cooling lines, etc.

Rods - Mixed reviews due to mixed results.

Transmission - Also mixed results, but MOST people that have tried sticking with the 5sfe transmission with a 3s swap have broken theirs, and 250-300 HP is in that same typical range. As far as converting an Alltrac/GT4 transmission to FWD (or MR2), sure that's an option, but so is using a Camry trans that is already set up for FWD, just has different ratios.

ChrisD
09-27-2010, 05:06 PM
TD06 is not the same type of bolt on, but usually it will come with the full kit, with downpipe, manifold adapter, coolant/oil lines. It will certainly make your power goal easier than a 20b. But, is more expensive.

I'd probably keep the overbore to a minimum (0.020) whenever you can, but that's me.

Stock rods can handle that power, but, if you're building it, a few hundred bucks probably well spent. Plus would give you room to grow.

Trans...I dunno, you can always try and see how it holds up. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. MR2 trans or Camry trans are probably the best alternatives. MR2 with LSD is awesome but pricey.

FluffyNutts
09-27-2010, 05:18 PM
Thanks for the input, I guess I will go with the h beam rods for security, I was reading power primer from someone and had everything to reach my goal and what not. I am going to try and do .20 over but I have score marks which are kinda deep and going to cause me to bore it and I need to get it measured as I dont know if 20 over is going to be enough. Transmission wise, you know someone I can talk to that used the camry transmission to find out which year and how the gears make a difference?

Sang
09-27-2010, 08:43 PM
Used td06 kit is, by far, the better choice if you want to make 300whp daily on pump. Even if you planned to make the trip out to lakeland with a drum to run e85 daily, I wouldn't risk running a ceramic at 20psi+ daily.

If you plan to run an estimated 300HP at the crank, get a 20B.

4thgenceli
09-27-2010, 08:55 PM
Thanks for the input, I guess I will go with the h beam rods for security, I was reading power primer from someone and had everything to reach my goal and what not. I am going to try and do .20 over but I have score marks which are kinda deep and going to cause me to bore it and I need to get it measured as I dont know if 20 over is going to be enough. Transmission wise, you know someone I can talk to that used the camry transmission to find out which year and how the gears make a difference?
Poke around at the MR2OC for sale forums. Chances are you'll find an e153 from a mr2 with a LSD in it for a decent price. Not the hardest thing to convert to FWD either.

joe's gt
09-28-2010, 04:49 AM
If you plan to beat on it, go e153. Casual driving, s54 is fine. Can't get mad if it breaks tho. Its a risk you take.

FluffyNutts
09-29-2010, 01:51 AM
Well, here is my price list for the main stuff, I will use the 5s tranny and keep boost to stock until I can afford a transmission after the engine build.

Wiesco Pistons and Eagle Rods with ARP Rod bolts - 760 Shipped
ATS Ct27 Turbo - 800 dollars + Shipping
Acl Race Bearings - 150 + Shipping
Toyota OEM Engine & Turbo Gasket set - 350 picked up( If I get the CT27 from ATS will I need to buy the turbo gaskets still? )
ARP Head Bolts - 150 + Shipping
ATS Fuel Pressure Regulator - 75 + Shipping
ATS Fuel Rail Modification - 75 + Shipping
Intercooler Piping kit custom fabricated - Got a qoute for 400-500
Bore My block .20-.40 over - 40

That is just the basics... I plan on getting around 300 HP. With these mods I should be able to hit that with a proper tune. My question is, anything any of you see that I can save money on or go with a different brand that will save some money?

celicasilfee
09-29-2010, 02:36 AM
I spent a whopping $150 shipped for a universal 9 pipe piece intercooler piping kit & it even included all the clamps & couplers needed. With a saw & a little intuition, I used a total of 3 pieces out of it. It looks/works perfectly. Even clocked the turbo to eliminate the piping over the manifold. Do it yourself & save a TON of money. Also, all the ATS rail modification is, is they drill out the center of the fuel rail so it's a bigger hole. If you have basic knowledge of how to use a drill & bit, I'm pretty sure you can do that yourself & save a bunch there, too. You just need to find a 7-8mm drill bit long enough & keep it oiled up enough to not dull the bit up super quick. Just make sure you get a spare & work on the spare first, just in case. ;)

Also, I don't see you including a tune in the equation anywhere. What are you using to tune & are you tuning it yourself or having someone do it for you? That's probably the most important part (in my opinion) & will run you a couple hundred extra dollars.

My .02

FluffyNutts
09-29-2010, 02:56 AM
Ah, thanks for info about the piping kit, where did you purchase it? you think it will work for a 93 gt with a 3s swap? I found this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130431317023&crlp=1_263602_263622&ff4=263602_263622&viewitem=&guid=f4547f5212a0a04371a4b404ffbdc808&rvr_id=146964324386&ua=WXI6&itemid=130431317023 and I would rather NOT drill my self. I was reading the MR-2 power primer and was told that a tune with the A/F ratio will make it run happier.

celicasilfee
09-29-2010, 03:17 AM
That's similar to the kit I got, but mine was black. It did take a little finesse to get it to work, but once it did, it was perfect.

I can understand not wanting to drill the rail yourself, just wanted to give you the option.

& as far as tuning, you need a tuning software in order to get the air/fuel right. Whether you get a simple rom tune through a company like ATS, use a piggyback, or go full standalone- the choice is yours, but you'll need something. Hit up the EFI section on here & read as many threads as you can about piggyback vs standalone, then read about rom tunes & make the decision for yourself. Everyone has different thoughts & it's always quite the debate. lol

FluffyNutts
09-29-2010, 07:29 PM
Along with doing the piping myself, I can save money on on not getting the CT27 turbo, ARp head bolts, ATS FPR and Rail because I planned on keeping boost to stock until I got a better tranny. So with this, I can use OE head bolts, factory turbo and fuel systems until I get parts for the tranny and to do my head, do yall think that will work too? So basically, its going to be a bottom end fully built waiting to add a bigger turbo, fuel system and built head... Thoughts on this idea?

ChrisD
09-29-2010, 08:54 PM
I personally wouldn't go with ebay piping kits. You can get higher grade mandrel aluminum bends for cheaper. Try googling 'weld ebay intercooler piping'.

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47381

FluffyNutts
09-29-2010, 09:30 PM
Ah yes, I do remember reading that, how many pipes did you buy and what degree bends?

ChrisD
09-29-2010, 10:12 PM
We did it with:

8x 90* bends
1x 45* bends
1x straight pipe

This is with the turbo clocked down.

Facime
09-29-2010, 10:48 PM
PLEASE dont get OE headbolts in an attepmt to save a few bucks. Go ARP from the start. Also, dont skimp on the headgasket. Since you have it all apart anyway and you are doing a bottom end capable or more than you are planning to run, I would STRONGLY recommend a Cometic or other MLSHG. (realize you will have to machine the head and block for the proper RA depending on the gasket you use.)

On a boosted setup, this is NOT a good area to try to save money on if you want a reliable motor.


Edit: also realize that if done properly a MLS head gasket is reusable, so if you decide to build a head to match later, you will already have the block surfaced, and the right hardware in hand.

celicasilfee
09-29-2010, 11:11 PM
^ +1

FluffyNutts
09-30-2010, 12:01 AM
I had oe head bolts... they stood up to the 227 HP, you saying they wont be reliable with just having the bottom end built? And the head gasket that comes with the Toyota OEM toyota set would not work?

Facime
09-30-2010, 12:25 AM
Im not saying they wouldnt work, Im saying I wouldnt skimp in this area on an other than OEM build thats going to be running boost. To me its just kind of silly to do a forged bottom end then put OE headbolts and a composite gasket on top of it.

Its like building an earthquake proof foundation then attaching the house to it using drywall screws.



Whenever you bolt an aluminum head to a cast iron block you have two disimiliar metals heating, expanding, contracting, etc. Add fairly extreme compression under boost and guess where the most common failure point is?


Build for the goal, or you will be building it again. Im not a fan of doing things twice.

FluffyNutts
09-30-2010, 12:46 AM
very well put, cometic is the way to go I guess, I never new Toyota head gaskets were composite. Are ARP headbolts reusible?

Facime
09-30-2010, 02:41 AM
Since they are not torque to yield they are indeed reuseable and another reason to buy them if you think the head is coming off again in the near future.

Edit: I used a Cometic on my 7M build and never blew another HG on that motor. They dont have quite as a high an RA spec as some other metal head gaskets so most machine shops have no problem surfacing for them. Cometic recommends RA50 or finer. Once again make sure you surface both the head and the block to that spec or better. If not it will leak.

Also right from Cometic's website:
Top End Gasket Kit (w/87mm Head Gasket) PRO2019T $149.95
Bottom End Gasket Kit PRO2019B $62.95

FluffyNutts
09-30-2010, 03:15 AM
You're awesome man, cometic kits beat felpro and meet or exceed OE?

Facime
09-30-2010, 03:49 AM
I dont know about the quality of the rest of their standard gaskets, Ive never used them for anything other than the HG myself. There are very few gaskets I can think of that are mission critical. I tend to use cheap gaskets sets for the paper stuff and coat them in spray copper. I would have to assume that based on the quality of their MLS gaskets, that the rest of what they sell would meet or exceed OEM.