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klapa
09-11-2010, 01:26 AM
Well I had a thread somewhere about my problem with my AllTrac pushbutton start "feature" that was installed by the previous owner.

This is - I suppose - the "hot setup" - but in my case one day the switch just disintegrated when I pushed it - thus no more start.

I looked into these pushbutton start things and found that nearly all of them are just a switch that controls a relay which in turn feeds the starter solenoid - which seems to require a fairly high amount of current (~10A). My setup was not like that - in fact the switch that had been installed was a high current switch and the wiring had all been changed such that the switch went directly to the starter solenoid - completely bypassing the original wiring and starter relay - and also bypassing the clutch switch. As a matter of fact - when I would turn the key switch to the start position - I would hear nothing at all - no "click" from the original starter relay.

So anyway - I tried the "easy thing" - simply to short the two wires that had been on the switch - but just the "dreaded click". Finally I installed my own "starter relay" with a pushbutton switch to actuate the coil. Then VIOLA! - the starter would turn the engine over!

The "fake" starter relay:

http://www.nashdom.com/CompPics/StarterRelay(640 x 480).jpg

Yet the car would not start and I found this was because of no fuel delivery. So I jumpered the diag connector for the fuel pump and then I was in business - the thing started and ran.

Last weekend I was looking into this a bit more and checked the passenger side interior kick panel - relay block 4. I found that actually there was a relay there so I was thinking maybe the wiring to the key switch was modified. I was about to tear into that when I got lucky (for a change) - I found an added wire from the battery negative to the frame was loose at the frame. So I tightened that up and changed the crimp connector - and VIOLA! - the starter relay clicked when I would turn the key switch to the start position.

The next morning (Tuesday after Labor Day) I drove the thing to work - and AMAZING things happened! While the various gauges on my dash (temp, tach, and fuel) had always worked, the factory boost gauge had never worked. As I have an aftermarket boost gauge on the top of the dash I figured this was normal - yet after tightening that ground wire magically the dash boost gauge was functioning.

So - I figured at this point that I was "standing in tall cotton". Yet - no such luck.

When I went to leave work that Tuesday afternoon - I just got the "dreaded click" when I tried to start it. I tried the idea that maybe the battery was bad - but nope - the voltage was fine even when trying to start. Luckily my workplace is at the top of a hill - so I got it home with the old push start.

I have doubts that my starter would go bad so suddenly just sitting in a parking lot - the problems lies somewhere else I think.

I should be able to fix this! It "should" be simple. Here is the connection to the starter solenoid:

http://www.nashdom.com/CompPics/StarterWire1(640 x 480).jpg

This leads to this menagerie goes toward the cabin through the fender well:

http://www.nashdom.com/CompPics/StarterWire2(640 x 480).jpg

So - anyway - I think my only problem here is either crossed wires or too much resistance - and if I can restore the original wiring then perhaps I can start and thus move the darn thing. Even if the starter is actually bad (which I doubt) - I could fix that too.

My main problem is that this car is rather "daunting" to figure out. It has so many sensors, actuators, and other "things" that I am rather afraid to screw something up - as I might never figure out what I did wrong. I need to do some homework - but in the meantime I need to be able to move the thing around.

A case in point - here what I see when I want to work on my engine:

http://www.nashdom.com/CompPics/EngineBay2(640 x 480).jpg

This is what I mean by "daunting".

temperacerguy
09-11-2010, 02:15 AM
When I used to own a shop, and people came into me with your problem and ask "how much will it cost to fix?" I would look at them and say "you don't want to know. because it's gonna be 20+ hours of diagnostics, and 5 minutes to repair."

Here's my recomendation....

First off, you want to make sure all your grounds are ok Grounds are MORE important than power. You have no idea how many times I would chase electrical demons on someone's car to find out that the grounds were unbolted, and either put back on loosely or not at all. This is extremely common with engine swaps. Make sure that your battery to chassis, and chassis to engine grounds are there. Now here's the "horrible ground" on 3S-GTE engines. Toyota grounds all of their sensors/VSVs/solonoids through the harness. the ground wire is then "grounded" to the engine by a 6mm bolt on the back lower side of the intake manifold... you then need to make sure that your manifold is grounded to the chassis or engine block, and that the block is grounded to the chassis.

Then "work your way backwards" Start off with your starter... make sure that your starter is getting power by making sure that you have 12V to your starter wire.

Then make sure that your starter/solonoid is good by jumping the solonoid. If the starter kicks over, then you're good there.

Then at the solonoid, test that you're getting 12V from your starter "switch"

My bet is that you have either a grounding issue, or that your wiring from the "switch" to the solonoid is not good.

---------- Post added at 09:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

BTW... You are going to want to put your AFM back to "Flat" (it's currently on it's side) The AFM is a flapper door style, and measures airflow through the swing of that door. With it on it's side, every time you hit a bump, the door is going to swing causing an incorrect reading of airflow (and causing a huge restriction) which will cause your engine to either choke, or sputter.

klapa
09-11-2010, 04:19 PM
Thanks for the reply, temperacer - that's good feedback - and I appreciate it. I'll check the ground connection on the intake manifold - assuming I can actually SEE it!

As an electronics engineer, I certainly understand the importance of grounding. With experience on cars, I also understand the problems of relying on the frame for grounds.

I'm going to "ream out" the battery cables first, then get a remote starter switch and also check resistance on the starter solenoid coil to check the starter. Then - as you suggest - work backwards from there.

93cc
09-12-2010, 10:07 PM
I had very similar issues to what you were having and I added a relay switch between the solenoid and the starter and it fixed my starting problems.

klapa
09-19-2010, 01:10 AM
So - I have made some progress at least on this one. I worked on this today and while I still do not have the starting mechanism using the stock starter relay at least I can start the thing using my "external" starter relay.

Along the way I have found a few things out about this car.

To "cut to the chase" of my immediate needs - I need to be able to start the darn thing and move it around - so I found what I will call a "ground feature" in the wiring - I have no idea where these grounds went but certainly could guess from the "connections" that they could be better:

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/GroundFeature%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

I had wanted to find where the wire from the standard starter relay in the car had been cut - or bypassed - but was not able to do that. I did get it down to the connector - EB2 - that comes in the firewall on the passenger side - and did verify that this connector and the wires - black, white, and black/orange are actually there on my car - I just can't find where the black wire has been "interrupted" by the connection to the "push button start" switch which no longer works.

At least after doing the tings I did - I can reliably start the thing again - though I still park it on a hill - "just in case".

I am "lucky" here in that I have a "spare harness" to look at - though while I am not sure I am betting that "Dr. Tweek" did not make this harness:

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/SpareHarrness%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

So - anyway - after reaming out the grounds - and the battery wires - I am at least back on the road with my console mounted starter relay.

I did learn a few things today - namely that the guy who sold me the car did not lie - it does seem that this a JDM engine - as my fuse box on the battery side has both English and Japanese language - while the "spare harness" - which seems to be the original car harness - has only English.

I was looking at some other "stuff" - after temporacer told be my "AFM" was sideways. Of course here - I needed to just say - "Yea?" - when actually I have no idea at all as to what an "AFM" is!

I think it is this thing - and this is "AirFuelMix": (just guessing)

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/IsThisAnAFM%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

Note how I have already "turned it over" just like I am an expert - I just hope I don't have it upside down!

Thee are other "funny things" I don't understand yet - like this:

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/FunnyStuff1%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

What the heck is that thing that looks like a siren? Is that a wastegate? Of course in this pic my AFM (if that is what it actually is" is still turned sideways - assuming that it is now turned "right side up".

But WAIT - there's more! Don't order yet!

More funny stuff - I've gt a couple of these "things" flopping around in my wiring - they appear to be something like a ballast of sorts:

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/FunnyStuff2%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

Here is another one of these "critters" - under my "AFM" (I think)

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/FunnyStuff3%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

I am happy that I can once again move my Alltrac around without needing to rely on parking on a hill.

As simple as this seems - it IS "progress" for me. While I still really don't have a clue about how this car works - I have a chance to figure it all out and no longer have my back against the wall as far as being able to move the thing around.

klapa
09-19-2010, 01:10 AM
So - I have made some progress at least on this one. I worked on this today and while I still do not have the starting mechanism using the stock starter relay at least I can start the thing using my "external" starter relay.

Along the way I have found a few things out about this car.

To "cut to the chase" of my immediate needs - I need to be able to start the darn thing and move it around - so I found what I will call a "ground feature" in the wiring - I have no idea where these grounds went but certainly could guess from the "connections" that they could be better:

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/GroundFeature%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

I had wanted to find where the wire from the standard starter relay in the car had been cut - or bypassed - but was not able to do that. I did get it down to the connector - EB2 - that comes in the firewall on the passenger side - and did verify that this connector and the wires - black, white, and black/orange are actually there on my car - I just can't find where the black wire has been "interrupted" by the connection to the "push button start" switch which no longer works.

At least after doing the tings I did - I can reliably start the thing again - though I still park it on a hill - "just in case".

I am "lucky" here in that I have a "spare harness" to look at - though while I am not sure I am betting that "Dr. Tweek" did not make this harness:

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/SpareHarrness%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

So - anyway - after reaming out the grounds - and the battery wires - I am at least back on the road with my console mounted starter relay.

I did learn a few things today - namely that the guy who sold me the car did not lie - it does seem that this a JDM engine - as my fuse box on the battery side has both English and Japanese language - while the "spare harness" - which seems to be the original car harness - has only English.

I was looking at some other "stuff" - after temporacer told be my "AFM" was sideways. Of course here - I needed to just say - "Yea?" - when actually I have no idea at all as to what an "AFM" is!

I think it is this thing - and this is "AirFuelMix": (just guessing)

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/IsThisAnAFM%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

Note how I have already "turned it over" just like I am an expert - I just hope I don't have it upside down!

Thee are other "funny things" I don't understand yet - like this:

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/FunnyStuff1%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

What the heck is that thing that looks like a siren? Is that a wastegate? Of course in this pic my AFM (if that is what it actually is" is still turned sideways - assuming that it is now turned "right side up".

But WAIT - there's more! Don't order yet!

More funny stuff - I've gt a couple of these "things" flopping around in my wiring - they appear to be something like a ballast of sorts:

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/FunnyStuff2%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

Here is another one of these "critters" - under my "AFM" (I think)

http://www.nashdom.com/Alltrac/FunnyStuff3%28640%20x%20480%29.jpg

I am happy that I can once again move my Alltrac around without needing to rely on parking on a hill.

As simple as this seems - it IS "progress" for me. While I still really don't have a clue about how this car works - I have a chance to figure it all out and no longer have my back against the wall as far as being able to move the thing around.

Nitro_Alltrac
09-19-2010, 01:59 AM
Glad it will now at least start. I wonder why the hell they changed the harness when the swapped the engine. Really no need for that. My car has a JDM engine in it but the original harness.

Anyway, the silver siren looking thing is a blowoff valve. In case you don't know what that is its a valve that relieves the boost pressure in the system when you let off the gas. This relieves the stress on the turbine wheel in the turbo. The MR2's and the 205's had one (although it wasn't vented to the atmosphere, they recirculate into the intake track ahead of the turbo.) stock. On a 165/185 a BOV vented to the atmosphere can potentially cause the car to stutter or back fire because the ECU has already recieved the amount of incoming air from the AFM (air flow meter) and is expecting that amount to go into the cylinders. It dumps more fuel in to match that amount of air. With the BOV in place, not as much air goes in. If you can, I would turn it so that it's not blow up on the bottom of the AFM. Probably won't hurt anything, but not blowing on it won't hurt.

The silver things in the other pictures are resistors. From where they appear to be, they are probably the fuel pump resistor packs. At least that's what they look like.

klapa
09-19-2010, 02:43 AM
The silver things in the other pictures are resistors. From where they appear to be, they are probably the fuel pump resistor packs. At least that's what they look like.

Yea - that's what I thought - and what I meant by "ballasts" - these are resistors used for ignition coils in the "old days".

speaking of fuel pumps - you bring up a good question that i have.

that question would be - do I have a fuel pump relay?

I have one on my electrical schematic for not only the Alltrac - but also both the GT and the GT-S. If I look at the legend on the fuse/relay box over near the front passenger fender for any of these cars (and I have ALL of these cars) - there is a "legend" on the fuse/relay box lid that specifies "fuel pump" and shows a relay outline,

Yet - there is NO relay in that indicated slot - just an empty connector - be it GT, GT-S, or Alltrac - I have all three of these cars and can take pictures if you like - they all have a place for a relay - but none actually have the relay installed.

Still - for all of three cars - the electrical schematic shows a fuel pump relay that is controlled by the ECM - be they manual or automatic trans.

When I had initial trouble with my Alltrac push button start feature breaking - and needed to install the "extra" starter relay - I also had to jumper the fuel pump at the diagnostic connector to get it running (FP+ TO IGN).

Now - since I have found these other ground problems - I am able to remove this jumper and the thing still runs - even if there is "not" any fuel pump relay.

Just more "funny stuff" to think about.

Nitro_Alltrac
09-19-2010, 03:11 AM
That's a good question Klapa. I just checked my wiring diagram manual and it shows a fuel pump relay in that block on the passenger fender. The only difference between the All Trac and the FWD cars, at least according to the diagram, is that the All Trac uses a 4 pin relay while the FWD cars shows to use only pins 1 and 4. If you can run now without the jumper and it would run before, it sounds like everything is there. I'll have to check mine tomorrow and see if there is a relay in that spot. That's really weird.

On your starter issue, you might want to check this thread:

http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49249

90ToyAllTrac had an issue where his car wouldn't start after the swap. He changed the harness out during the swap. ChrisD posted a lot of good info on the starter circuit going clear to the relay. It might help you out.

klapa
09-19-2010, 06:47 PM
I was slightly incorrect - in fact the AllTrac DOES have a fuel pump relay.

The reason I didn't see it is because it is in the bottom of the fuse box, lying horizontal, with no cover on it.

I double-checked all three cars this AM - the GTS, GT, and Alltrac. All have this silkscreen on the top of the fuse/relay box mounted at the forward passenger side of the engine bay.

The GTS has a four pin connector with only two pins that have wires - and GRN and WHT/BLK wire. Nothing is plugged in this connector - but also keep in mind that the GTS does not run (at least not yet) - it is a parts car. Somebody might have grabbed what was installed there.

For the GT - it has the same silkscreen on the relay/fuse box cover for the relay - but has only a two-pin connector which has what seems to be a plain jumper or perhaps fusable link installed in it.

The relay/fuse box on the AllTrac does not have Japanese writing on it like the one by the battery. The bottom of the box (where the realy sockets woul mount) is broken out for the area where the fuel pump relay would normally plug in. So - my best guess here is that the person who swapped the engine did not have a complete JDM harness - and thus had to "press into service" this relay/fuse box from a USDM harness. The relay lying in the bottom of this box appears to have four wires attached to it - though it is difficult to see and at this early point I dare not move it.

I took some pics I will post up later.

Just another "electrical surprise". One thing is for sure - I won't be straying far from home in this car for quite awhile.

ChrisD
09-21-2010, 04:54 PM
Going to move this to FI as this is a 3SGTE issue.