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View Full Version : Fantasy Build: 450 WHP 3S-GTE [TECH]



ChrisD
09-01-2010, 06:31 PM
Thought it would be fun to build a CTech "fantasy" motor. On one hand, I'd love to do this someday, on the other, maybe we can build a roadmap for people looking to go to this level.

So let's brainstorm. I'll update the 1st post with our running parts list. If you suggest a part, do it like so:

-Part / Upgrade
-Justification / reasoning
-Mandatory / optional
-Alternative / comparable options and "best fit" (i.e. best fit for high revving versus low end torque)
-Estimated Cost

Engine Internal

5S-FE Block & 5S-FE Crank
-2.163L at stock (87mm) bore, 2.189 at 87.5mm bore
Benefits: Only 1 engine for donor is required, can get close to 2.2L, better midrange than oversquare. Can use stronger 98+ 5S.
Tradeoff: potentially less top end, potentially less strong than oversquare.
Cost: ~$150 short block core, + machine work or builder rates
Alternatives: Oversquare 5S/3S, Traditional Stroker 3S/5S, ATS 2.3L, or 3S/3S forged (http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=30121931&postcount=5)

Pistons: Wiseco ATS Stroker, Ross 8.5:1, CP
Rods: Eagle ($350), Pauter ($650)

Head

Head Work: Stock with casting cleaned up and gasket matched.
Valves: Stock/std size
Springs: Engle spring
Cams: HKS 264's
Cam Gears: Of choice - Fidanza, ATS, HKS, etc. all make good products

Fuel System

Budget: Walbro Fuel Pump, bored rail (if gen2), crush / modified FPR, 800-850's at 50psi.
Less Budget: Modifed stock hanger with 044 in-tank fuel pump, DIY TFFR, AFPR, and side feed 800-850s
Not so Budget: Wolfkatz pickup, 044 external fuel pump, TFFR, AFPR, 1000cc+ injectors

Turbocharger and Intercooling
-
-

Ignition System and Engine Management
-
-

Cooling System
-
-

Oil System
-
-

etc..

burnyd
09-01-2010, 08:14 PM
ls1

theadidasmunky
09-01-2010, 08:28 PM
Let's at least start with an engine that fits in a celica...

Sean
09-01-2010, 08:58 PM
And then I will build it.

ChrisD
09-01-2010, 09:30 PM
LOL

So we can provide a few block options. I would say that a built engine is mandatory, not optional, however there are several different routes you could take.

Here are a few...some info I've copied/pasted from various sources, fyi.

So what gets the nod for our 450whp build? Lets say we are not building a track queen, want good midrange and also want reliability. Remember this will all fit with the other component selection...a properly sized turbo is key in reliability as well...

5S-FE Block & 5S-FE Crank
-2.163L at stock (87mm) bore, 2.189 at 87.5mm bore
-Benefit: Only 1 engine for donor is required, can get close to 2.2L, better midrange than oversquare. Can use stronger 98+ 5S.
Tradeoff: potentially less top end, potentially less strong than oversquare.
-~$150 short block core

5S-FE Block & 3S-GTE Crank aka oversquare
-2.045L at stock (87mm) bore, 2.092 at 88mm bore
-Benefit: With the oversquare there less piston speed/acceleration, less dynamic load/tension, less cylinder wall load, has a much longer dwell time further deshrouding the valve increasing air flow velocity, etc. Can use stronger 98+ 5S.
-Trade-Off: Slightly less midrange power than a stroker / 3S based build, also must deal with 5S nuances for installation
-~$150 short block core, 3S crank from original engine

3S-GTE Block & 5S-FE Crank ("traditional" 3S based stroker)
-2.139L with 86.5mm pistons, 2.163 at 87mm pistons
-Benefit: better midrange than a 5S block with 3S crank.
Tradeoff: Potentially less top end than oversquare, potentially less strong. Also can't take advantage of stronger 98+ 5S block.
-~$150 short block core for crank or separate if available?

ATS 2.3L Stroker
-5S based, reworked crank with longer stroke, 88mm pistons
-$3100, includes pistons, rods, bearings
-Benefit: fully assembled with warranty and install support

Or, just a good old 3S/3S built engine @ 1998cc! A tad more with an overbore.

Sean
09-01-2010, 09:32 PM
2.2 Liter 5S block to start

pintoBC_3sgte
09-02-2010, 06:06 AM
Haha the ats route seems so much easier then anything. I should have just done that instead of turboing my 5sfe and I probably would have saved a bunch :p

Sang
09-02-2010, 06:37 AM
If we're talking fantasy build, then I'd start with a 2.4L long rod stroker.

vip09
09-02-2010, 07:00 AM
If you are only going for 450whp, then I would say go with the 5S block/ 5S crank.

On my next build I'm using the 5S block / 3S crank with 88mm pistons.

burnyd
09-02-2010, 03:33 PM
vip09 driver mod

Funkycheeze
09-02-2010, 03:53 PM
Step 1: Convert to 7MGTE and RWD

Step 2: Profit.

ChrisD
09-02-2010, 06:16 PM
If we're talking fantasy build, then I'd start with a 2.4L long rod stroker.

Yeah..."fantasy", but keeping budget in mind too. Partly want to make a good, realistic roadmap for getting there.

OK, I'll update the first post with the 5S/5S combo as that's where it seems most people went. I'll leave the others as legitimate alternatives.

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 AM ----------

Now lets pick our pistons, rods, bearings...

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-02-2010, 06:45 PM
Wiseco ATS stroker pistons with some good ole fashion eagle rods

bloodMoney
09-02-2010, 06:46 PM
For the build that Nyx and I are going with, we are keeping the stock bore and stroke because from what I understand while most engines are usually either bore-biased (rev-happy) or stroke-biased (better torque), the 3s being a square motor is a good compromise of the two.

I feel that this would be necessary for a 'proper' street engine which is why we made the decisions we did.

PISTONS: ROSS (standard bore) 9:1 compression {$560 KORACING}
Rods: Eagle H-beams with proper pin bore clearance to allow for ROSS's floating pins {$340 KORACING}
BEARINGS: Clevite 77 mains and rods {$105 ebay}
GASKETS:
OEM Toyota gasket set {$248 KORACING}
TRD 0.8mm Metal head gasket {$95 KORACING}
Pumps:
'98+ 5SFE oil pump {$115}
'98+ 5SFE water pump {$79 1sttoyota}

We haven't yet decided if we are going to have any headwork done. We will be keeping the stock cams as we will be running a ST185 ECU still.

ChrisD
09-02-2010, 06:59 PM
For the build that Nyx and I are going with, we are keeping the stock bore and stroke because from what I understand while most engines are usually either bore-biased (rev-happy) or stroke-biased (better torque), the 3s being a square motor is a good compromise of the two.

I feel that this would be necessary for a 'proper' street engine which is why we made the decisions we did.

PISTONS: ROSS

That's a good point, and highlights why one might prefer a 5S crank (longer stroke) to a 3S crank (shorter stroke). The larger 5S block with a 3S crank will probably be a great high revving platform, whereas the 5SGTE platform is sort of your "torque monster". hehe. And I agree, the 3S/3S is a great compromise for sure. Are you guys overboring at all?

I haven't seen much useful data on piston strength relative to others, so to me seems that you should just choose based on the CR you are looking for.

I like the ATS Stroker pistons for sure at 8.3:1 ($550), I have a bias for lower CR engines. Definitely 8.5:1 or lower.

What CR are Ross available in?

Also, I remember some discussion of the Eagle rods requiring that the 5S crank needed machining to accept them, whereas Pauter for example did not. Can anyone clarify that?

However, Pauter are 2x as expensive...and I suspect, either are fine for our modest 450WHP.

bloodMoney
09-02-2010, 07:21 PM
I don't think that we are going to be doing any overboring. I need to pull the motor apart and see what the cylinder walls look like. I'd like to be able to simply hone it and put it back together.

This is what Ross has on their website, but they do make custom pistons as well.


* Compression Ratio: Based on factory head and gasket
* Forced Induction: Yes
* Nitrous: Yes
* Ring Grooves: 1.5, 1.5, 3.0 mm
* What's Included: Rings, Locks, Pins (H13 Taper Wall Pins)

ENGINE CODE-BORE-STROKE-ROD LGTH-HEAD CC-C.H.-C.R.-GRAM WT.-PART NO.

3SGTE-3.387 ( 86 mm )-3.386-5.428-50.0-1.380-8.5-377-99814
3SGTE-3.406 (86.5 mm)-3.386-5.428-50.0-1.380-8.5-370-99823


I don't know how/why KO has 9:1 compression pistons, but if I can get 8.5:1 pistons I will.

As far as machining the 5s crank, I thought that it was only necessary when mixing the 3s rods with a 5s crank....:huh:

Sang
09-02-2010, 08:19 PM
Yeah..."fantasy", but keeping budget in mind too. Partly want to make a good, realistic roadmap for getting there.

With budget in mind, then I'd do an off the shelf 2.3L from ATS for a street engine, or 2.2L long rod for a race engine. The latter will probably cost about as much as a 2.3L if you can do the math and assembly on your own.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:52 PM ----------




Head

Stock with casting cleaned up and gasket matched. Engle spring with 264's.


Fuel System

Budget: Failbro, bored rail (if gen2), crush FPR, 800-850's at 50psi.
Less Budget: Modifed stock hanger with 044 in-tank, diy tffr, afpr, and 800-850s
Not so Budget: wolfkatz pickup, 044 external, tffr, afpr, 1000cc+

Turbocharger and Intercooling

Budget: 3076, stock manifold
Less Budget: 3076, racerx manifold
Not so budget: HTA3076, racerx manifold

.

ChrisD
09-02-2010, 09:25 PM
^ I agree with the head choices. Not a huge fan of OS valves or port/polish jobs, at least at this power level.

For fuel, one additional option would be the Wolfkatz side feed rail and 850's. I haven't run the numbers, but with 540's comfortable at 325 and maxing at 350ish, I'm assuming that 850's would suffice.

On the turbo - think the 3076 will do it? With enough boost, sure, but at ~20psi for daily maybe not? (at least at the "budget" option, without racerx manifold...back when racerx had his stock exh. manifold, he only did 405whp on the 3076, and he's got pistons at 9.0:1 in his "2.2" stroker I believe. In any case, I was thinking a 3082 could be better sized, and backed off slightly to achieve the goal. Might have to pull some dyno's or look at the compressor map.

ChrisD
09-02-2010, 09:25 PM
^ I agree with the head choices. Not a huge fan of OS valves or port/polish jobs, at least at this power level.

For fuel, one additional option would be the Wolfkatz side feed rail and 850's. I haven't run the numbers, but with 540's comfortable at 325 and maxing at 350ish, I'm assuming that 850's would suffice.

On the turbo - think the 3076 will do it? With enough boost, sure, but at ~20psi for daily maybe not? (at least at the "budget" option, without racerx manifold...back when racerx had his stock exh. manifold, he only did 405whp on the 3076, and he's got pistons at 9.0:1 in his "2.2" stroker I believe. In any case, I was thinking a 3082 could be better sized, and backed off slightly to achieve the goal. Might have to pull some dyno's or look at the compressor map.

Mafix
09-02-2010, 09:37 PM
i disagree with everyone. square bore 9K rpm 3sgte. 450whp means roughy 525 flywheel. no need what so ever for anything fancy.
8.5:1 compression with stock crank
about 28psi on a nice sized twin scroll turbo
ems with COP
decent cams, nothing dramatic needed
stock valves w/ dual springs
1Kcc large bore injectors with dual walbros
42psi base fuel pressure
custom exhaust manifold
dual wastegates
3 inch exhaust
4 inch intake
2.5 intercooler pipes with a nice high density FMIC
that's about it in a nutshell. oddly sounds familiar. if i was a gen 2 guy it'd be over 600. now if money grew on a tree...

i can get stupid detailed if you like! and clevite bearings suck major ass.

---------- Post added at 04:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------

to add to the list. top feed rail. always. sidefeed is horrid for flow and pressure retention.

---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

pistons arias or mahle. i won't touch anything else.
rods eagle h-beam
HG trd, tte, cometic, it really doesn't matter
turbo, if you guys insist on garrett turbos, the 40Rs should do it nicely.

bloodMoney
09-02-2010, 09:42 PM
What bearings do you use? I originally come from a domestic background and we've used clevite with little ill-effects....

This is the first import motor that I'll be building, so I'm all ears! (main reason I'm even attempting to contribute to this thread)

Mafix
09-02-2010, 09:49 PM
eh i'm bored at work so i'll start a dream motor parts list
gen 1 3sgte block
acl race bearings
stock crank
moroso dry sump pan and assorted custom BS needed for drysump
accusump system
eagle h-beams
arias pistons
hellfire rings
complete machining
all new toyota gaskets
ats oil pump
fidanza flyweel

gen 2 gte head
kelford 2-195-x cams middle of the pack duration with well over 10mm lift
1mm OS valves
supertech dual spring, ti retainers
ats spacer
gen 1 GE intake manifold
gen 1 TB w/ ats mr2 inlet
custom twin scroll tubular manifold w/ dual tial mvs gates
cometic 1.5mm HG
arp everything
denso IR plugs
COP
dual PCV valve cover
bullseye s360ish turbo about .80a/r

haltech p2000 ems full setup
custom cold air intake with weapon r foam filter
2.5 intercooler pipes, single tial 50mm BOV
HD FMIC
3" exhaust with nothing but a flex section
precision 1200cc LB top feeds
custom LB dual feed rail
twin walbros with necessary aeromotive bs to plumb and such
that's about it
if 30psi doesn't hit 650 with that then your tuner is fired.

Sang
09-02-2010, 10:33 PM
For fuel, one additional option would be the Wolfkatz side feed rail and 850's.

Doesn't fit into any category. It's nearly 3x the cost of a bored rail and achieves the same goal. SFFR's are junk to begin with, although it sounds bad, but the best analogy for buying the "best" SFFR is much like coming first place at the special olympics.


On the turbo - think the 3076 will do it? With enough boost, sure, but at ~20psi for daily maybe not?

Your first post doesn't specify any details other than a target power goal. So, I elected to choose what I think was the best. Fuel choice, competition arena, et cetera all make a difference on what would be "best"

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-02-2010, 10:55 PM
i disagree with everyone. square bore 9K rpm 3sgte. 450whp means roughy 525 flywheel. no need what so ever for anything fancy.
8.5:1 compression with stock crank
about 28psi on a nice sized twin scroll turbo
ems with COP
decent cams, nothing dramatic needed
stock valves w/ dual springs
1Kcc large bore injectors with dual walbros
42psi base fuel pressure
custom exhaust manifold
dual wastegates
3 inch exhaust
4 inch intake
2.5 intercooler pipes with a nice high density FMIC
that's about it in a nutshell. oddly sounds familiar. if i was a gen 2 guy it'd be over 600. now if money grew on a tree...

no need for
twin scroll
dual wastegates
COP

Twin scroll is more of a personal choice
Dual wastegates waste of money.Single V44 have been known to flow for that kind of power
COP is waste of money,A Single MSD8202 and regular 6a box is more then you will ever need for that kind of number.

Angel

vip09
09-03-2010, 07:11 AM
My old engine pretty much fits the bill for this, but wouldn't call it "fantasy". It was a budget-minded build and was probably making over 400awhp when I broke the last transmission.

HEAD:
HKS 264 cams
ATS Cam Gears
ATS Engle Valve Springs
Everything else STOCK

Block:
5S block @ 87.5mm
ATS Wiseco Stroker pistons
3S Eagle rods
ARP head studs
Cometic head gasket
ACL Bearings

That setup is good for over 500whp and doesn't hurt the wallet too bad.

vip09
09-03-2010, 07:11 AM
My old engine pretty much fits the bill for this, but wouldn't call it "fantasy". It was a budget-minded build and was probably making over 400awhp when I broke the last transmission.

HEAD:
HKS 264 cams
ATS Cam Gears
ATS Engle Valve Springs
Everything else STOCK

Block:
5S block @ 87.5mm
5S crank machined for 3S rods
ATS Wiseco Stroker pistons
3S Eagle rods
ARP head studs
Cometic head gasket
ACL Bearings

That setup is good for over 500whp and doesn't hurt the wallet too bad.

Mafix
09-03-2010, 12:50 PM
i'd rather do it once and be done jdm. no offense of course. and option for twin scroll is to increase spool. twin wastegates is to keep it true twin scroll, nothing more than that. and the COP is for reliable ignition up to 9K rpm. i've been through the MSD bs before. i'm sure it worked fine but i like more control than that.

JDM SNUKUMZ
09-03-2010, 02:29 PM
i'd rather do it once and be done jdm. no offense of course. and option for twin scroll is to increase spool. twin wastegates is to keep it true twin scroll, nothing more than that. and the COP is for reliable ignition up to 9K rpm. i've been through the MSD bs before. i'm sure it worked fine but i like more control than that.

no offense taken.Just saying that the MSD has been proven to work till 700whp.

ChrisD
09-03-2010, 04:08 PM
All good comments guys. Obviously there are a million ways to do it, all with benefits and trade-offs. I'll try to capture everyone's ideas / comments into the first post. There will definitely be compromises.

Sang: good points on the rail. I'm biased b/c I already have a Wolfkatz side-feed rail, which is why I brought it up. lol, special olympics. :D Definitely a pain if you want to upgrade though as side feed injectors are so expensive. Maybe I'll swap over when I cross that bridge...dunno. Probably even save cash while doing it too.

---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

To clarify the definition of "fantasy". I do not mean your "dream", or "all-out" build for the engine. Simply that this is a thought experiment, not an actual build here in reality. All the real-world constraints still exist, such as finite budget, time, availability, etc.

Mafix
09-03-2010, 05:16 PM
wait till you see what will be under my hood, lol!

ravensguildassasin
09-03-2010, 08:10 PM
question and it may seem dumb but i still want to know. can you use the 5s crank pistons and rods in a 3s block? would it work and make it a 2.2? i have two 3sfe engines that is why i ask. please excuse me i am still learning about this engine.

Sang
09-03-2010, 08:26 PM
can you use the 5s crank pistons and rods in a 3s block? would it work and make it a 2.2?

Crank - yes
Pistons - no
Rods - yes
Not quite 2.2L, it'll be 2.139L with a 86.5mm bore.

ravensguildassasin
09-03-2010, 08:48 PM
now could you bore the block to take the 5s pistons or would that be to much for the pore block? im asking because this could be an alternative to buying a new block for some. :D

Sang
09-03-2010, 09:11 PM
Valve reliefs would be wrong for one, and even still you'd have to bore to at least 87mm which is on the latter end of "safe".

Really don't see why you'd want to use them anyway...if you're going to rebuild a block you shouldn't be using stock 5S rods and pistons to begin with. Forged 3S rods cheaper and a few companies make an off the shelf stroker piston.

Mafix
09-03-2010, 09:12 PM
3sf block? use the stock 5s block.

ravensguildassasin
09-03-2010, 09:17 PM
that's the info i need to know. like i said i have two 3sfe engines so i wanted to know some of the options and now there is a record here not to do it. :D i take your opinions very well. i would like to use the 5sfe engine in my car but i am afraid of swaps still.

Luni
09-03-2010, 10:18 PM
My platform would be based on the Gen3 bottom end (windage tray, oil pump, oil pan), and Gen3 head (already fits high lift cams, higher velocity porting) mated to a 5S block.

Id probably bump CR up to 9:0 to 1 (maybe use a Gen4 bottom end and head for that)

Id start there for sure.

ChrisD
09-04-2010, 04:31 PM
That would be a cool setup too. Gen 3 head would be a really nice add.

Mafix
09-04-2010, 05:56 PM
i tend to find in the US gen 2 heads are easy to come by and have tons of support. no so much on gen 3.

Sang
09-05-2010, 06:19 AM
gen3 head doesn't need any support. Cams are interchangeable, and can easily get keflords/gsc's in high lift variety easily. Shims, AFAIK are almost impossible to get without going through a broker in japan that'll take commission but can go shimless. There was some talks that the supertech shimunder bucket shims fit a gen3 bucket, but no confirmation that I know of.

Other than that, the rest of a gen3 head is more than capable of doing a reliable 450whp. Stock manifolds are no problemo and the gen3 rail has a larger bore so drop-in sards is no problem with no other fuel mods except the pump.

Smaay
09-13-2010, 07:05 PM
a GT30R 3076 will easily make that power. and with a nice spool up.

Mafix
10-01-2010, 10:23 PM
also to add to this, just a comment:
if you are putting in an EMS, why not go COP at that point? it's only 4 wires and 4 coils. so that's a couple hundred bucks more.