PDA

View Full Version : Chaos Evolution: Turbo?



Murgatroy
06-10-2010, 04:10 PM
I have tried keeping this a secret for a while, but I realized that I just don't know enough about what I want to do to keep this a secret.

Chaos wants boost.

Chaos is a `90 ST, early model 4AFE. Automatic tranny.

I don't want to go fast. Fast is not what Chaos is about. Holding a steady speed is her gig. I want a turbo to help her get to that steady speed faster.

I am thinking ~5psi would be more than enough for what I want. If she can get ~25-30 usable HP in the middle to high RPM range, I am more than happy.

Chaos' powerband is ~4000RPM to 6000RPM, and she runs like a raped ape in that range.

If possible I would like a turbo that could make use of the lower RPM, with a fast spool time, that would bring her powerband a little lower, maybe 3000RPM, while still breathing enough to 6000RPM where her powerband ends.

This would still retain her stock 4AFE, which frankly, I don't want to mod. I don't want to replace. I don't want to blow it up either. I will retain use of her automatic transmission as well. Quick secret about me, my left hip is crippled, and while shifting doesn't bother me, there are times that my leg will cramp up, and frankly, I am getting lazy in my old age.

I have been browsing eBay and some Corolla forums to get some ideas, and well, it seems the turbo 4AFE is not popular, and when it is, it is not done right. I can count on one hand the number I have seen that still run, including 7AFE mods.

With all of this said, I know absolutely nothing about turbos. I understand the concept and what parts do what. However, I have no idea of what sizes, or settings would be ideal (not that I think many do when it comes to the 4AFE.)

This will be documented, and I would like to use it as a primer of sorts as a new option for ST owners.

Let's discuss the theory right now.

What size turbo would I be looking toward?

What are the faults with an eBay turbo kit?

If I were to start with an eBay turbo kit for the base parts, what should I replace?

How do I set a very conservative base tune to keep from blowing my freak 4AFE up the first time I boost?

Is $1500 a reasonable estimate to get started, before fine tuning?





Now, with all that said.

No, I am not going to swap. No, I do not want a 3SGTE. No, I do not want a 4AGE, 4AGZE or some frankenstein hybrid thereof.

Chaos means a lot to me, and I like to think she means a lot to the community. I would like to see this done right, not only for her, but for anyone else that sees her as the spokescar for the unloved ST.

cms-gt4
06-10-2010, 04:50 PM
Are there any oem toyota turbo manifolds that bolt up to your engine? If so, that can simplify things greatly.

Murgatroy
06-10-2010, 05:00 PM
Sadly not that I know of. The A series never cam factory turbo.

I have found a dozen different styles of log and tubular manifolds, most with a T3 type flange. Most of those come in eBay kits though.

I am leaning toward the kit as it comes with the turbo manifold, heat shield, IC, the IC piping, the blow-off valve, the wastegate, a turbo timer and a cheap turbo. I plan on replacing the turbo with something that suits me needs more closely though. The more inexpensive kits don't include any type of tuning device or injectors, and the kits that do include these run $2000+. The lower end ones like I mentioned run around $600.

pitcelica
06-10-2010, 05:28 PM
Any cheapo t3-t4 ebay turbo will be too big your your application and you will have a lot of lag. You will need to find somewhere they are selling some little turbos like GT25-GT28 sizes. When I'll be home, I'll try to put some number in a excel spreadsheet I have to find the best turbo for a specific engine (basically, I've computed the formulas found on the Garrett website).

I'll come back to you.

Sam

vip09
06-10-2010, 05:34 PM
T25 from a 2G Eclipse would probably work good.

bloodMoney
06-10-2010, 05:45 PM
^+1

Either a T25 or a 14b will suit your needs well. The best part is that they can be had for cheap. As with any project, the thing that's going to kill you is all the nickel and dime crap that no one thinks about now....

Murgatroy
06-10-2010, 05:49 PM
^+1

Either a T25 or a 14b will suit your needs well. The best part is that they can be had for cheap. As with any project, the thing that's going to kill you is all the nickel and dime crap that no one thinks about now....

Exactly, that is why I am leaning toward a 'kit' then selling off the crap I don't need and adding the pieces I do need from a quality maker. This way the nickel and dime parts are fewer and easier to identify.

ChrisD
06-10-2010, 06:01 PM
So if you're thinking a kit like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-4AFE-T3T4-Turbo-Charger-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5192d6d2baQQitemZ35035 5903162QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

Gives you an ok start. Personally, I might be more inclined to collect the parts individually, but that's me.

Things you'd need to gather above the ebay kit:

-Oil & coolant lines and fittings
-Injectors
-Injector control of come kind
-Fuel pressure regulator (maybe?...what sort of FPR does the 4afe have?)
-Wideband
-Timing controller
-Turbo of your choice
-Looks like you'd have to get some exhaust welding done for that downpipe (no flange at the bottom)

The IC is kinda small, but for 5psi could probably get the job done.

Anyone know other specs on the 4afe? Like compression ratio and such.

Mafix
06-10-2010, 06:06 PM
i would look at the "g" head first. perhaps even a 20v swap.
when running that small of a motor the secret is in the rpm not the power level.

Murgatroy
06-10-2010, 06:13 PM
So if you're thinking a kit like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-4AFE-T3T4-Turbo-Charger-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5192d6d2baQQitemZ35035 5903162QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

Gives you an ok start. Personally, I might be more inclined to collect the parts individually, but that's me.

Things you'd need to gather above the ebay kit:

-Oil & coolant lines and fittings
-Injectors
-Injector control of come kind
-Fuel pressure regulator (maybe?...what sort of FPR does the 4afe have?)
-Wideband
-Timing controller
-Turbo of your choice
-Looks like you'd have to get some exhaust welding done for that downpipe (no flange at the bottom)

The IC is kinda small, but for 5psi could probably get the job done.

Anyone know other specs on the 4afe? Like compression ratio and such.
That is pretty much the exact kit I am looking at.

What all does a SAFC offer? Does it have anything to do with timing? Is it just for the injectors?

i would look at the "g" head first. perhaps even a 20v swap.
when running that small of a motor the secret is in the rpm not the power level.

That would be an option, but it is not one I want to pursue. I would prefer to do a 'simplified' bolt on kit. Something that will be tried and proven that any kid who wants to add some power to his car can do. Something off the shelf with no special order or hard to find parts, so to speak.

I know that it is not the 'easiest' way to get power gains, but it seems to be the easier to duplicate.

Where Chaos likes to play, her issues isn't so much getting into her powerband or staying there, it is getting the RPMs up when she is winded in the mountains. I think a couple of horsepower from a small turbo would get her there. I might be thinking of it from the wrong angle, and just being blinded and wanting a turbo, and I think that is part of it. Just like it will be for anyone that follows these steps.

bloodMoney
06-10-2010, 06:13 PM
So if you're thinking a kit like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-4AFE-T3T4-Turbo-Charger-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5192d6d2baQQitemZ35035 5903162QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

Gives you an ok start. Personally, I might be more inclined to collect the parts individually, but that's me.

Things you'd need to gather above the ebay kit:

-Oil & coolant lines and fittings
-Injectors
-Injector control of come kind
-Fuel pressure regulator (maybe?...what sort of FPR does the 4afe have?)
-Wideband
-Timing controller
-Turbo of your choice
-Looks like you'd have to get some exhaust welding done for that downpipe (no flange at the bottom)


This is the BIG problem with this kit. A .63A/R turbine is HUGE for a little 4a... Honestly, The kit does look like a good place to start for 600 bucks.

T-spoon
06-10-2010, 06:38 PM
I dunno, the more I look at that kit, the more worthless I think it would be. Since the turbo wouldn't be used for this application, you're really paying a lot for universal IC piping, a manifold and a somewhat "meh" intercooler, plus some other odds and ends like the turbo timer which is something you'd want to pick out yourself for the price you wanted anyway, and not integral to the original job. The hose clamps are junk and the filter is just any old filter you get from Autozone. I dunno, kit SOUNDS like a good idea, but then in practice - especially in this case where the goals are very particular - I don't really think it's going to work.

Murg, I am a hardcore turbo lover, but with what you've said in the past and even in this thread.. I don't know that you really do want to go through turbo-ing that particular car. Adding even 5 psi.. there are no guaranties at all that you don't end up blowing that motor after having it down a while and spending money to add the turbo.

vip09
06-10-2010, 06:49 PM
To be honest Murg, a 20v swap would probably be cheaper, easier, more reliable, and probably would be faster.

Even after you go through all the trouble of getting a turbo setup on the car, you will still need a way to tune it since the 4AFE ecu has no idea what boost is. You will need a wideband for sure, and an SAFC (if it even works with your ecu) or some other piggyback device.

As much as I hate on the 20v, I think it might be the right choice here.

Murgatroy
06-10-2010, 07:02 PM
To be honest Murg, a 20v swap would probably be cheaper, easier, more reliable, and probably would be faster.

Even after you go through all the trouble of getting a turbo setup on the car, you will still need a way to tune it since the 4AFE ecu has no idea what boost is. You will need a wideband for sure, and an SAFC (if it even works with your ecu) or some other piggyback device.

As much as I hate on the 20v, I think it might be the right choice here.

The downtime is a major downside to that for me. I don't have a garage to store Chaos while I do that, or to do the work at. I have some friends where I could spend the weekend with Chaos apart, but not a place to leave her for a couple of weeks. The initial cost of the 20v is also prohibitive. Where I can buy a $600 turbo kit, then a month later buy a $200 turbo, then a month later buy another piece, it becomes less cost prohibitive, and more wife friendly than dropping $1500 on a motor set, then a month later dropping $500 more on assorted pieces needed to facilitate a swap.

I like the idea, and the sound of a 20v, or even more absurd a 2ZZGE, but doing a swap is beyond my means right now. And, I am stubbornly want to retain Chaos' factory 4AFE until it breathes no more. The engine is a beast for what it is, and I want to champion the 4AFE, no matter how logically wrong it may be.

Yes, I am willing to accept that I may be going the wrong route for power. I understand that there are easier, more sensible and more reliable routes for what I want.

However, I also don't want to bullheadedly blow her up either. So that is something else I am considering in this path.

Luni
06-10-2010, 07:58 PM
Well, I think youre a retard, but I also think if you want to boost it, you are just going to have to do a similiar setup the 5S guys do and scale it down.

So for example, a 5SFE guy is going to need some way to tune his shizz. Hes going to need a 2bar map sensor, and some 440cc injectors.

So for you, the rule of thumb is, get a 2bar map sensor, get an SAFC or something to fine tune stuff, get a wideband AFR gauge, retard your timing 2 degrees base. And get double the injector you currently have and start with that.

Murgatroy
06-10-2010, 08:06 PM
Well, I think youre a retard, but I also think if you want to boost it, you are just going to have to do a similiar setup the 5S guys do and scale it down.

So for example, a 5SFE guy is going to need some way to tune his shizz. Hes going to need a 2bar map sensor, and some 440cc injectors.

So for you, the rule of thumb is, get a 2bar map sensor, get an SAFC or something to fine tune stuff, get a wideband AFR gauge, retard your timing 2 degrees base. And get double the injector you currently have and start with that.

Now that is the constructive criticism I am looking for!

pinoyGT4
06-10-2010, 08:16 PM
hmmm.. you really want to boost her?

ok to boost her.. maybe CT9 or CT12 is good? they came from 2e-telu and 4efte iirc.. :D

if you want to give her power and make her scream 9,000rpms N/A.. i think i can give some ideas.. :D

Mafix
06-10-2010, 08:30 PM
you can swap a 20v in 4 hours murg. and it's more power, more reliable, and it's in every rpm range.
if you must turbo it, i don't see the stock motor lasting that long.

Murgatroy
06-10-2010, 08:38 PM
you can swap a 20v in 4 hours murg. and it's more power, more reliable, and it's in every rpm range.
if you must turbo it, i don't see the stock motor lasting that long.

You have a very valid point. And something I am taking into consideration. Chaos' engine does have nearly 230k on the clock.

The price difference is what gets me, but it is arguably similar.

Luni
06-10-2010, 09:20 PM
I also think you need to address transmission cooling in some capacity. Your little auto tranny is gonna eat shit if you start doing too much more to it.

pinoyGT4
06-11-2010, 02:37 AM
You have a very valid point. And something I am taking into consideration. Chaos' engine does have nearly 230k on the clock.

The price difference is what gets me, but it is arguably similar.

yeah and plus the fact that 20v parts are fairly easy to find.. :biggthumpup:

Night_Wolf
06-11-2010, 03:24 AM
How bout a TD05 like they used in the old starions and conquests! They're realativly small and give ya some pull.

pitcelica
06-11-2010, 03:48 AM
I've run my calculations and I've narrowed down a nice turbo for your application : GT2560R.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2560R_466541_1.htm

This turbo was OEM on the Nissan SR20DET. I know that a lot of SR20 guys are swapping the OEM turbo for a GT28RS like we are doing whe swapping a CT26 to a CT20b. I'm sure you can find a good used GT2560R turbo for low $$$ on a SR20 forum.

The turbine outlet flange looks like a standard 5 bolt downpipe flange and the turbine inlet flange is a standard T25. So, buy that 600$ ebay kit, cut the T3 flange on the manifold and weld a T25 one. Buy a SR20 downpipe and modify it to fit your mid-pipe. Buy a wideband, a fuel controller + injectors and/or a fuel pressure regulator and a walbro fuel pump. Then you're set.

Hope to help you!

Sam

METDeath
06-11-2010, 04:48 AM
Jaz told me about this thread, and after reading it all here's my thinking:

Get the generic 7A turbo manifold, have it modified to fit a small turbo, like the ones mentioned above, with the turbo make sure you cut the waste gate spring. It will take time and patience, but will give you lower "stock" boost.

Then Double your injector size (not sure on stock, but go double), get a 2bar map sensor
get something that flat out controls fuel (AEM FI/C or similar). I know presure2 had issues with getting his eManage with AFRs or some such, I really can't recall, it's been about two years since I reread his thread.

Then go buy a tiny intercooler, and a second trans cooler.

As for the more technical parts of the tuning, I can't help, I know Smaay has worked with the AEM FI/C, so that's a thought. If your transmission starts slipping all over the place then maybe get an auto trans from a 1ZZ?


Ooooor, you could just spray a 25 shot and be done have to fill bottles, which I'm sure you've done before, just not that small of a shot.

vip09
06-11-2010, 04:54 AM
Murg, you can get a 20v silvertop engine for $600 easy.

pinoyGT4
06-11-2010, 11:31 AM
you can use a c56 tranny if yours dies somewhere along the road.. :D

Cavanagh
06-11-2010, 01:06 PM
I'm more concerned about your 4A auto transmission then I am your motor to be honest. I
"feel" that any more power put through them that they will blow. My ST only had 119,xxx and I felt like this.

v8killer
06-14-2010, 05:57 PM
junk yard t3 off a saab, 6 psi and a nice piggy back fuel/timing controller with an fpr will get you the reliability- its all in the tunning. anything over 6-7 psi on that engine well thats bad. but really the "stresses" of boost are damn near zero at sub 7.5 psi. your BMEP will go up but not close to critical for that engine. not to mention that the maximum cylinder pressure will be not at just after tdc but at about the point where the rod and crank make a 90degree angle making the power through a wider spread power stroke. leave the cams as they are no need to try to change any timing on them either. when you tune tune safe not for max power. as for the ic u can go bigger than u would expect u can't go wrong there.

oh and +1 on the trans

Hookecho
07-14-2010, 03:01 AM
So what have you decided to do?

Luckynumber5
07-22-2010, 06:17 PM
The auto transmission will gold around 200 horsepower just fine. It will need a nice oil cooler and a kickdown cable adjustment, but thats stuff you should do anyway.

This advice comes from my personal experience putting together a turbo 4afe STX I used to own.

1. Prepare for a vacuum line nightmare, the car has several system that are fully vacuum controlled, this will mean boost leaks from all the connectors that are only meant to hold a vacuum.

2. Prepare for a tuning nightmare, the factory ecu hates everything. I ran a 3sgte map with 3sgte injectors which should jsut mean some basic fueling adjustments with an safc and it ran ok, not great, and not bad. Just ok.

Grab a 4afe turbo manifold with a t3 flange and get you an old IHI turbocharger for $1-$200, they spool fast and are easy to control. Noit to mention most are water cooled which is always a plus. I had an RHB52w off a later model Thunderturn turbocoupe and I could brake boost and spool it off the line, awesome little bugger.

Luckynumber5
07-22-2010, 06:17 PM
The auto transmission will hold around 200 horsepower just fine. It will need a nice oil cooler and a kickdown cable adjustment, but thats stuff you should do anyway.

This advice comes from my personal experience putting together a turbo 4afe STX I used to own.

1. Prepare for a vacuum line nightmare, the car has several system that are fully vacuum controlled, this will mean boost leaks from all the connectors that are only meant to hold a vacuum.

2. Prepare for a tuning nightmare, the factory ecu hates everything. I ran a 3sgte map with 3sgte injectors which should jsut mean some basic fueling adjustments with an safc and it ran ok, not great, and not bad. Just ok.

Grab a 4afe turbo manifold with a t3 flange and get you an old IHI turbocharger for $1-$200, they spool fast and are easy to control. Noit to mention most are water cooled which is always a plus. I had an RHB52w off a later model Thunderturn turbocoupe and I could brake boost and spool it off the line, awesome little bugger.