PDA

View Full Version : aftermarket ignition systems



not12listen
05-29-2010, 06:36 PM
so, in the endless pursuit of improving my cars, i have done a bit of reading on aftermarket ignition systems.

MSD ignition systems are very hit or miss. either they work wonderfully, or they fail for no apparent reason.

i did a search for 'aftermarket ignition systems' on google and this came up.

http://shop.edoperformance.com/okada-projects-plasma-booster-3sgte-p-12489.html

i've only done basic reading on it. it APPEARS to be the same technique that MSD is using. unfortunately, no conclusive reviews have been posted/written.

some guy on the Supra Forums helped install in on a friend's Jeep, and it 'felt smoother' was the only reply. the dyno testing that was done by Import Tuner (link below) demonstrates more power over the whole powerband. this is nice and all, but i also want to know if it impact emissions at all...

http://www.importtuner.com/reviews/parts/0709_impp_okada_performance_ignition_coils/index.html

anywho... just food for thought. :)

85gtsblackman
06-02-2010, 08:12 AM
i think grayscale is runnin msd stuff

Funkycheeze
06-02-2010, 06:09 PM
If you want to keep using the stock distributor, a 'booster' like an HKS twinpower can do the trick.

I'm not familiar enough with the 3S to propose options to go destributorless, but there are several stand-alone and 'booster' options avaliable if you go that route. the HKS DLI unit can be used with a stock or stock-style transistorized distributorless ignitor, or a CDI system like the AEM C2DI can be used on its own. Oviously you would need to move to a standalone ECU that is able to supply the correct ignition signalling.

not12listen
06-03-2010, 05:01 AM
i'm not looking to go with a DLI setup. i just want to improve the factory setup, and something like the MSD or Okada seems to suit the bill.

i'm curious how it impacts (positively or negatively) emissions though.

Shadowlife25
06-03-2010, 05:29 AM
It would have no effect on your passing or failing emissions, as your ignition system is not involved in the testing they do.

If any of them do perform as advertised, you should at least get a better burn.

not12listen
06-03-2010, 05:34 AM
that was exactly my thought... if you DO get a better, more complete burn, then you would have less unburnt fuel being emitted - which would mean less NOx or CO2.

does that sound logical? or am i smoking the giant crack pipe?

Funkycheeze
06-03-2010, 05:39 AM
The 'baisc' HKS unit is for transistorized, distributed systems like the 3SGTE gen 1-3, so that would be an option.

the DLI twinpower would only be if you went distributorless.

I don't think it would have any effect on emissions, as the more powerful spark only matters during higher power output regimes.

not12listen
06-03-2010, 05:43 AM
ok... but, with a system like MSD or Okada, they perform multiple spark discharges to burn the rest of the fuel/air mixture that is still in the cylinder after the initial spark discharge.

and THAT is what i am looking for. :) but, before i drop $250 per unit, i want to make sure that it is a wise investment. also that it will not negatively effect my emissions... California is pretty picky about that kinda thing. :)

CriScO
06-03-2010, 07:59 AM
ok... but, with a system like MSD or Okada, they perform multiple spark discharges to burn the rest of the fuel/air mixture that is still in the cylinder after the initial spark discharge.

and THAT is what i am looking for. :) but, before i drop $250 per unit, i want to make sure that it is a wise investment. also that it will not negatively effect my emissions... California is pretty picky about that kinda thing. :)
Basic MSD boxes(6 series) are CARB compliant and come with the stickers to prove it, as I recall. I know for sure the coil did.

CriScO
06-03-2010, 08:07 AM
It would have no effect on your passing or failing emissions, as your ignition system is not involved in the testing they do.
That statement isn't completely true. They may not test your ignition, but it obviously plays a HUGE role in what comes out of the exhaust. If you're not burning efficiently unburned fuel makes numbers jump on the tailpipe sniffer. So modifying the ignition can change things, for better or worse.

Sorry to keep arguing with you lately bro, I know you know all of this, I just didn't like the wording.

Shadowlife25
06-03-2010, 10:29 AM
I understand Crisco ;)
I was only stating that they do not during the CA SMOG2 testing do anything involving the ignition system.

I agree that the benefits of a high performing ignition setup or even a properly working and maintained stock setup are quantifiable.
As I said, if they do what the advertise and are truly better than stock, the difference should be noticeable.
Whether in the form of a cleaner burn(higher temps) a more complete burn, better response in the form of a more stable idle rpm, less emissions during testing...
So basically, if you feel that spending the cash on it will honestly DO anything for you beyond a good stock system, go for it. :)

Funkycheeze
06-03-2010, 04:01 PM
IMHO, once the initial spark has initiated combustion, any additional sparking will have a negligible effect so close to the initial combustion event. Newer cars will fire multiple times, but usually quite awhile after the initial spark, up to 90 degrees of crank rotatin after, and usually at 360 deg after as a waste spark as well.

The most important thing is to ensure that initial spark is very strong.

But then, I'm not exactly in the business of making my car fuel efficient or environmentally friendly, and my economical DD doesn't even have spark plugs.

not12listen
06-03-2010, 04:19 PM
IMHO, once the initial spark has initiated combustion, any additional sparking will have a negligible effect so close to the initial combustion event. Newer cars will fire multiple times, but usually quite awhile after the initial spark, up to 90 degrees of crank rotatin after, and usually at 360 deg after as a waste spark as well.

The most important thing is to ensure that initial spark is very strong.

But then, I'm not exactly in the business of making my car fuel efficient or environmentally friendly, and my economical DD doesn't even have spark plugs.

trust me... i'm not looking to make the world a better place with my emissions either. :) if i were, i wouldn't be putting a 3SGE into an AW11... i'd be out saving my pennies and (idiotically) buying a hybrid.

i just do not want the hassle of failing smog, then having to tinker with bits here and there to get it to pass. i want it to pass and for the state to leave me the hell alone.

as per the reading i've done on the Okada device, it has a prolonged spark time. i believe it was 20 degrees of crank timing, or something like that... now, i also do not recall exactly if that is a single spark or the multiple sparks.

gotta re-read the article. :)

so... in short, the point of this is get my ignition system to the point where is it igniting all of the air/fuel mixture within the cylinder and giving me the best tailpipe results so the smog tech just says "you've passed" and i drive away and go my local canyon run and burn through 1/2 tank in 30 miles. :)


Basic MSD boxes(6 series) are CARB compliant and come with the stickers to prove it, as I recall. I know for sure the coil did.

i'm going to have to look into those... :) if it does what i'm looking for, then i'll drop the $ and get one.

Funkycheeze
06-03-2010, 07:03 PM
I seriously doubt that an aftermarket ignition box will make the difference over a properly functioning and tuned stock ignition system when it comes to passing smog.

Just my 2 cents though.

CriScO
06-03-2010, 08:40 PM
I seriously doubt that an aftermarket ignition box will make the difference over a properly functioning and tuned stock ignition system when it comes to passing smog.

Just my 2 cents though.
No one is really arguing that point with you. The only thing we're trying to get accross is that it shouldn't make emissions worse.

karl
06-03-2010, 10:38 PM
as per the reading i've done on the Okada device, it has a prolonged spark time. i believe it was 20 degrees of crank timing, or something like that... now, i also do not recall exactly if that is a single spark or the multiple sparks.


honestly, i think a lot of these systems are marketed toward people with little to no understanding of electricity and how electrons flow.

it must have been multiple sparks in the case of the article you're mentioning, since there is no way that the ignition box will provide higher current AND longer duration without drastically increasing the energy dumped through the coil primary.


The Okada Project Plasma Direct system requires no splicing or cutting into stock wiring; Simply replacing the stock coil with the Plasma Direct system and re-plugging the harness wires onto the new unit is a simple one-two process.

this makes me cringe.

basically, the "amplifier" incorporated into the coil somehow takes the same amounf of energy as the stock coil (since it's being driven by the same igniter) and magically produces more current at the spark gap over a longer duration? ohms law dictates that this is only possible with a reduction in voltage proportional to the increase in current. the problem is that the voltage of the secondary is dependent solely on the dielectric properties of the spark gap, not the ignition amplifier/driver/coil.

i really try to take magazine reviews of products in general with huge gains of thalt. the writers of said articles usually don't have the technical knowledge to understand how the parts they're reviewing actually work, and more often than not the article is an advertisement for the product rather than an in-depth review of how it works.

i'd link to the article on the pulsestar spark plugs as an example, but i'm too sick to bother digging it up.

Shadowlife25
06-03-2010, 11:23 PM
Very true Karl.

On the topic of the PulseStar plugs.... :ugh: and right about $300 iirc. sad

klapa
06-04-2010, 12:05 AM
I have a very "bad" experience with CA emissions - dating from the mid-1980's - I'm sure they are worse now.

I moved from Atlanta, Ga. to Santa Clara Ca. in 1985. I had a 1967 Plymouth GTX with a "nearly factory stock" 426 Hemi engine.

I had stock intake (dual four barrell) and cast iron exhaust manifolds, stock part number cards front and rear, stock exhaust (H-Pipe), and even stock mufflers.

I could NEVER get these CA A-Holes to give me my registration - because I did not pass the "visual inspection". The reason was that the original engine had heat tubes that bolted to flanges fore and aft of the manifold heat control valve on the passenger side exhaust manifold - these tubes routed exhaust through the intake manifold in the "cold-start" condition to heat up the air mixture. Unfortunately for me - everybody seemed to have discarded these items and thus I could not ever find them.

Whether or not my car would have passed the "specs" for its type in CA. - or the emissions for such a car - never really mattered for these bureaucrats - and regardless of my spending ~$500 (1985 dollars) I never got my CA plates. I just ran Georgia plates the whole time I was there - which it was rather "odd" I was able to do that because I was never questioned about it - while here in NC if you run out of state plates for over three months you WILL get a ticket - the local cops here notice things like that.

California is a great place - yet I must say it is not for everybody. I was never happier than the day I looked at Santa Cara in my rearview mirror.