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WhiteEightBall
03-23-2010, 08:34 PM
Long story short, I threw 2 rods. Did no damage. It's rebuildable. Unfortunately, not the previous owner, but the asshat before him tried 'modfying' the car. FMIC, Manual Boost Controller, Manual Cooling Fans, Manual oil pump, 3" piping all around and a crapily rear mounted battery. The dickhole didn't run it through the car, but decided it was a good idea to drill a hole under the rear hatch area to do it. Don't ask me wtf.

All I know is that I wanted to return this beutiful car to it's former glory, and probably better. I am also going to assume that the guy raped the ECU in some fashion. I bought the car regularly running between 15-18 psi. I blew it up at 22 psi at overboost this late december.

Not to say that I want stock power or anything. I am looking to rally-x, auto-x and track the car regularly. So I'm thinking around 250-350 whp. Maybe further down the road if I ever build a dedicated rally car, I'll jump this baby up to 400 whp. But I can wait for now.

I'm not sure I want to go through the hasle of rebuilding the 1st gen 3s. I've taken note that parts are hard to come by if not impossible, that and rebuilding this mess would be a task unto it's own.

I have currently found the following motors available:

- Two ST165 w/o ECU (Venus Auto) $500
- ST185 w/ECU and Trans (Venus Auto) $1000
- ST205 w/ECU w/o Trans (Venus Auto) $1500
- ST205 w/ECU and Trans (JSpecAuto.com) $1995

What are your thoughts?

I wish I could say money is no issue, but it is. It's a huge issue. The bigger issue though, is that I want this car done RIGHT. Everything in me is telling me to get the 205 w/ECU from Venus.

I need opinions and discussion here.

Thanks guys.

The Captain
03-24-2010, 12:04 AM
The 205 trans is well worth the extra $500. Save your pennies.

CriScO
03-24-2010, 05:25 AM
The 205 trans is well worth the extra $500. Save your pennies.
^ This.

WhiteEightBall
03-24-2010, 04:20 PM
I've been seeing the customizability of the 3rd gen isn't as good as the 2nd gen. What's up with that?

CriScO
03-24-2010, 05:26 PM
Parts are a bit more difficult to source since the motor wasn't originally available in the US.

WhiteEightBall
03-24-2010, 05:40 PM
hahaha Duh. Why'd I even ask that question. hahaha

Thanks for answering that though.

Mostly sourced parts would have to come from elsewhere in that case, like Canada and over the pond?

CriScO
03-24-2010, 05:56 PM
They are just now being imported into Canada, so overseas is still the best bet.

ChrisD
03-24-2010, 06:24 PM
Yeah, in general, dealerships won't even look at a car if it is right hand drive.

RedRkt01
03-25-2010, 01:28 PM
The 205 trans is well worth the extra $500. Save your pennies.

I am the self proclaimed poster boy for doing things right and getting downright anal about it. Gof for the 205 with tranny.

v8killer
03-25-2010, 03:29 PM
lol ya get the entire swap, get whatever bottom end bits you choose, then sell that ct26c2 (ct20b) and get a real turbo. thats the best way to go about the engine works more or less

WhiteEightBall
03-30-2010, 11:44 PM
Is the 205 safely capable of 350-400 whp?

Also, I found a ST215 out of an 04 caldina w/ecu and trans.

What's the verdict there?

4thgenceli
03-31-2010, 12:04 AM
Is the 205 safely capable of 350-400 whp?

Also, I found a ST215 out of an 04 caldina w/ecu and trans.

What's the verdict there?
No for the 205 holding that much power. The 3rd gen block is weaker. It can do it, but know you will damage it. The 215 block is a bit stronger, but if you're looking for that much power go with a later generation 5sfe block.

WhiteEightBall
03-31-2010, 03:25 AM
Serious modification will be needed all over the engine bay wouldn't it?

4thgenceli
03-31-2010, 04:00 AM
For what?

Not sure I follow you on that.

Mafix
03-31-2010, 04:06 AM
manual oil pump???

WhiteEightBall
03-31-2010, 04:14 AM
For what?

Not sure I follow you on that.
Not 100% exactly sure. I remember reading elsewhere on the site that serious modification the bottom end and the trans tunnel were needed to accomidate the 5s block.

Also, pretty much to build a 5sgte, it's the 5s-fe block with a 3sgte head right? I'm just making sure I understand all of this.


manual oil pump???

uh... ... yea. Have to turn the ignition to acc, flip a switch to turn on the oil pump, and then start the car. It wont start otherwise because oil isn't being circulated. lame. I know.

4thgenceli
03-31-2010, 05:26 AM
I do not know what needs to be done for the 5sfe block w/ the 3sgte head.

I'm still lost on the oil pump... using the 5sfe block you need to have a manual oil pump? It isn't driven via the T-belt?

WhiteEightBall
03-31-2010, 12:45 PM
I do not know what needs to be done for the 5sfe block w/ the 3sgte head.
Well, time to go do me some learnin.


I'm still lost on the oil pump... using the 5sfe block you need to have a manual oil pump? It isn't driven via the T-belt?
No no no. hahaha. Mafix was asking about it, so I explained it. There is currently an electric pump on the 1st gen 3sgte that is in the car and that is what I had to do to start the car.

All of my current issues with the car, I am going to fix once I have the money together to really make a descision of what I am doing all together.

Mafix
03-31-2010, 04:41 PM
ok post a pic of said oil pump. i do believe you are mistaken.

CriScO
04-01-2010, 06:40 AM
5S=Bored out 3S.

ATS_Scott
04-03-2010, 12:53 AM
5S=Bored out 3S.
Yes, but that's not all. The 5s is a larger bore than 3s standard, 86mm for 3s and 87mm for 5s. The 5s block has much thicker cylinder walls, more closed off deck (be careful what HG you use), and you have to grind a LOT off the side of the block to fit a transfer case. Later 5S blocks 98+ are also reinforced around the head bolt nearest the water pump. You can install any 3s head on any 5s block, but you will have to pay careful attention to the HG and coolant passages, especially if your using a gen3 head.

There are a lot of gen3 parts available, and if your doing a 5s block you won't need any of the stuff that is harder to get like oil pumps, water pumps etc...

5s blocks also require 5s oil coolers, and 5s hard pipes off the water pump.
Use a 3s or 5s oil pump, either will work well, and a 5s water pump. You will want the 3s oil pump drive gear, and then you can use a gen2 timing belt.

CriScO
04-05-2010, 05:52 AM
Hm, I wasn't aware the outside was that different. Now that you mention it though, I recall Bugs having to grind the block to acommodate the transfer case on one cast for the 3S-GE as well.

That's why I'd probably just buy one from you guys if I ever needed it. ;)

Shadowlife25
04-05-2010, 12:24 PM
Awesome to see the ATS crew in here! :D

Great info as well.

4thgenceli
04-05-2010, 03:34 PM
:i'm with stupid:

I've never heard of an electric oil pump on a 3s motor... unless it's crazy ghetto rigged up.

Mafix
04-05-2010, 03:48 PM
the only thing i can imagine is a dry sump setup but...i doubt it. and he said MANUAL oil pump, lol. crank faster!!!

WhiteEightBall
04-22-2010, 08:31 PM
Mafix, I'll get to you about the pump probably within the end of the month.

Also, I was tinkering around in there, It's just really weird. The pump I mean. It is exactly how I say, I'll probably have to get you some video and show you rather than pictures. Before attempting to start the car, I need to turn the key to the acc, flip the switch; from what I was told it is the oil pump, and then start the car. When I don't flip the switch, it doesn't start.

BUT, when I do flip it, it makes the whining noise extremely similar to that of a fuel pump, which would also not make any sense imo, but is probably a better explanation.

Hopefully some time next week when the 215 comes in, I'll get this for you. I've got too much going on right now with college papers being due and the likes.

MrMcQuacker
04-25-2010, 09:54 PM
i got me one of these :)

WhiteEightBall
09-26-2010, 07:45 PM
Mafix. You were right. Fuel pump. Stupid set up.

Anyway.

Got the motor out. Was getting ready to put the 215 in and I find that the flywheel AND flywheel bolts on the 215 are not there.....

The 165 Flywheel looks like it can be used, but the stocker bolts cannot be, they are too small.

Can anyone think of a solution for this?

RedRkt01
09-27-2010, 09:46 PM
1995 SW20 bolts will work with the ST215 crank. P/N 90105-12187. The 1995 SW20 flywheel is the same as the ST215 flywheel, hence the bolts.....

The flywheel for both engines is P/N 13405-74080.

Sirscrtm on at.net is parting out all kinds of SW20 parts. He might have that flywheel.

Enjoy!

schnee
09-29-2010, 02:52 PM
All "S" blocks from the "BEAMS" onward are beefed up, they are known as "thick blocks" here.
The problem was cracking above the water pump, esp in bored motors producing 300hp or more
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/crack218.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/crack219.jpg

I'd like to know which bolts and flywheel are used on the 8 bolt 3SFE and 5SFE cranks?

The fuel pump switch mod is pretty common and a good way to keep your wheels from being stolen.

RedRkt01
09-29-2010, 03:19 PM
Kev, you looking for a part number?

schnee
09-29-2010, 03:25 PM
No - I can't afford new parts:mad:

Just want to confirm if they used the the gen1 pattern/bolts or the gen2-> style

WhiteEightBall
10-06-2010, 09:20 PM
I've heard the flywheel and bolts on the scion tC are the same. Is this true?

RedRkt01
10-06-2010, 10:06 PM
I've heard the flywheel and bolts on the scion tC are the same. Is this true?

To this I reply with my reply:
1995 SW20 bolts will work with the ST215 crank. P/N 90105-12187. The 1995 SW20 flywheel is the same as the ST215 flywheel, hence the bolts.....

The flywheel for both engines is P/N 13405-74080.

Sirscrtm on at.net is parting out all kinds of SW20 parts. He might have that flywheel.

Enjoy!

ericfragola
10-17-2010, 09:39 AM
just throwin it out there that i have two 165 ecus and a 165 tranny. :)

v8killer
11-03-2010, 08:23 AM
OMFG do we really have to get into the whole block strength issue?? show me real f'n proof just cuz ur tune destroyed itself at 300 hp menas nothing stop trying to scare ppl about gen3 supposed weakness i happen to work for a crw and if u cracked ur damn block its because u didnt tune it right or the weather ur in requires proper "handling" as most cars do. the gen1 3sgte block can easily do 500 awhp, its the weakest. the gen2 AND gen3 blocks can do 700-750 awhp before u need to start thinking about block strength. all 5sfe blocks are bigger bore from the get go so its easier to start that way and not have to sleeve it for big bore sizes. this just pisses me off. i have to ask the mods to let me post a sticky about block strengths.

the block is the last thing u should blame if it cracks at less than 700 awhp unless u r on 87mm pistons in that case its 550-600 awhp still not f'n 300.

this would mean my car is running on a f'n blown block right the f now AND i am now on stock gen1 fuel and ecu, its bored to 86.5mm with a lot of good parts but the block isnt sleeved and there is no block griddle

u tell me then how the hell did josh build a 375 whp 3sgte that has over 100k miles on it and is now close to 500 whp?????? thats right, never try to say they are f'n weak.

toyota designed this engine with better metallurgy, its basically closer to high nickel steel than iron. the 3sgte came to be as an EVOLUTION OF THE 503E which powered the eagle mkiii and the jgtc supra that for several years came in 1st 2nd 3rd 4th. the one real weak piont in the 3sgte is the pistons, u will pop off a piece of the piston crown at about 300 whp even with a good tune. holy hell u are the lowest hp death i have seen so far if i were u i would shoot my tuner in the foot.

v8killer
11-03-2010, 08:28 AM
and an other thing if ur block crack on the OUTSIDE OF THE BLOCK it has nothing to do with the hp it makes even if the crack leads to the cylinders. the end.

can mods please let me post a sticky on this. its facts we want not some peoples paranoia and failed tunes.

RedRkt01
11-15-2010, 11:43 PM
Uh.....did I miss something? I think I did.

schnee
11-16-2010, 12:22 AM
No, but I think someone did -

Nowhere does it say your block will crack, merely that it has happened and Toyota was aware of it.

Those pics are two different motors. No my blocks have never cracked and I run 87mm pistons
Look carefully and you'll see one is N/A, it's not horepower related but more likely to happen

Where does it say the blocks cracked from the outside in?

The 503E is an evolution of the 3S-GE, they have very little in common, as far as I'm aware the 503E has an 89mm stroke, dry sump etc
It was developed in conjunction with TRD, Yamaha and Dan Gurney in 1986 for the 1987 IMSA Championship and used in the Eagle in 1989
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/engines/ToyotaSAfricaimage-0006.jpg
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/_MrMagoo/Cars/Toyota%20Celica/engines/2003engine_300-1.jpg

Feel free to post your findings, if they are worthy they will be stickied

v8killer
11-16-2010, 08:59 PM
yeah the 503e is more closely related t the 4tgte and it did have a lot of influence in he design of the 3sgte. not the other way around

i am glad to hear u agree on the block issue as far as it not being a power issue, and yes there may have been some defects in casting that toyota recognized but didnt do much about as 1000 blocks out of what.... 100,000 isn't a major issue. i believe it was also mostly with the lat gen2, the gen3 engines are more capable making power but the hyper eutectic pistons are still not meant to take a whole lot of abuse.

well if u look at most of the pics of ppl with cracking issues they normally crack near the water outlet area and some never see the crack lead deeper into the engine block.

sorry i thought it was u that cracked the blocks but it just gets me when people assume the 3sgt is weak, i have enough of the sr20 and 4g63 guys talking crap then to hear it here kinda throws me overboard. btw sr20 engines blow just out of random reasons even "fully built" and most high hp 4g63 engines use the 2.4l 4g64 block so F them.

wrc should say it all when it comes t the strength of the 3sgte

i just want people to stop using the weak block label so loosely as it implies the power potential to be low. also i have to find for sure if most of the cracking instances was from car that were in colder climates so far most of the ones i have seen yes.

sorry again but the 3sgte is my obsession.

v8killer
11-16-2010, 09:04 PM
oh and the 3sgte was designed by TRD and yamaha as well. :D

RedRkt01
11-17-2010, 12:24 AM
Well said defense, Killer! I'm calling you next time I have to argue with a Nissan booger.