View Full Version : Red Baron - '88 Celica AllTrac ST165

01-19-2010, 04:33 PM
On December 19th, 2009, I bought a 1988 Toyota Celica Turbo AllTrac ST165 for $2,000.00 cash.


The previous owner got her up and running after he bought it from a guy who completely screwed it up with 'modifications'.

Here is the set list of 'mods' that eventually killed her on December 28th, 2009.

- CT26 Turbo
- Front mount intercooler
- 3" piping all around
- Rear mounted marine battery..... :thumbsdow

Now, for $2k I feel I got a decent deal out of the AllTrac, except for the fact that I actually like using my cars. Because with modifications to only 1 aspect of the motor, well, you can't expect it to last for long. I just didn't expect only a week.

Currently, the Red Baron is sitting at a friends garage while we take our spare time to tear her down. Which so far has amounted to ... 1 hour of ripping apart the mess of tubes, wires, and vaccum lines you see in the picture bellow......


This is so far, irritating at best. It's like Super Mario put this thing together.

I can say though, this car will be getting the rebuild it rightfully deserves, even if that includes buying a 'new' 3s-gte and a 28r turbo. I know what I'm looking for in this car, I already have a list in hand. except for what is going to run all of it as far as computer goes..... Because the stocker wont be very friendly to the set up, and well, I'm no ATI Tuner or anything. So I'll probably be asking questions about that further down the road if I can't find answeres myself.

I am going to rally the Red Baron. With occasional Auto-Xing. But I have another car for Auto-Xing.

And now, the death of the Red Baron as it is when I bought it.


01-19-2010, 04:49 PM
Welcome to the club! It'll be an awesome car to tool around in once you have it working like you want it to.

01-19-2010, 04:58 PM
Would you mind snapping some pics of the intercooler piping & the intercooler mounting (routing of pipes, etc).

I'm going with a FMIC on my 4th gen as well, trying to get some ideas on how to route and if I should relocate the battery.


01-19-2010, 06:36 PM
I'll snap some pics tomorrow, I may or may not stay with the current routing, it's all fubar'd.

Thanks for the welcome guys.

01-21-2010, 06:27 AM
good stuff, glad to see you intend to give it the love it deserves. good luck and keep us updated mate

01-31-2010, 05:42 AM
I want to rally:tongue_1:

03-17-2010, 11:42 AM
Ok, Sorry I didn't get the pics. Hopefully I can do that in the next several days.

On to business, getting advice from outside sources is a bit harder than I expect, so I'm going to ask the community here.

I found that I had thrown 2 rods. Yea, not 1, but 2. No damage. I could machine the walls and rebuild. The head and oil pan are fine.

I'm starting this by saying that this 1st gen is no picnic. I'm not going to lie. I see alot of parts out there for the 3sgte, but most if not all of them specify 2nd gen and 3rd gen. I've seen ATS specify 1st gen ONCE.

I'm currently asking Dr. Tweak and ATS a million questions that they may or may not get to answering anytime soon because it probably wont make them money. Hopefully out of the kindness of their hearts, they'll at least shoot me down instead of not emailing me back at all.

This is where you guys come in, hopefully.

I can currently get my hands on a 2nd Gen 3sgte block with a 2nd gen head, I can get either Ferrea 1mm OS valves or stock valves that are cleaned and ground out 1mm and lapped. I can also land a stock crank, but I may go for one ATS sells. I can get Engle or stock springs, stock retainers and clips and the ATS cam gears for very cheap. I can also land the entire OEM gasket set.

Of this, would I be able to cannibalize the 1st gen motor to help put together the 2nd gen? I'm sure there is a "sort of" answer to this, so I'd like to know what I could cannibalize and what I would need to buy. So in short.... What would I need to buy?

What are the options I have as far as parts? Rods, bearings, pistons, cams, the works. I'm looking for a little more than just bullet proof. But I guess with the direction I'm moving in right now, I just want her on the road running flawlessly at the moment. From that point I'll start modifying.

Thanks guys.

03-17-2010, 01:47 PM
You asked a lot of questions there. And there are a lot fo answers. But I don't have time for that, so I'll just give you an easier solution. Buy a swap engine. It'll come with everything you need. On top of that you'll keep the accessories from the 1st gen for extras. Then you'll get rid of the original block/head.......besides, there's not much you can take out of the 1st gen that wasn't replaced/improved in the later generations.

03-17-2010, 02:20 PM
:what he said:

It would be better/easier to simply pick up a swap engine. You can find low milage JDM engines all over. Pick up the swap engine, re-wire the engine harness, drop it all in.

And all the parts wont explicitly say '1st gen'. Most of the parts are interchangeable though with other generations, just need to do some research (like the 1st gen 3sgte harmonic balancer I'm using on my 4th gen motor).

03-17-2010, 04:26 PM

Welcome! Always nice to see another 165 owner here.

From someone who has grenaded more 3sgte's than I'd recommend, honestly I would step straight up to the 2nd or 3rd gen 3sgte's from the beginning, instead of going the rebuild route (which can be very costly).

As you have already found, aftermarket support for the 2nd/3rd gen is so much better.

My recommendation is to start with the stock long block. It is pretty solid in it's form, will last to over 300whp. You could go with a metal HG if you wanted, which could give you the opportunity to do some head work like valves/springs/cams/etc. Up to you. But still keep the short block stock, unless you're going for more than 350whp+.


To answer better I think we'd need a better idea on your future plans?

03-17-2010, 07:31 PM
Future plans.... For a car that I plan on autocrossing, rally crossing, and occassionally doing road courses like Road America, Black Hawk Farms, BMW Autobauhn club, .... None really. As far as hp goes, I 'may' move it into a 400 whp range. But that's not for a really long time, but I'd like her to be strong. Like, hulk strong.

I've been hearing alot of the "go to a 2nd or 3rd gen". Also, from the prices I'm seeing, I'm financially obligated to do so as well.

So really, this car having between 250 and 350 whp is the future plan. One day I might go to 400, but with how I want this thing built, I won't have to do anything but turn up boost or switch turbo's and a tune.

I hate cutting corners. It's not how I do anything. If it's going to be a build, and if this motor is going to take this kind of hp, it's getting overdone the first time. Not just done right, total overkill.

Now, for my hp goals, I'm learning that having 1mm Ferrea OS Valves would hurt my midrange and spool. So having tooled valves is the same thing unless I'm running a 28R or something large, right?

03-24-2010, 12:43 AM
Would you mind snapping some pics of the intercooler piping & the intercooler mounting (routing of pipes, etc).

I know. This took waaaay too long.

So here we go.


03-24-2010, 04:57 AM
Thanks, that's all I needed. I couldn't seem to see where I could put the piping through my panels.

Looks like it'll be simple though, since I have the side feed intake on mine and all.

03-24-2010, 03:53 PM
^ How soon are you planning your FMIC? We'll be doing Ryan's within the month, should give ya another option to peek at. Then mine hopefully soon after.

04-22-2010, 07:09 PM
Purchased a ST215 motor w/wiring harness and ECU today. I'll be documenting this whole thing. Pictures to come as I rip out the old motor. I'll be selling a bunch of the 165 parts off it too.

WOO! I'm really excited.

09-26-2010, 07:46 PM
Got the motor out. Was getting ready to put the 215 in and I find that the flywheel AND flywheel bolts on the 215 are not there.....

The 165 Flywheel looks like it can be used, but the stocker bolts cannot be, they are too small.

Can anyone think of a solution for this?