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lalojamesliz
01-05-2010, 02:16 AM
....
im considering a 5sgte build. i have a gen3 top end i can used on it but my question is... what can handle 400-500awhp better a 5sgte with a gen3 top end or a gen3 3sgte? ill be buying a gen3 swap in a few weeks :wiggle: and will be selling the stuff i already have and a few other things on it. but im keeping the trans and complete block. ill selll the ct20b,intercooler,top end,ecu and other stuff..... but i will use that block for my build. i dont know what way to go. i found a 91 5sfe complete block minus the head that spun a rod bearing with the crank for $100 im buying the gen3 swap for sure but sould i build the 5sgte instead?

Shadowlife25
01-05-2010, 02:24 AM
Your 20B, you can give it to me. ;)

For info on the 5sgte, I can only point you to MR2oc for now.
They have done it to death over there and have tons of info.

I would like to request that you do document anything you do here though.
I feel vested in your project and have tried to help you everywhere I can, so I would love to see it in process and done. :bigthumbu

- Mario

lalojamesliz
01-05-2010, 02:36 AM
thanks for the support buddy :) ill check out the mr2 site later, the wife is complaining about me being on the labtop all day searching this site for 5sgte info :) ill give you a nice deal on that ct20b if you want it :)

extremeskillz
01-05-2010, 02:40 AM
Presure2 is member here and on 6gc and is one of the few members that have successful 5sfte builds. I would talk to him for advise as well!

joe's gt
01-05-2010, 04:22 AM
Ya pressure2 is running over 300 HP on his stock internals. I don't know what there limit is though. I can't imagine n/a rods standing up to 4-500 hp. Not to mention, the higher you go the more lag you will have to experience cuz you only got 4 cylinders trying to put out that amount of power and you need a big turbo to reach that.

rizin
01-05-2010, 04:41 AM
One thing you need to search for is the stronger 5s block on mr2oc if you are looking to push the 500+ hp range. I know it is the newer 5s block not for sure on the year range.

Everything I read about the strong 5s block it is better then the 3s block.

Edit: went looking it is the 98+ 5s block.

ChrisD
01-05-2010, 05:23 AM
One positive is that you get a 2.2L on the 5sgte. So in that respect, making bigger power will be a bit easier if the supporting mods are right. :)

There has been a lot of speculation that the 3rd gen head flows better, so theres another plus.

I say go for the 5S setup!

lalojamesliz
01-05-2010, 05:41 AM
crap i almost got a earlier block... thank alot rizin

lalojamesliz
01-05-2010, 02:42 PM
One positive is that you get a 2.2L on the 5sgte. So in that respect, making bigger power will be a bit easier if the supporting mods are right. :)

There has been a lot of speculation that the 3rd gen head flows better, so theres another plus.

I say go for the 5S setup!

from what i have read, the heads flow about the same but its the intake manifold that does the magic. i want it to make lots of power and have all the right stuff so this might take me a while to gather all the parts :( . off to the MR2oc to learn new things :)

rizin
01-06-2010, 01:23 AM
Glad to see someone else building a 5sgte on here.

Luni
01-06-2010, 01:38 AM
Yeah, if youre doing a 5SGTE, you want a later block, and to get a Gen3 head to mate correctly Im pretty sure you have to do something to the coolant passages, but I cant be trusted to be 100 percent correct.

The 5S block is stronger than ANY 3S block, the Gen3 3S block is weaker than the Gen2, and the Gen3 head (regardless of which one actually flows better) is a better head. It has a better valve configuration, it has better angles. It is better. All of the high HP 5SGTE based stuff Ive seen lately has been Gen3 lower ends (girdles, oil pans, etc), and top ends, all rounded off with a 5S block, 5S crank, custom rods, etc.

lalojamesliz
01-06-2010, 12:07 PM
thanks Luni, now i feel a little better about this build knowing i have the right parts (my gen3 top end) now i need the bottom end stuff you said including a 98+ 5sfe block. custom rods huh..... that sounds expensive :( lol. not sure if you know but ill ask anyways, does the 5sfe crank year matter? i found a crank from a 91 that is from a engine that spun a rod bearing but i dont want to get it if the later year cranks are stonger. who else besides vip09 and pressure2(?) can i ask for info on this build?

Kanoodle
01-06-2010, 12:43 PM
mrturrari, but he is never on here, maybe if you pm him he will get a email notification and reply???? But for real make a account on MR2OC they have TONZ of stuff on all sorts of builds/swaps

lalojamesliz
01-06-2010, 01:38 PM
i already have a account on MR2oc. i just want to know who to bug ;)

Kanoodle
01-06-2010, 01:46 PM
Call Luni and ask him a billion questions when you run out of car questions ask him ones about computers HAHAHA and if you want to top it off on how to cook good food then be my guest. pm me for his number :D

lalojamesliz
01-06-2010, 01:53 PM
all i could find are 1997 engines online. time to search the boards and my town then los angeles. finding the perfect block might take a while :( what is a good price for a 5sfe block?

lalojamesliz
01-06-2010, 01:57 PM
Call Luni and ask him a billion questions when you run out of car questions ask him ones about computers HAHAHA and if you want to top it off on how to cook good food then be my guest. pm me for his number :D


lol!

VikingJZ
01-06-2010, 05:37 PM
all i could find are 1997 engines online. time to search the boards and my town then los angeles. finding the perfect block might take a while :( what is a good price for a 5sfe block?

That depends on where you buy it.

I have seen 98 blocks roll through yards locally. Some at places like LKQ where the parts are really cheap.

Sang
01-06-2010, 07:48 PM
You don't need custom rods for a 5S build. 5S and 3S have the same effective rod length, so either will work fine. If you find one with a spun rod bearing, i'd suggest you use 3S rods and have the crank machined to accept the 3S rods. You'll be taking quite a bit of material off the journal, or any scores should be gone after the machine work and then you can use standard sized bearings instead of OS ones. If you find a clean, low mileage block and don't want to machine the crank, then use 5S rods and just have the crank micropolished. Either way, it'll cost about the same since forged 5S rods generally fetch a premium over 3S eagle rods which are pretty darn cheap.

If you HAD to get a earlier 5S block, get one with a knock sensor hole. I believe some people that have drilled and tapped an earlier block used to get phantom knock signals from normal engine vibrations. Been a long time since i've heard of it though, so I'm not sure if that's the case anymore.

Are you building just to build it yourself? If not, then might I suggest an ATS 2.3L block. "Core charge" is already established into their pricing so you don't need to source out a 5S block.

Smaay
01-06-2010, 07:56 PM
SSLLLOOOWWW down Turbo!!! with your HP goals, and 5S block will be just fine. just because the 98 block is "stronger" you dont need it. this is your least expensive route. go online find a 5S-FE for about 500 bucks. send the crank to ATS and have it prepped for 3S-GTE rods. get pistons and assemble. you could sell your stock bottom end to recoup some of the $$$.

im not far from you so i can help you out in any way.

Sang
01-06-2010, 10:05 PM
If you haven't found it already, this (http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=338844&highlight=5sgte+build) thread should serve you well.

Ricksta
01-06-2010, 11:10 PM
your hp goals are going to cost you big money. the fuel system you'll need will prolly cost you over a grand itself. you will def need ems plus someone who knows there shit to tune it. forged pistons and rods i a good 7-800 dollars. machine work... blah blah blah ten grand later you might be done?

its usually cheaper to just go on mr2oc and find someone who has built one up already at 500 hp and buy it for 8 grand.

Sang
01-06-2010, 11:20 PM
Fuel system will most certainly not cost over a grand. Gen3 fuel rail is beefy and stock FPR can handle it. Drop in sards + walbro 255 is all you need and will be within his goals. Isn't enough to hit 500, but more than enough to hit 400.

MrWOT
01-07-2010, 12:43 AM
550s @ 60psi will go a long way

lalojamesliz
01-07-2010, 01:17 AM
lol im not aiming at 400-500awhp to begin, that is what i want my 5sgte to run without worring that its going to blow to smithereens :) that is my power goals. I was planing on doing what Sang was saying for fuel exept im leaning towards the bosch fuel pump people use for high hp engines. i cant remember the model number right now. im not balling like some of you guys ;) so i want to build it with the best stuff i can afford right now thats why i want the stronger block. if i somehow blow that beast i wont have the cash right away to rebuild it. thats why i want to make it as bullet proof as i can. its going to take me a little time to save up for the forged pistons and whatever ems i end up running unless i sneek a few grand out of my tax refund without my wife knowing about it ;) but it will be done. on that ats 2.3l stoker... it sounds nice but i want to see first how i do getting the parts.

rizin
01-07-2010, 01:21 AM
This is just what I have paid at this point.

Well for me on price I paid 1237.55 and got cp pistons 8.5:1 for gte head and rings, eagle 3s rods, arp head and main studs and cometic head gasket. 1?? and something for bearings I can't find my recipt for them.

Then for machine work I paid 817.35 which included freeze plugs, oil galley plugs, boiled block, align bore check, decked block, cylinders bored, mag and grind for 3s rods,mains polished and balanced then he filed the rings and honed it. Thought it funny he didn't charge for honing it.

lalojamesliz
01-07-2010, 01:23 AM
oh yeah, thank you to the moderator that fixed my thread name :)

Sang
01-07-2010, 01:25 AM
If you get a bosch 044, I would suggest you get an AFPR and run higher base pressure than what is "commonly accepted" here and mr2oc. People tend to stay at around stock 42psi, or they might get a little frisky using ATS modified FPR. The best part of the bosch pump is it's ability to FLOW at higher pressure where the walbro and supra pumps just can't keep up with. 850's at 55psi is flowing 955cc/min.

PS - I plan to run 550's at 55psi myself.

Ricksta
01-07-2010, 01:34 AM
Fuel system will most certainly not cost over a grand. Gen3 fuel rail is beefy and stock FPR can handle it. Drop in sards + walbro 255 is all you need and will be within his goals. Isn't enough to hit 500, but more than enough to hit 400.

i have proved you wrong young grass hopper! go big or go home!

http://www.wolfkatz.com/proddetail.php?prod=EWKHIGHHPMR2FUEL

Sang
01-07-2010, 01:39 AM
You actually didn't prove anything. None of that stuff is necessary to meet his goals. What I posted is what is necessary, and will cost about $500 brand new. There's no point in going big if you're not going to need it. Even with 850's, spending the extra hundred on a bosch pump and running them at 55-60psi is still under a grand and he's flowing 950cc-1000cc/min.

Ricksta
01-07-2010, 01:43 AM
pfffffffffolasuidlfkasisdlfkj!!!!!!!!

Smaay
01-07-2010, 05:30 AM
yeah you dont need all that stuff and it can be aquired locally much cheaper. i do recommend the rail, but everything else you can get online. i have a wolfkatz rail on mine. but i get all my fittings and regulators from a local speed shop. i get a good price cause i spend so much there.

i still say you will be fine with any year block. but depending if i sell my All-Trac as a rolling chassis, i might have the fully built engine for sale too, and it will be much cheaper. i spent over 6500 on just the engine, id sell it for 4000. it has less than 300 miles on it

lburner
01-07-2010, 05:33 AM
http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=31752

Ricksta
01-07-2010, 05:59 AM
http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=31752

jesus.

after i realized how much it costs to build a damn 4 banger i decided if i ever do this again it'll be a freakin muscle car. sooooo much cheaper to build.

lalojamesliz
01-07-2010, 09:39 PM
anyone know if the year for the 5sfe crank matters? i bought a 91 5sfe block that has the crank,rods and pistons that spun a rod bearing for $20. im not sure if if the crank is the one i need but hey it was only $20 :)

Smaay
01-07-2010, 10:03 PM
call ATS they will know the answer to that. but im pretty sure they are all the same. I do know that for the 2ZZ stroker you must use a 1ZZ crank from a celica or MRS. the carolla 1ZZ crank is different

rizin
01-07-2010, 10:50 PM
All the cranks are the same the diffrence is the newer ones have the balancer shaft gear on them. Some guys take them off some don't. That is the only diffrence.

Kanoodle
01-08-2010, 12:33 AM
So I have heard is don't cheap out Supra > walboro. A guy that used to be local to slc put 15-20k into having KO Racing build him a engine, he ran a walboro and the pump gave out when he was draging he leaned out and killed his new engine months after getting his build completed. :(
I been told by more then one person just go get a supra pump and you wont have to worry.. But I am not saying the walboro is a piece of shit either. Anyone have anything to add to this?

Luni
01-08-2010, 02:00 AM
I wont ever run a Walboro for that reason precicely.

lalojamesliz
01-08-2010, 05:22 AM
i was on the ats site and saw this "The 5S blocks will not clear the transfer case on celica alltrac / GT-four without significant modification" :(

Kanoodle
01-08-2010, 05:27 AM
Hit up VIP on here, he had a 5sgte in a Altrac

lalojamesliz
01-08-2010, 05:33 AM
oh yeah :) thanks Kanoodle

rizin
01-08-2010, 06:46 AM
He has pics in his build thread. You have to take some of the ribs off of the rear of the block. Here is a link showing what he did #288. http://celicatech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=30008341#post30008341

Edit: I would read his thread page 11 is when he started the 5sgte build. He has pics of the top of the block after drilling for the 3sgte cooling passages, and how he modified the oil pan to clear arp studs he documented his build very well.

lalojamesliz
01-08-2010, 06:57 PM
thanks for the help and advise so far guys

MrWOT
01-08-2010, 07:24 PM
ST215 blocks have the same revisions the 5S blocks do btw.

rizin
01-08-2010, 08:35 PM
Thanks for the info MrWOT that is new to me.

Another thing to think about is if you are going to tee off of the head for oil supply for the turbo or go another route like sanwich plate for the oil filter or oil filter relocation kit and tee off of that.

vip09
01-09-2010, 04:55 AM
ST215 blocks have the same revisions the 5S blocks do btw.


That's new to me also. But we can't go out to the junk yard and get one of those shortblocks for 50 bux.

vip09
01-09-2010, 04:56 AM
I sent you a PM. If you have any more questions don't hesitate to send me a PM.

Sang
01-09-2010, 01:51 PM
That's new to me also. But we can't go out to the junk yard and get one of those shortblocks for 50 bux.

But engine sets are ridiculously cheap on st215's still since not many people know what to do with them due to most having an auto tranny. Seen them go 1/3 the price of gen3 engines at times and if you have the resources and time to part out what you don't need...it should cost much overall to go with an st215 block.

But I agree, frankenstein engine using a larger displacement block is where it's at :)

lalojamesliz
01-11-2010, 08:59 AM
i think i found me a 98 5sfe block for $125 can you guys tell me or show me some pics of the diffrence in 98+ blocks and earlier year blocks?

rizin
01-12-2010, 12:55 AM
I have not ran across any pics on here. Here ya go.

http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=361917&page=2&pp=30&highlight=5s+block

post 47

lalojamesliz
01-12-2010, 03:27 PM
NICE! thanks rizin

lalojamesliz
01-20-2010, 06:09 PM
i called my local machine shop asking what they would charge me to resize my 5sfe crank to accept the 3sgte rods and to balance the crank and they told me $270-300??? they build all kinds of engines and they do everything to them at that place. they built the N/A engine to my friends honda hatch that makes 274whp (13:1 comp) and lots more on nitrous so i think they might know what they are doing :) so does that price sound good?

rizin
01-21-2010, 01:01 AM
Well I paid 425 to get all the internals balanced and the crank ground. Plus checked the balance on my flywheel and balancer.

lalojamesliz
01-21-2010, 01:49 AM
hmmm i wonder if they will cut me a deal if i have them do the same along with check out my gen3 head